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Thread: Fix the Wargs

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I wouldn't trust that chart at all. I log up to 4 creeps on every day and earn enough infamy on each to be put on these charts, that doesn't make me four players. It's a shame Vyxe doesn't use some of the filters he has in his other charts (in his summaries of each expansion period charts he breaks down population by percentile infamy gain... that's MUCH more accurate information about who's actually playing than these charts).
    Maybe BAOS can use Altfinder to help tell who is who? Tie certain freeps and creeps together as a single unit (player)?

    Afterall i have 4 R6's and a R7, i earn infamy on each every day, usually through quests. Are they counted as 5 separate players?
    Last edited by Exion_Blade; Apr 12 2013 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Spelling

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ssSteele View Post
    Pro golf tip!

    I still say the best way to deal with the population imbalances is to make freeps more easily accessible for pvp. Regardless on how easy it is to level doesn't take away from the fact that you need to pve in order to pvp as a freep. And virtues, and pve gear, and LI's along with store stat scrolls and whatever else is needed in min/maxing stats.

    When the balance shifts to op freeps it is to lower the bar for all those who don't have max capped virtues and the whole 9 yards in pve land to make you more competitive for pvp, coin siding as a means to shift the populations. Because of the store influencing the game this will most likely never happen since balance shifts fuels the likelihood that people will switch sides and play whichever fotm class is strongest while advancing through use of the store.
    Of course you are right but the issue is how to monotize the access and play. Your suggestion is logical but to simplistic. Yes give more access that logically would alieve the population issue but we cant expect them to take the financial hit. At this stage one of VIP main perks is moors access for freeps, you devalue that your going to have to make it up somewhere else.

    Im all eyes as to how, ive been waiting for turbine to get creative on this issue for a while. Increase the access but maintain the revenue.... Careful what you wish for, you might not like the alternative.

  3. #53
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    [QUOTE=Cassie4486;6743639]Seriously, us wargs can only do a few hundred (if that) in damage. Yes very true but you can also sprint off saving your life and stopping the freeps from gaining any renoun from you ...its about ballence if you could hit as hard and run away every time youd never die and thats not exactly fair now is it.
    I give up taking on wargs solo as they always run off (as i would too if possible) so its either me dead or wargs run away...thats just the way it is

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Of course you are right but the issue is how to monotize the access and play. Your suggestion is logical but to simplistic. Yes give more access that logically would alieve the population issue but we cant expect them to take the financial hit. At this stage one of VIP main perks is moors access for freeps, you devalue that your going to have to make it up somewhere else.

    Im all eyes as to how, ive been waiting for turbine to get creative on this issue for a while. Increase the access but maintain the revenue.... Careful what you wish for, you might not like the alternative.
    But that's just it. How do you balance a game that profits off of imbalance caused by fotm classes on a system designed to shift population balances? If that's even the case. Not to mention factoring in the argument that pvmp was and should be an optional end game for only one side. A goal to set while climbing through the depths of pve which has a direct correlation with the store.

    To be more detailed in having freeps more accessible in the moors without removing the VIP requirement I would suggest a side-kicking system that auto levels freepside while in the moors. Pvmp Virtues would be either purchasable with comms or tied to rank (pve supersedes pvmp if of greater value). Pvmp LI's designed for ettens play that advance through killing creeps (unless creeps already grant you item xp). Anything and everything that you need to do in pve land to advance your freep redesigned to be able to advanced in the moors for the moors. Since this is mostly a pve centric game it wouldn't effect the vast majority of players which leads to small steps in developmental costs.

    There's so many variables running across marketing and developing that getting too detailed would be futile. Not that this is futile mind you. Because freeps have already been given audacity, pvp related gear/LI's, and bfp. It's started to say the least.

    Which leads me to what I always say. Legendary traits with fleshed out primary and secondary roles for creepside once freeps are squared away. And back and forth the pendulum swings till the system once based off npcs mirrors that of the freeps while not mirroring the classes. Allowing both sides to pvp in order to pvp instead of forcing one side to pve in order to pvp has no real replacement in whatever predictable loss of revenue that I have to offer unfortunately.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Look it up:
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....Number%20Ratio

    I know that argument "There's lots of Flippers who always follow the winning side" sounds logical when you first hear it, but isn't supported by the facts. It's broscience, really
    The total numbers are nearly meaningless. The hordes of new Rank 2 Creeps don't have a meaningful effect on the balance vs the R10+ Creeps that switch to their ranked Freeps.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    trash
    Admit it. You play the OP side on an OP class. You're just an ezmoding freep. Stop defending yourself, cause it's just pointless.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    Maybe you need to read my post again. I state that it is a "RK like" class not a "RK". It is quite difficult to do proper comparisson with real data since tooltips does not say enough information and point is to show how badly implemented critical defense is one of the problems we face currently (lazy devs not properly checking their changes).

