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  1. #1

    Aggro in numbers!

    So these numbers are the damage what pulled the mob from me after firing, the gambit (and if it has threat over time waited to expire) - the test was done with a captain (no increased aggro skills were used - so no: Grave Wound; Threatening shout; and no Shadows Lament).

    I had the Trait: Terrible Visage, and the +130% Fist-Spear Gambit Threat up legacy while testing.

    Exultation Of Battle:
    ~4.400 threat unit initially, and ~4.400 every 4s for 16s (Total ~22.000 Unit of Threat))

    (5 Tests, following values i got: 19.853; 17.297; 24.987; 26.630; 21.351)

    Spear of Virtue:
    ~9.000 threat unit

    (5 Tests, following values i got: 9.551; 6.350; 9.895; 10.262; 9.679)

    Piercing Strike:
    ~5.400 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 4.036; 7.692; 4.658)

    Precise Blow:
    ~5.400 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: ~4.800; 4.727; 6.807)

    The next skills are not affected by the legacy - the aggro of fist-shield line gambits is nearly equal of aggro of same length fist-spear gambits without the aggro enhancing legacies (all of these fist-shield gambits got 1 test only)

    Surrety of Death:
    6.902 threat unit

    Brink of Victory:
    2.406 threat unit

    War Cry:
    1.796 threat unit

    War Cry seems to have same aggro as goad (but has less targets, and only frontal, also not have self heal, and evade bonus component, but proc potency)

    The two new damage less aggro skill got normal testing again... (also using them not trigger auto attack).
    These arent affected by legacy.

    Resounding Challange:
    ~4.500 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 4.146; 4.561; 5.098)

    Call to Battle:
    ~2.000 threat unit immediately, and ~2.000 threat unit in every 4s for 16s (Total ~10.000 unit of threat)

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 10.702; 12.062; 10.116)

    Additional notes:
    According Graalx:
    -All warden threat over times are 16 sec long
    -All warden threat over times stack with every other threat over time and with themselves

    -From the test it seems that aggro skills can crit (or at least u can get very different values from same aggro skill)...

    Later i will add threat leeches too, also if u have more ideas, or test from the aggro gambits above write a pm and i will add them to the current one.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by Leri927; Apr 09 2013 at 11:10 AM.

  2. #2
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    wow, thanks a lot can i just ask how you got these numbers? maby its a silly question but i'd very much like to try myslef
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    So these numbers are the damage what pulled the mob from me after firing, the gambit (and if it has threat over time waited to expire) - the test was done with a captain (no increased aggro skills were used - so no: Grave Wound; Threatening shout; and no Shadows Lament).

    I had the Trait: Terrible Visage, and the +130% Fist-Spear Gambit Threat up legacy while testing.
    So to make clear. I Dual boxed with a captain on an other account.
    I took up a spider in limlight gorge, hit it with aggro skill the toogle off auto attakc to not generate more threat via damage (and used no skills)
    Then i turend to other pc (and waited 16 if the gambit had threat over time) and begin to hit the mob - the sad cappy usually hitted the mob around 500dmg / hit (and ~1000 on critical hit XD), and continued to damage it till the mob turend on me then i toggled off auto attack, and jumped to the other pc, aggroed back the mob with wardne and begin to self heal and convinction the cappy to heal him up a bit.
    After situation establied (no danger of death) i swapped to cappy pc, and checked the plugin Combatanalysis for the total damage done by captain.
    (plugin can downloaded here: http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...tAnalysis.html)
    Then run away to reset the spider (pressed auto follow on captain) as it would take looong time to killl a such 70k spider with captains 500dmg hits XD

    Rinse & repeat.

  4. #4
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    Interesting, thanks for testing. I don't mean to contest your results with these questions, just want to establish more credibility:

    In these numbers are you including the damage your gambit did? Say, you hit Surety on the mob and waited til you figured the ToT expired. Then used the captain to do damage. Did you subtract Surety's damage from the damage the captain had to do to pull aggro? Surety is just an example.

