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Thread: Fix the Wargs

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    Oh yeah, a balanced book like RoR.
    So balanced that creeps need to OOC call every freep in the map just to get some easy points.

    You want balance?
    Start removing maps, horses and march.
    None of what you just said has anything to do with the balance between Freeps and Creeps.

    It just sounds like the QQ of someone who got zerged. Sorry mate it happens to everyone but that's human nature not bad game design.
    "the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best" - Henry VanDyke

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    Oh yeah, a balanced book like RoR.
    So balanced that creeps need to OOC call every freep in the map just to get some easy points.

    You want balance?
    Start removing maps, horses and march.
    Wait. What?

    Somehow removing Maps, Mounts, and March will make things balanced?

    Mechanically, RoR was as close to balanced as it's been in a long time. The numbers difference were because all the people who had been facerolling Freepside in RoI switched sides. Probably some folk coming back to Creepside too, who had gotten tired of being facerolled through RoI.

    Don't confuse mechanics with populations.

    Don't confuse people's behavior with balance.

    They are not the same thing.

    But thank you for being clear on your perspective on balance.
    Hobbits . . .
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  3. #28
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    Well, balance between what?

    1vs1 fights?
    RvsR fights?

    First think about the chances that a 1vs1 fight will be 1vs1.

    There is no possible balance without mirror classes in freep/creep side, and same mobility chances.

    If you can't understand this please dont troll-quote me.

    /hugs
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  4. #29
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    And yes, freeps know what creeps think about RoR balance.

    Top creeps making 25k against top freeps making 8k.

    If the map is a continuous zerg because all people wants to play creep for the EM, this is no balance for me.
    I don't think either now things are OK but buffing stealth classes won't fix anything.

    You ask for balance now, but most of you didn't complain in early RoR when creep side was doing 3x points freeps did, and now in RoR creeps stay in his caves or log freep to farm poor questers.

    I'm here for the PvP, I'm not a big fan of 2-shooting creeps either, but thats not very different of being ooc called and having 10 creeps on you in 10 seconds.

    So again, you want balance?

    First lets have all the same mobility options and then mirror classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksjock View Post
    It just sounds like the QQ of someone who got zerged. Sorry mate it happens to everyone but that's human nature not bad game design.


    I don't mind to die, so zerg is not a problem for me, but not killing anything is.
    Game design is everything, sometime you will be as old as I am and then you will understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Don't confuse people's behavior with balance.


    So you suggest to trust on people's behaviour to achieve balance?

    I better trust on game mechanics, thanks.
    Last edited by TiNdA-LoS; Apr 11 2013 at 09:08 AM.
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  5. #30
    The best way to balance the Moors would be to apply a -x% DPS/HPS Modifier to Freeps:

    PvE DPS/HPS - x% = PvP DPS/HPS

    Creeps should then have the same Morale/Migitations as Freeps as well as DPS/HPS equal to Freep PvP DPS/HPS

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    The best way to balance the Moors would be to apply a -x% DPS/HPS Modifier to Freeps
    This won't work either because you cant compare champions/minstrels to hunters.
    You can reduce champs dps and they still will own the Moors while if you do the same reduction with hunters they will be warg food.

    You buff all the creeps and reavers would be god mode while WL maybe balanced.
    But balanced to what? 1vs1? RvsR?

    Classes are so different and the game is PvE focussed so balance is hard to get.


    Under my point of view ranked reavers are in a good spot now.
    Why?

    Because they can kill my r12 runekeeper.

    But if they fight against a minstrel, loremaster, champion or warden they won't have a chance.
    And if I'm heals traited and healing an small group I will be able to outheal all his dps, so no balance there either.

    There is no easy solution for the balance.
    [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/6rpe.jpg[/IMG][FONT=Verdana]
    Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Felathurin aka Brunt)[/FONT]

  7. #32
    This class imbalance is exactly what the revamps should adress

    I'm talking about the best fix to side imbalance, different DPS, HPS, Morale, Migitations don't work because the grass on the other side is always greener, so the best way is to equalize everything

  8. #33
    There are some fairly sound ways balance could be massively improved.

    That said there is an apparent forumula at work here. Over buff, people switch, sales are made, re-buff, balance swings, people switch, more sales are made. Repeat.

    Does anyone think they want quality gaming? :P They want ya money honey.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    And yes, freeps know what creeps think about RoR balance.