    But, by the way, do you deny a RK in lighting is giving several critical magnitude increases?
    The RK does have traits and skills that have a either provide higher crit magnitude or provide higher crit chance. But none of them provide a 450% increase as you claimed. If you were referring to other classes as you claim, then it might be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    Some I have found:
    Code:
    Solitary thunder 3 deep:
    +25% Fury of Storm Critical Multiplier
    + (Level x 8) Critical rating --> 680 critical
    
    4 Deep:
    Essence of Storm deals +50% damage on criticals
    Code:
    Essence of Storm: +3% Critical Chance per Battle attunement
    +100% damage on critical hits

    And then we have base damage increases:
    Code:
       Harsh Debate
    Ceaseless Argument has a 15% chance to put the Harsh Debate buff on yourself, which increases tactical damage by 15%. Lasts 20 seconds.
    Closing Remarks Epic Conclusion now increases Crit Chance by 15% and deals +15% extra damage for each of the Thunderous Words and/or Harsh Debate buffs currently active. Cooldown is also decreased. -60s Epic Conclusion Cooldown
    Again, as said above, not even close to a 450% increase which you claimed by posting numbers out of the blue. Besides two of those crit bonuses are for one single skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    Do you deny that RKs are consistenly doing 8k crits on fully audacity WLs and can crit for up to 15k on a Tyrant?
    8k hits on a ranked WL is possible, but no, its not 'consistent'. Those hits are a rarity rather than the norm. 8k hit on a WL is about 33% of their morale. If you run around in a group that has a captain and burglar your chances of those hits increase. A 3k hit from BA's VT does pretty much the same to a RK. But that is a rarity rather than the norm as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    Why do you think creeps are destroyed when you pass, because you are a good, skilled player? LOL
    It depends. In some cases its because I played well. In some cases its because the creep played badly. In some cases its because freeps have more OPs, relic etc. In some cases its due to a numbers advantage. In some cases it plainly comes down to my class having an advantage over the creep class I was fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    Back on topic as you say, either Freep DPS is reduced (moslty big criticals that are more harmful) or Creep DPS is increased, and to be like freeps it should be a lot more spiky, so Bestial claws should be doing 5ks consistenly on freeps.
    Again, exaggeration at its best. I dont think many freeps will disagree that freeps have an advantage over creeps in this update. If freeps group up and have decent heals, the creep side does not have the spike damage needed to burn through it. But stating random numbers like 5k bestial claws doesnt help an argument. Ideally I would like burst damage increase to be given to classes like reavers and BAs rather than to a class that can bail from a fight anytime they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by MordecaiKell View Post
    We can try to balance creeps but problem is in the underlying system. Caps need to be placed to protect some kind of ballance.
    I agree on this one. A cap needs to be placed on the max hit that can be made on an opponent. Ideally this should be based on the % of morale of the opponent. But its not as simple as that since a few classes like reavers, burglars, spiders etc rely on smaller magnitude, but higher number of dmg ticks and classes like RK, hunters rely on higher magnitude hits.

    Personally I think that the mechanic of freeps having lower morale/higher dps and creeps having high morale and lower dps is not sustainable. The low dps of creeps can be easily countered by stacking a few healers whereas creeps dont have a counter that is as effective against freep burst dps.

    Back on topic - I would like to see the wargs given better abilities to kill and lower abilities to escape from a fight. Right now the class works great for those that pick their fights wisely or those that play in packs. However works poorly for those that try to play the warg class like a reaver or try to fight in a RvR. It might be intentional.
    Last edited by AceDwarf; Apr 15 2013 at 11:58 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceDwarf View Post
    Personally I think that the mechanic of freeps having lower morale/higher dps and creeps having high morale and lower dps is not sustainable. The low dps of creeps can be easily countered by stacking a few healers whereas creeps dont have a counter that is as effective against freep burst dps.
    Unsustainable doesn't even begin to describe it.

    Ranked spear wardens, for example, have both higher morale AND higher damage than my spider.

    Gear swapping allows for some pretty terrible morale mechanics; like fighting an RK (Glasscannon-1) who starts the fight at 15K+ morale and then slowly swaps in dps gear as you work through his green bar. He ends the fight with around 8.5k max morale, effectively forcing you to deal with a 6.5k temporary morale bubble. For the record, in his max morale setup at the start of the fight he has slightly MORE morale than my spider and also still dishes out more DPS than I can at any time in the fight.