    Passive heals would generate aggro since you're taking damage as the captain is working on pulling. Did you take off your heal proc ring, if you had one? Did you unslot Combat Positioning, if you had it?

    Aggro crits are probably possible, judging from a comment Graalx has made. I'd wager you can't see them on the combat log.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Interesting, thanks for testing. I don't mean to contest your results with these questions, just want to establish more credibility:

    In these numbers are you including the damage your gambit did? Say, you hit Surety on the mob and waited til you figured the ToT expired. Then used the captain to do damage. Did you subtract Surety's damage from the damage the captain had to do to pull aggro? Surety is just an example.

    Passive heals would generate aggro since you're taking damage as the captain is working on pulling. Did you take off your heal proc ring, if you had one? Did you unslot Combat Positioning, if you had it?

    Aggro crits are probably possible, judging from a comment Graalx has made. I'd wager you can't see them on the combat log.
    yes numbers always include damage... and befoe u ask.. yes it would possible (with better helper) to use combatanalysis on my warden too to ellimintae damage threat, but my cappy was a bit squishy and i dont wanted to see it dead. (i had combat positioning, but not have heal proc ring at all. combat positoning heals less than 100, assuming heal aggro is half of dmg aggro this should not affect the aggro numbers so drasticalls - maximum difference was 8k!)

  6. #6
    In case there is any doubt about this still, threat can absolutely crit, and each 'tick' of threat over time skills can as well. I do not know if they can be resisted though. Using EoB as the example, the initial Morale tap can be resisted, resulting in no morale tap being applied, but when i've noticed this, mobs are still aggroed on me, and held there just as well, indication the threat of EoB still landed.

    This might be a near impossible test given the rather crude ways we are forced to test things like this, but if threat, and particularly threat over time effects cannot be resisted, the lowest damage number you experience to pull aggro would be the accurate amount of threat the skill does, since anything more than this would be the result of a 'crit'.

    Since you are over-level, the limlight spiders will have an increased crit rate compared to on-level mobs. If you do more testing, I highly recommend using a signature type on-level mob, and eliminating as many sources of crit as you can, One of the Hytbold dailies that has signature mobs in the instance would be your best bet, in my opinion, since its not like you need a 70k elite for the amount of threat you are testing.

    When you include threat numbers on ToT skills, you state that the initial tick of threat is the same as the subsequent ones for the duration. Though I haven't accurately tested it, my opinion is that 50% of the total threat effect is lumped into the initial application of the skill, and the remaining 50% is distributed evenly over the next 4 ticks.

    I personally think the ~17500 dmg figure for EoB is the accurate one, and that all of the higher test figures are the result of crits, either initially, or on ToT ticks. Following this example, but rounding for simplicity sake: 1 EoB = 18000 threat. I think that the initial application of EoB applies 9000 units of threat, and the threat tick at 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds each applies another ~2250 in threat. This is not something that you could have encountered with your testing setup.

    To test something like this, one would need a dps class (hunter cue up Heartseeker, champ battle-frenzy for an instant remorseless, etc) to hit the mob with a skill that does over ~5000 damage the moment after you hit it with EoB (and not hit it again). I don't think a hit like this would pull aggro, though your numbers suggest it would. This test could be made even more accurate if a class could reliably hit for given increments from 5k up to about 12k in under 2 seconds, to see what level the mob is pulled before a subsequent tick of EoB 'hits' the mob again.



    None of this is to take away from what you've contributed in testing this. This is a very nice addition, and a few of the numbers are a bit different than the tool-tip chart would suggest, and are a confirmation of some things I've suspected but never tested. I am a bit surprised Spear of virtue out-did precise blow so soundly, and the same goes for surety of death.