    Top creeps making 25k against top freeps making 8k.

    If the map is a continuous zerg because all people wants to play creep for the EM, this is no balance for me.
    I don't think either now things are OK but buffing stealth classes won't fix anything.

    You ask for balance now, but most of you didn't complain in early RoR when creep side was doing 3x points freeps did, and now in RoR creeps stay in his caves or log freep to farm poor questers.
    And here we go again with comparing total Infamy Gain vs total Renown Gain and coming to the conclusion that the game is somehow mechanically imbalanced because of something that is entirely the result of disparate numbers.

    You can napalm the straw man all you want, but he'll still be made of straw.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    I'm here for the PvP, I'm not a big fan of 2-shooting creeps either, but thats not very different of being ooc called and having 10 creeps on you in 10 seconds.
    Not the same thing at all. Taking out your target in two shots is the result of a broken game mechanic. Getting over-run by 10 opponents is the result of better organization their part.

    Don't conflate the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    So again, you want balance?

    First lets have all the same mobility options and then mirror classes.
    Mobility is an issue, but it's not as big a one as you, and others, make it out to be.

    I will also point out that the difference in mobility is something that differentiates the sides. Making them exactly the same won't improve overall game play.

    As for mirror classes, it's not entirely required.

    What is required is having the same set of capabilities on each side, whether they are in mirror classes or not.

    That's something we don't have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiNdA-LoS View Post
    So you suggest to trust on people's behaviour to achieve balance?

    I better trust on game mechanics, thanks.[/FONT]
    Except your "trust the game mechanics" in this context translates to "lets make one side vastly more powerful than the other."

    If you were suggesting some sort of scaled Outnumbered Buff that was actually meaningful, and (please listen carefully to these words, OK?) affected both sides equally as the situation changed, I would be with you all the way.

    Buffing either side to deal with a population dynamics issue is just dealing with a symptom, and will reinforce the problem, not fix it.
    Hobbits . . .
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    And here we go again with comparing total Infamy Gain vs total Renown Gain and coming to the conclusion that the game is somehow mechanically imbalanced because of something that is entirely the result of disparate numbers.
    In fact, he isn't comparing total reknown/infamy gain, but rather top reknown/infamy per players. However, the solution to that problem is - assuming we had balanced fights , but at the same time imbalance in reknown/infamy gain - to make buffs easier accessable for the side that gains less on average

    Also

    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Except your "trust the game mechanics" in this context translates to "lets make one side vastly more powerful than the other."

    If you were suggesting some sort of scaled Outnumbered Buff that was actually meaningful, and (please listen carefully to these words, OK?) affected both sides equally as the situation changed, I would be with you all the way.

    Buffing either side to deal with a population dynamics issue is just dealing with a symptom, and will reinforce the problem, not fix it.
    While I disagree with your statement that it reinforces the problem, because the so-called flippers are a small minority, regardless how the balance is, population is almost always ~0,6 Freeps : 1 Creep, a scaling ON buff is definitly the fairer choice

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Now if you can help me with my wedge, Ill qq a storm for more DPS.
    For high loft, faster stop. Open your stance a bit, placing the ball to the front side of your swing through. Brake your wrist early in the swing. This should give you more loft, less distance, and reduce the roll after the ball lands

    For lower loft, more distance: Square stance, ball to the backside of your swing through, come down on the ball, breaking your wrist late in the swing. This should give you lower loft, more distance yet if done right the ball should bite when it hits.


    Now, more qq!!!

    PS: 90+/-% of all golfers never break 90. So at least in this you're in the top 10%
    Last edited by doug01; Apr 11 2013 at 01:26 PM.
    "...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    And here we go again with comparing total Infamy Gain vs total Renown Gain and coming to the conclusion that the game is somehow mechanically imbalanced because of something that is entirely the result of disparate numbers.


    Not the same thing at all. Taking out your target in two shots is the result of a broken game mechanic. Getting over-run by 10 opponents is the result of better organization their part.

    Don't conflate the two.



    Mobility is an issue, but it's not as big a one as you, and others, make it out to be.

    I will also point out that the difference in mobility is something that differentiates the sides. Making them exactly the same won't improve overall game play.

    As for mirror classes, it's not entirely required.

    What is required is having the same set of capabilities on each side, whether they are in mirror classes or not.

    That's something we don't have now.