    The entire "creeps have more morale" setup is a bad joke at this point. And for soloing, a more "tanky" build is pretty much pointless, as the combination of inherent class heals with the new heal over time producing gear overheals the DPS I can personally put out in a more survivable build in many cases; which forces me to maximize my damage.

    We've got a warden who really tries to gimp himself; he runs with subpar jewelry and a third age on purpose (Desolates), he can overheal my maximum DPS with self heals IN RECKLESS STANCE.
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  9. #59
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    Every time I see this thread title I have to think of a certain veterinary procedure. That thought should make the wargs cross their hind legs/curl in the tail

  10. #60
    Cant solo as a warg? Duo it up.
    Granted this does mean you are now forced into a playstyle you may not prefer.
    But this is WAI.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Gear swapping allows for some pretty terrible morale mechanics; like fighting an RK (Glasscannon-1) who starts the fight at 15K+ morale and then slowly swaps in dps gear as you work through his green bar. He ends the fight with around 8.5k max morale, effectively forcing you to deal with a 6.5k temporary morale bubble. For the record, in his max morale setup at the start of the fight he has slightly MORE morale than my spider and also still dishes out more DPS than I can at any time in the fight.
    There is no temporary morale Bubble to deal with. If you burn off 6.5k points of morale in inflicted damage and, at the same time, the RK gear swapped his max morale down 8.5k (6.5k morale loss) he has in effect lost 13k morale. When you swap gear you lose morale off your max morale AND current morale.

    For example:

    Swap gear at full morale (15,000/15,000) that causes a net loss of 500 morale your morale will 14,500/14,500. Swap at anything less than full and you'll see something like: 13,500/15,000 reduced to 13,000/14,500.
    Last edited by doug01; Apr 18 2013 at 10:36 AM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    When you swap gear you lose morale off your max morale AND current morale.
    Captain Hope standards don't appear to work that way, but maybe because they only affect max morale. Wonder if there are other mechanics that work that way...

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    There is no temporary morale Bubble to deal with. If you burn off 6.5k points of morale in inflicted damage and, at the same time, the RK gear swapped his max morale down 8.5k (6.5k morale loss) he has in effect lost 13k morale. When you swap gear you lose morale off your max morale AND current morale.

    For example:

    Swap gear at full morale (15,000/15,000) that causes a net loss of 500 morale your morale will 14,500/14,500. Swap at anything less than full and you'll see something like: 13,500/15,000 reduced to 13,000/14,500.
    There is no temporary morale bubble, however, with heals it effectively plays with your % morale going from 7.5k at 50% to a 4.25k at 50%. When combining icmr on top of heals and actual bubbles this is what I'd imagine was meant by effectively forcing you to first deal with a 6.5k morale bubble. The argument would be that gear swapping specifically concerning the rk allows for the rk to build attunement while running a non glass cannon build to gear swap into a glass cannon build.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    There is no temporary morale Bubble to deal with. If you burn off 6.5k points of morale in inflicted damage and, at the same time, the RK gear swapped his max morale down 8.5k (6.5k morale loss) he has in effect lost 13k morale. When you swap gear you lose morale off your max morale AND current morale.

    For example:

    Swap gear at full morale (15,000/15,000) that causes a net loss of 500 morale your morale will 14,500/14,500. Swap at anything less than full and you'll see something like: 13,500/15,000 reduced to 13,000/14,500.
    You seem to completely misunderstand what I am describing.

    I'm not talking about an all at once full swap. It is progressive as the fight develops, one piece of gear at a time.

    Here's an example for you.

    This Guardian starts any given fight with 18.3k morale



    But as he loses morale, he progressively swaps out morale gear for damage gear. Here's how he looks after 1-2 pieces are swapped:



    This process continues all the way down to about 11.5k max morale.

    At 18.3k morale, dev strike unlocks for a reaver at 9,150 morale. But by the time you have him at 9,150 morale, his max morale is in the 11,500 range... so you actually have another 3400 morale to chew through before dev strike can even be used. And of course, his damage increases steadily as he swaps in more mastery and crit rating as the fight goes on. He basically gets the benefit of a tanky build AND a DPS build all in the same fight.

    He's certainly not alone at this. There's an RK who starts every fight at just over 15k morale, and ends fights with just over 9k max morale. I don't have to tell you that by the end of the fight that RK is capable of hitting 10k ECs.
    Last edited by Sezneg; Apr 18 2013 at 12:49 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Right, well, those are really low devastating and crits anyways. I have been hit for over 9k with a devastating hit before.
    I see that your attacks were common damage, so obviously you do not have shadow fangs equipped, another no-no.