    +rep.
    Last edited by spelunker; Apr 08 2013 at 08:32 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    I had the Trait: Terrible Visage, and the +130% Fist-Spear Gambit Threat up legacy while testing
    Not to devalue your tests, but don't these 2 things unnecessarily complicate your readings? Terrible Visage applies to every skill, but afaik we don't know whether it adds a constant value or a percentage. The other one only increases Fist-Spear gambits, thereby (relatively) decreasing the threat of your other skills.

    I suggest you take both off to test the "clean" or unmodified threat values.

    Nice work though! Very helpful.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I am a bit surprised Spear of virtue out-did precise blow so soundly, and the same goes for surety of death.

    +rep.
    Spear of Virtue is a fist-spear gambit, so affected by legacy. Sure, it would still outdo Precise blow without it (Precise blow benefits from this legacy too) - but difference would be much smaller.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    Not to devalue your tests, but don't these 2 things unnecessarily complicate your readings? Terrible Visage applies to every skill, but afaik we don't know whether it adds a constant value or a percentage. The other one only increases Fist-Spear gambits, thereby (relatively) decreasing the threat of your other skills.

    I suggest you take both off to test the "clean" or unmodified threat values.

    Nice work though! Very helpful.
    I think such choice of trait and legacy is rather obvious and justified. Nobody tanks without them so people naturally are interesed in the values of threat done with their natural tanking setup. Of course, it would be nice to see the numbers done without trait and/or legacies, just to better know the mechanics of threat, but the test with TV and threat legacies is the most useful for us.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Olfaran View Post
    Spear of Virtue is a fist-spear gambit, so affected by legacy. Sure, it would still outdo Precise blow without it (Precise blow benefits from this legacy too) - but difference would be much smaller.
    Without the legacy, Surety of Death would outdo Spear of Virtue. Strangely enough, I use SoD more because of the Evade buff.

    And to the OP, nice list though Call to Battle is the Threat over Time gambit, Resounding Challenge is the upfront one. Was Precise Blow tested after the ToT was done as well?
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I think that the initial application of EoB applies 9000 units of threat, and the threat tick at 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds each applies another ~2250 in threat. This is not something that you could have encountered with your testing setup.
    I think Leri927 is right about amount of initial threat and amount of ToT. Just three thoughts:
    -From my experience (same legacy/trait) Spear of Virtue generates more threat. I can't say, how much. But if i want to aggro something immidiately, i use SoV, as it has much greater chances to aggro mob immidiately than EoB.

    -EoB generates much greater threat over time, than you wrote (about 2250 per 4s). I saw many times: I lose aggro to champ, spam 2x EoB (takes some time, so champ generates even more aggro with insane dps). After second EoB mob is still on champ. I prepare other aggro skill (this time some 'light one' like SoD). And mob starts switching targets between me and champ, finnaly, after some time, attacking only me.
    Of course there are many factors that may influence that- champ can slow down dps. But what is important- I'm sure now champs with all gold gear can deal much greater damage than 4500 per 4s (equivalent of 2 EoB, if your numbers were correct). 8-9k per 4s looks much more realistic to out aggro champ 'over time', not in one spam.

    -from what i have experienced, even SoD generates more aggro than initial EoB application, and again, I agree with Leri927 numbers.

    And about method of testing- I think every warden uses legacy +130% fist-spear, and terrible visage. So I think it is better to test with them, than without (especially we do not exactly know, how much more threat generates Terrible Visage, and if it is further changed by legacy, or not).
    If you are tanking, you want to know how much threat you will 'deal', not raw numbers that are later changed by not fully know factors.

    Great Post, thanks!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    And to the OP, nice list though Call to Battle is the Threat over Time gambit, Resounding Challenge is the upfront one. Was Precise Blow tested after the ToT was done as well?
    thx for correction , i sometimes mismatch gambit names :P

    And as far i know atm precise blow not has threat over time component. It had before warden rewamp, but atm not. (if u know better then tell me i am not 100% sure in this)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    thx for correction , i sometimes mismatch gambit names :P

    And as far i know atm precise blow not has threat over time component. It had before warden rewamp, but atm not. (if u know better then tell me i am not 100% sure in this)
    It still does. Increased threat on application, slightly increased threat over time.