    Except your "trust the game mechanics" in this context translates to "lets make one side vastly more powerful than the other."

    If you were suggesting some sort of scaled Outnumbered Buff that was actually meaningful, and (please listen carefully to these words, OK?) affected both sides equally as the situation changed, I would be with you all the way.

    Buffing either side to deal with a population dynamics issue is just dealing with a symptom, and will reinforce the problem, not fix it.
    Just a hypothetical here:

    In an Open PvP setting were every person from one faction is consistently facing 2,3,4, or 10x their number from the other faction how do you attain "balance"?

    1) You either introduce a mechanic that "boosts" the outnumbered faction so much that one player has a fair chance against the 2+ (what ever the current live ratio is) players from the opposite faction.

    2) You nerf/buff one side so that both sides can have a chance at winning in an numerically unbalance fight.

    IOW, 1 and 2 are the same, it's just #1 is a "on/off" situation and #2 is on all the time. In reality though, they would both play out the same on most servers; most of the time.

    Its been said before and it's worth saying again. We had 4-5 months of parity and, in general, creeps zerged the &&&&e out of everything because they never relinquished the population advantage they have in OPvP. When creeps had parity a GV camp red map moors was the norm.

    Now its not...

    Unfortunately those few creeps that like to fight on even numbers are once again at a disadvantage. I'd suggest they find a game that has instanced PvP because LOTRO and the 'Moors is OPvP and notable population imbalances must be part of the equation when balancing the factions.
    Last edited by doug01; Apr 11 2013 at 01:17 PM.
    "...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace

  13. #38
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    Learn flayer, join a group, profit.

    Wargs are quite useful when used properly.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Just a hypothetical here:

    In an Open PvP setting were every person from one faction is consistently facing 2,3,4, or 10x their number from the other faction how do you attain "balance"?

    1) You either introduce a mechanic that "boosts" the outnumbered faction so much that one player has a fair chance against the 2+ (what ever the current live ratio is) players from the opposite faction.

    2) You nerf/buff one side so that both sides can have a chance at winning in an numerically unbalance fight.

    IOW, 1 and 2 are the same, it's just #1 is a "on/off" situation and #2 is on all the time. In reality though, they would both play out the same on most servers; most of the time.
    My point is they are not the same. They are very similar, but one (1) addresses the actual problem, while the other (2) only addresses the symptom.

    Populations are dynamic. Mechanical changes to one class or another are not.

    If you buff one side or the other, that buff will be there all the time regardless of the relative population.

    You address the reason 2 is a Bad Idea(tm) in your own post. It only works on servers that have a more or less permanent population imbalance. If the populations are different, or the populations are dynamic, it's a bad fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Its been said before and it's worth saying again. We had 4-5 months of parity and, in general, creeps zerged the &&&&e out of everything because they never relinquished the population advantage they have in OPvP. When creeps had parity a GV camp red map moors was the norm.

    Now its not...
    But you know as well as I do that it was a socially driven population dynamic. Creep side had been seriously under powered for the duration of RoI, which drove a lot of people away. When the power levels were closer to balanced, people came back and many Freeps flipped when they couldn't faceroll any more.

    That shifted the population so the numbers advantage led to a Red map and GV camps. It wasn't because Creeps were too powerful. It was because Creep side players didn't have to be masochists to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Unfortunately those few creeps that like to fight on even numbers are once again at a disadvantage. I'd suggest they find a game that has instanced PvP because LOTRO and the 'Moors is OPvP and notable population imbalances must be part of the equation when balancing the factions.
    We completely agree: Population balance must be taken into account when balancing the sides.

    Where I think we may disagree is the method. I don't believe giving either side an inherent mechanical advantage is the answer.

    The mechanical balance should be such that relatively equal forces (in size, rank, skill) should lead to good fights. Imbalances that are due strictly to population should be addressed with a mechanic that is tied directly to the population and changes dynamically when the population changes. Hence the scaled dynamic Outnumbered buff.

    It won't happen, but we can hope.
    Hobbits . . .
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  15. #40
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    Cool

    Good points from just about every comment made here. But I tried everything, traited straight tactical, straight Mast/Tact & every crazy combination of what limited choices we're given.

    Still not able to do the amount of damage the freeps do, even with Shadow traited. I have maxed out audacity & soon to be lv....8 I think. I have to look. I don't have the level titles memorized.