    And who says it's only the men sitting around with their thumbs in their asses at turbine? Get over yourself and your sex, it's ignorant &&&& like that that is the problem with America today.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saromil View Post
    Right, well, those are really low devastating and crits anyways. I have been hit for over 9k with a devastating hit before.
    I see that your attacks were common damage, so obviously you do not have shadow fangs equipped, another no-no.

    And who says it's only the men sitting around with their thumbs in their asses at turbine? Get over yourself and your sex, it's ignorant &&&& like that that is the problem with America today.
    Actually, against light armor targets when an armor debuff is available, common damage out-performs tactical damage. The current meta-game has most freeps stacking tactical mitigation through gear and virtues when possible, while neglecting their physical mitigation. A single reaver sunder makes the common damage noticably higher than shadow/fire/acid. Add to that a defiler armor debuff? HUGE difference.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Actually, against light armor targets when an armor debuff is available, common damage out-performs tactical damage. The current meta-game has most freeps stacking tactical mitigation through gear and virtues when possible, while neglecting their physical mitigation. A single reaver sunder makes the common damage noticably higher than shadow/fire/acid. Add to that a defiler armor debuff? HUGE difference.
    Even without armour debuffs their physical mitigation will usually be lower than their tact mit.

  18. #68
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    I've actually started running my warg without shadowfang and can tell a huge difference. Wargs need some love in reguards to dps. I feel like I'm a declawed kitten batting around a ball of yarn sometimes

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Actually, against light armor targets when an armor debuff is available, common damage out-performs tactical damage. The current meta-game has most freeps stacking tactical mitigation through gear and virtues when possible, while neglecting their physical mitigation. A single reaver sunder makes the common damage noticably higher than shadow/fire/acid. Add to that a defiler armor debuff? HUGE difference.
    This is gonna be for Nimrodel specifically


    Reavers dont run out into a fraid to apply a sundering blow debuff, its to Dev a dev strike on a target at 1/2health and get a kill in a grams camp. So its probably better for us to trait shadow/fire damage. Also our fraids tend to stack 4-5 rows of buffs, and our craids tend to be r0-r5 and dont know what buffs are.



    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Even without armour debuffs their physical mitigation will usually be lower than their tact mit.

    Ooh right, i forgot about this update^
    Last edited by myforumacc2; May 22 2013 at 01:14 PM.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    There is no temporary morale Bubble to deal with. If you burn off 6.5k points of morale in inflicted damage and, at the same time, the RK gear swapped his max morale down 8.5k (6.5k morale loss) he has in effect lost 13k morale. When you swap gear you lose morale off your max morale AND current morale.

    For example:

    Swap gear at full morale (15,000/15,000) that causes a net loss of 500 morale your morale will 14,500/14,500
    So does the first RK fall over and die? if he had 20k morale, you took -12k off his health bar, he switches to 8k morale

    8k - 12k = -4k


    ./fallsoveranddies?

  21. #71
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    Question lul wut?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    Sure, and that's why you talk about RK skills like EC and attunement.



    You wargs have been easymoding nubs and freeps for a long time, choosing your fights and using bugged pots, brands and mord brands.
    Maybe you thought the class was so easy as that but no, you need some skill and effort now.

    Good wargs on my server still can do several solo kills/day, and most of wargs still go in packs.

    Stealth classes must be weak, specially if this classes means 30-40% of creep population and have best running capabilities ever.
    Thanks for the laugh! Unbelievable stuff. A Run-keeper throwing the ezmoding 'gauntlet' at a creep, no matter the class, is just...hahahah...omg, I seriously can't stop laughing...ahahahahaa

  22. #72
    NOOOO!

    Don't fix the wargs! How will we ever have new warg puppies to join our ranks?

    But on a serious note, I honestly don't mind if my class is weaker. Maybe this way all the FOTM puppies will roll another class. I'm a warg for life. I love it, even when it explodes. I am also tired of hearing how OP wargs are from the freeps. If having wargs spontaneously combust will make the freeps complain about another creep class instead, I'm all for it. I'm still having fun, and it's not nearly as bad as it was at Moria's release. Yes, I survived Moria, somehow. As long as it's never as bad as it was then, then I'm at peace.

    Now if only Turbine would add a spontaneous combustion animation....That would be amusing!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    We've got a warden who really tries to gimp himself; he runs with subpar jewelry and a third age on purpose (Desolates), he can overheal my maximum DPS with self heals IN RECKLESS STANCE.
    Wait, DESOLATESS!!!!!!! Try wearing cosmetics yo, such a fashionable way to flip creeps off xD

 

 
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