    As I said regarding the ToT effects, that is my suspicion based on the experience of mobs being hit for much more that 4k (by one person) within 4 seconds of me applying EoB to them, and still having aggro. I'd be happy to help conduct some tests on E if anyone sees me online, to help confirm or deny this.
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  14. #14
    My own observations would also agree with Desolates. I've generally observed EoB to be around 16k threat total and 8k upfront. My kin loves to DPS, so I have a lot of experience racing to hold over them, and I am almost 100% certain the upfront portion of EoB is a lot more substantial than 4k.

    As far as threat transfers, Rechart and I tested this out a while ago and I believe the numbers we got were something like 4k per person for aggression and 2k-2500 per person for conviction/DoW, but I definitely could be misremembering this. Aggression is definitely better, and is the best overall threat management tool if you're in a 6 man where everyone is generating some kind of aggro.

    Remember when you test EoB that you're also damaging AND healing yourself, so you're not really looking at the threat component with your numbers, since between the damage and the healing you'll easily do an extra ~2k threat without crits. And I definitely agree that it would be pointless to test these things outside of our ideal tanking traits/legacies. There's 0 benefit in knowing those numbers when you can not easily extrapolate it to what we'd really see.

    The last thing I'd like to know is if weapon damage figures into threat generation at all. I remember hearing at some point a couple years ago that the base threat of skills was based on the average damage of a guard's weapon. If that were the case, a first age would obviously be better for tanking than a 2nd age. It wouldn't be too hard to test, could just use a third age vs a second age. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about how much damage you do with your weapon, obviously that contributes to threat. I'm referring to whatever "x" is when you think of skills as being 3x or 5x threat.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    As far as threat transfers, Rechart and I tested this out a while ago and I believe the numbers we got were something like 4k per person for aggression and 2k-2500 per person for conviction/DoW, but I definitely could be misremembering this. Aggression is definitely better, and is the best overall threat management tool if you're in a 6 man where everyone is generating some kind of aggro.

    The last thing I'd like to know is if weapon damage figures into threat generation at all. I remember hearing at some point a couple years ago that the base threat of skills was based on the average damage of a guard's weapon. If that were the case, a first age would obviously be better for tanking than a 2nd age. It wouldn't be too hard to test, could just use a third age vs a second age. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about how much damage you do with your weapon, obviously that contributes to threat. I'm referring to whatever "x" is when you think of skills as being 3x or 5x threat.
    Those Threat transfer numbers were from RoR I assume? The numbers and ratios seem pretty accurate compared to what I'm 'feeling' when tanking.

    Regarding damage figures on weapons and threat gen, I don't have the exact quote at hand but basically; Graalx2 made a post about how threat gen could be compared to a base damage value assigned to a character. This wasn't a perfectly clearly worded explanation, and people assumed this value was based off the actual damage figure on a person's equipped weapon. What has proven true through testing is that this base value is simply applied based on character level. Testing for this can even more easily be done by equipping a mathom society frying pan or bree vendor weapon with laughable dps ratings. The aggro you will produce will be the same as with a first age maxed, crystaled LI set, so long as you don't have any threat legacies on it.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    It still does. Increased threat on application, slightly increased threat over time.



    As I said regarding the ToT effects, that is my suspicion based on the experience of mobs being hit for much more that 4k (by one person) within 4 seconds of me applying EoB to them, and still having aggro. I'd be happy to help conduct some tests on E if anyone sees me online, to help confirm or deny this.
    I can deny it i did test with an op guardian from my server (kurshat.. again thanks for help!), and he pulled immediatly with 4/5K+ dmges after i fired eob, so initial threat should not be much bigger than that ammount.