    And another thing from the other night - those freeps (on Nimrodel anyway) have anywhere from 4-5 rows of buffs (not including any Moors ones from keeps/op's). Us creeps are lucky to have just the moors buffs & maybe 1 row of store bought stuff & maybe a buff from a WL.

    Even a brand new hunter to the moors is getting some serious buffs, even with low audacity. Plus that new field promotion? Oy vey....

    Wrecks - we'll chat next time I see you on.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    For high loft, faster stop. Open your stance a bit, placing the ball to the front side of your swing through. Brake your wrist early in the swing. This should give you more loft, less distance, and reduce the roll after the ball lands

    For lower loft, more distance: Square stance, ball to the backside of your swing through, come down on the ball, breaking your wrist late in the swing. This should give you lower loft, more distance yet if done right the ball should bite when it hits.


    Now, more qq!!!

    PS: 90+/-% of all golfers never break 90. So at least in this you're in the top 10%
    I thought for sure you were going to troll me, these are actually good tips doug. From now on between 6:57AM and 7:06 AM you are my favorite poster whos forum nick begins with a "d" and includes numbers.


  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Its been said before and it's worth saying again. We had 4-5 months of parity and, in general, creeps zerged the &&&&e out of everything because they never relinquished the population advantage they have in OPvP. When creeps had parity a GV camp red map moors was the norm.

    Now its not...
    So a Blue map and constant Grams camp is better how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    the so-called flippers are a small minority, regardless how the balance is
    I must strongly disagree.


    As for maps, if you know where the map points are, it isn't terribly difficult to avoid them, especially the ones on shorter CD's. Not a perfect solution, but the problem can be largely avoided.
    Last edited by mad_ox1; Apr 11 2013 at 08:49 PM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Its been said before and it's worth saying again. We had 4-5 months of parity and, in general, creeps zerged the &&&&e out of everything because they never relinquished the population advantage they have in OPvP. When creeps had parity a GV camp red map moors was the norm.
    There's always been a large population of Creepsiders; the increase in population was probably from the ezmoders who changed sides after ROI. Not to mention the surge in creeps + the vengeful ones that got zerged into the ground in ROI.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    I must strongly disagree.
    Look it up:
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....Number%20Ratio

    At first the ratio is somewhere around 0.53 (anything >0.5 favors Creeps), always swinging between 0.5 and 0.55. Then there's a leap in Creep population in the middle of the Chart, that's RoI, when Creepside got F2P

    The interesting stats are, while the Creep populetion was rather low at RoI launch, it leaped 2-3 weeks into U5, that Update that broke Creep Migitations and doubled Crit and Mastery Contributions from Freep gear (my RKs Crit rating jumped from 5k before U5, to 6,5k at U5 launch and 8,5k once I had the new gear - most people forget the major contribution of U5 to the RoI imbalance)

    After that leap the population stayed constant, shown in the chart (at ~0.62). Then there's RoR launch. After the initial peak (because Freeps leveled and geared up) population ratio goes down and swings between ~0.58-0.62 (that means either less Creeps or more Freeps in RoR than in the U5/6/7 period - completly against the Flippers-theory)

    I know that argument "There's lots of Flippers who always follow the winning side" sounds logical when you first hear it, but isn't supported by the facts. It's broscience, really
    Last edited by Chris91; Apr 12 2013 at 01:49 AM.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Look it up:
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....Number%20Ratio

    At first the ratio is somewhere around 0.53 (anything >0.5 favors Creeps), always swinging between 0.5 and 0.55. Then there's a leap in Creep population in the middle of the Chart, that's RoI, when Creepside got F2P

    The interesting stats are, while the Creep populetion was rather low at RoI launch, it leaped 2-3 weeks into U5, that Update that broke Creep Migitations and doubled Crit and Mastery Contributions from Freep gear (my RKs Crit rating jumped from 5k before U5, to 6,5k at U5 launch and 8,5k once I had the new gear - most people forget the major contribution of U5 to the RoI imbalance)

    After that leap the population stayed constant, shown in the chart (at ~0.62). Then there's RoR launch. After the initial peak (because Freeps leveled and geared up) population ratio goes down and swings between ~0.58-0.62 (that means either less Creeps or more Freeps in RoR than in the U5/6/7 period - completly against the Flippers-theory)

    I know that argument "There's lots of Flippers who always follow the winning side" sounds logical when you first hear it, but isn't supported by the facts. It's broscience, really
    You forgot to add the biggest factor that was added; questing for infamy and later for comms.

    Once inf for quests was introduced many Creeps and Freeps made extra toons, or cycled through all their toons, just for questing. One account might have been used but daily stats counted each toon as a separate player. Do you see the problem?

    Yes I know that Freeps did the same thing but given that it's so easy to roll a fresh Creep and go get inf; I think it's fair to say that a greater number of Creeps were cycled per account than Freeps. This toon cycling surely must have skewed the numbers toward a greater Creep population when in fact there wasn't.

    So I say, you can't draw any conclusions from that data...ever. also it's taken as the numbers per side over a whole 24 hour period. If you could break it down to hour by hour one might be able to make some actually logical assumptions but it's not, so you can't.
    "the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best" - Henry VanDyke

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Look it up:
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....Number%20Ratio

    At first the ratio is somewhere around 0.53 (anything >0.5 favors Creeps), always swinging between 0.5 and 0.55. Then there's a leap in Creep population in the middle of the Chart, that's RoI, when Creepside got F2P

    The interesting stats are, while the Creep populetion was rather low at RoI launch, it leaped 2-3 weeks into U5, that Update that broke Creep Migitations and doubled Crit and Mastery Contributions from Freep gear (my RKs Crit rating jumped from 5k before U5, to 6,5k at U5 launch and 8,5k once I had the new gear - most people forget the major contribution of U5 to the RoI imbalance)

    After that leap the population stayed constant, shown in the chart (at ~0.62). Then there's RoR launch. After the initial peak (because Freeps leveled and geared up) population ratio goes down and swings between ~0.58-0.62 (that means either less Creeps or more Freeps in RoR than in the U5/6/7 period - completly against the Flippers-theory)

    I know that argument "There's lots of Flippers who always follow the winning side" sounds logical when you first hear it, but isn't supported by the facts. It's broscience, really
    I wouldn't trust that chart at all. I log up to 4 creeps on every day and earn enough infamy on each to be put on these charts, that doesn't make me four players. It's a shame Vyxe doesn't use some of the filters he has in his other charts (in his summaries of each expansion period charts he breaks down population by percentile infamy gain... that's MUCH more accurate information about who's actually playing than these charts).


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    And here we go again with comparing total Infamy Gain vs total Renown Gain and coming to the conclusion that the game is somehow mechanically imbalanced because of something that is entirely the result of disparate numbers.

    You can napalm the straw man all you want, but he'll still be made of straw.
    I compared renown/player, not total numbers. Ofc numbers will be bigger in the wining side, your side zerging 24/24 doesn't necessarily means balance. Your warg being able to solo any freep either.



    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Not the same thing at all. Taking out your target in two shots is the result of a broken game mechanic. Getting over-run by 10 opponents is the result of better organization their part.
    Haha, nonono.
    This means MAPS, not organization.
    Creep googles again.



    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Mobility is an issue, but it's not as big a one as you, and others, make it out to be.
    Is not an issue when you are an stealth class and got plenty of maps.


    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    I will also point out that the difference in mobility is something that differentiates the sides. Making them exactly the same won't improve overall game play.
    Oh, sure.
    Making same dps in boths sides won't improve anything either.

    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    As for mirror classes, it's not entirely required.

    What is required is having the same set of capabilities on each side, whether they are in mirror classes or not.

    That's something we don't have now.
    True, I don't have the chance of running away twice every 3 minutes or choose my fights.
    Either can map instantly with my 5 friends just over 3 creeps that were OOC called and do a fast zerg to map GV again until next call.


    Quote Originally Posted by l4j View Post
    Except your "trust the game mechanics" in this context translates to "lets make one side vastly more powerful than the other."

    If you were suggesting some sort of scaled Outnumbered Buff that was actually meaningful, and (please listen carefully to these words, OK?) affected both sides equally as the situation changed, I would be with you all the way.

    Buffing either side to deal with a population dynamics issue is just dealing with a symptom, and will reinforce the problem, not fix it.
    Outnumbered buffs are so hard to apply and wont be a good solution. just imagine how it will affect to the wargpack camping the freep raid, and killing the last hunter of the row when no more creeps around.

    I prefer mirrored classes, same skills under different names.
    Some kind of sesion play maybe.
    [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/254/6rpe.jpg[/IMG][FONT=Verdana]
    Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Felathurin aka Brunt)[/FONT]

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    For high loft, faster stop. Open your stance a bit, placing the ball to the front side of your swing through. Brake your wrist early in the swing. This should give you more loft, less distance, and reduce the roll after the ball lands

    For lower loft, more distance: Square stance, ball to the backside of your swing through, come down on the ball, breaking your wrist late in the swing. This should give you lower loft, more distance yet if done right the ball should bite when it hits.
    Not a bad advice but it has its own dangers when you are messing with your wrist. It can reduce your consistency/predictability of your shots, which is something you want in order to shoot in the 80's. I prefer to fine tune distance with each club by the amount of backswing. Loft by club choice, as well as position of the your club relative to your shoulder to alter the arc yet not mess with your swing posture, fine tune the amount of release of your finish and finally, opening or closing club face.

    To the OP: using common damage is dumb as Sersi pointed out. i.e. My rk has both tact and phys mit capped in moors build, now medium and heavies will have more armour thus higher phys mits. Also, you are only r8. I hope you don't expect to go head on head against top freeps in your server. Wargs can be very powerful is used well. The truth is, they're not as simple to play as most players believe them to be (i.e. pounce claw claw claw claws sprint/hips). Definitely practice mouse turning. It will help a lot. And use CC at the appropriate times.

  24. #49
    Pro golf tip!

    I still say the best way to deal with the population imbalances is to make freeps more easily accessible for pvp. Regardless on how easy it is to level doesn't take away from the fact that you need to pve in order to pvp as a freep. And virtues, and pve gear, and LI's along with store stat scrolls and whatever else is needed in min/maxing stats.

    When the balance shifts to op freeps it is to lower the bar for all those who don't have max capped virtues and the whole 9 yards in pve land to make you more competitive for pvp, coin siding as a means to shift the populations. Because of the store influencing the game this will most likely never happen since balance shifts fuels the likelihood that people will switch sides and play whichever fotm class is strongest while advancing through use of the store.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I wouldn't trust that chart at all. I log up to 4 creeps on every day and earn enough infamy on each to be put on these charts, that doesn't make me four players. It's a shame Vyxe doesn't use some of the filters he has in his other charts (in his summaries of each expansion period charts he breaks down population by percentile infamy gain... that's MUCH more accurate information about who's actually playing than these charts).
    The chart isn't perfect (and I'd also like more filters ), but it's much better than you make it look like.

    It records the ratio of creeps to freeps that make infamy/reknown. In that it shows absolutly correct numbers, now the hard part for us is to understand which conclusions we can draw from it, and which we can't

    Players =/= Characters
    We can't say Freep Player/Creep Player ratio = Freep Char/Creep Char ratio, because we don't know how many alts a Freep or Creep logs in on average

    But what we can say is that if a Player cycles through 3 alts on average before an update, than he will most likely cycle through 3 alts after the update too, UNLESS that update gives him a reason to cycle through more or less alts

    So Freep/Creep ratio before the Update can be compared to Freep/Creep ratio after the Update

    Quote Originally Posted by ksjock View Post
    You forgot to add the biggest factor that was added; questing for infamy and later for comms.

    Once inf for quests was introduced many Creeps and Freeps made extra toons, or cycled through all their toons, just for questing. One account might have been used but daily stats counted each toon as a separate player. Do you see the problem?

    Yes I know that Freeps did the same thing but given that it's so easy to roll a fresh Creep and go get inf; I think it's fair to say that a greater number of Creeps were cycled per account than Freeps. This toon cycling surely must have skewed the numbers toward a greater Creep population when in fact there wasn't.

    So I say, you can't draw any conclusions from that data...ever. also it's taken as the numbers per side over a whole 24 hour period. If you could break it down to hour by hour one might be able to make some actually logical assumptions but it's not, so you can't.
    Just because we're unable to draw some specific conclusions, that doesn't mean we can't draw any conclusions. I never said it's possible to say anything about the absolute Creep/Freep populations

    You are saying we can't draw conclusions about absolute and relative populations (and I fully agree with you), but I'm talking about changes to relative populations. Mathematicly spoken you are talking about x/y while I'm talking about Δx/Δy

    Concerning infamy for quests we can't say anything about that, because it falls together with F2P launch, it's impossible to say from the data how much effect came from F2P and how much from quest infamy

    The Comms farming can be seen in the chart, it's the peaks at U6 launch.

 

 
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