    Desolates, are u sure u not remmeber times when u opened with EoB from battle memory, and then normal eob (or even double eob , via potency)?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    I can deny it i did test with an op guardian from my server (kurshat.. again thanks for help!), and he pulled immediatly with 4/5K+ dmges after i fired eob, so initial threat should not be much bigger than that ammount.

    Desolates, are u sure u not remmeber times when u opened with EoB from battle memory, and then normal eob (or even double eob , via potency)?
    It is my impression as well that the EoB ticks are all equal sized. Maybe desolates is simply exceedingly lucky when it comes to threat crits?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Graalx2 made a post about how threat gen could be compared to a base damage value assigned to a character. This wasn't a perfectly clearly worded explanation, and people assumed this value was based off the actual damage figure on a person's equipped weapon. What has proven true through testing is that this base value is simply applied based on character level. Testing for this can even more easily be done by equipping a mathom society frying pan or bree vendor weapon with laughable dps ratings. The aggro you will produce will be the same as with a first age maxed, crystaled LI set, so long as you don't have any threat legacies on it.
    Yep, Back when I cared about threat numbers, and when it seemed more important to know the innerworkings of the class (lets face it, the class we know and love has become loads easier over the years, and IMO TOO easy.) I had found some stickies and other posts by Graalx2 stating how warden tooltips and threat "numbers" were calculated.

    Slightly increased threat x.5
    Moderately.... x1
    Increased... x2
    Greatly... x3

    where the multiplier was based on base damage, or the character level value. In previous posts it was thought that auto attack damage was that number, but by this quote, and how it felt when I used a higher might/mastery tanking build, is not true, there's definitely a 'constant' number being multiplied by.

    However, there's somewhat of a hole in this convention, and always has been. DoW, Conviction, and aggression all claim to transfer "Moderate" amounts of threat, however, that would mean that (n)x1 fluctuates by almost 2k considering DoW and Aggression alone.

    If I could find my old post and numbers from the 65 (or maybe 75 level cap? cant remember) I'd be able to more accurately provide a recount of my findings, but regardless, good post.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    I can deny it i did test with an op guardian from my server (kurshat.. again thanks for help!), and he pulled immediatly with 4/5K+ dmges after i fired eob, so initial threat should not be much bigger than that ammount.

    Desolates, are u sure u not remmeber times when u opened with EoB from battle memory, and then normal eob (or even double eob , via potency)?
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    It is my impression as well that the EoB ticks are all equal sized. Maybe desolates is simply exceedingly lucky when it comes to threat crits?
    Thank you for testing and confirming this, its possible the times I was really paying attention to it were threat crits, or something like that. While I certainly double stack EoB from time to time, it is definitely not a part of my normal tanking order of operations to hit 2 EoBs within 4 seconds, especially via battle memory. I was providing my opinion and clearly my observations were faulty, that you've tested and shown that my experience was wrong is great, as this does actually make me think about changing the way I do some things.

    If I can give it again, more +rep from me.
    edit: can't yet.
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  20. #20
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    Ok.. gonna toss my standard statement on this topic away and treat this as a purely theoretical discussion, kinda like if the dinosaurs existed, or life on other planets.

    I have the exact quote from Graalx (years ago) mentioned above, preserved in my new Warden Threat chart. Before he left Turbine, he said it was the same now as then.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...eat-Chart-10.1

    As others have said, frankly, if you are not tanking with the traits and LIs for tanking, you are just being silly. We have Cooky as a class symbol after all, we may as well be cooky cut from the same mold for some aspects of tanking. (After all, which gaurd tanks in OP?)

    From that, lets exterpolate on some things Leri's test shows, (plus turn my chart on its head because everyone uses EoB for main threaat and everything else below it.):

    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post

    Threat over Time
    Exultation Of Battle:
    ~4.400 threat unit initially, and ~4.400 every 4s for 16s (Total ~22.000 Unit of Threat))

    (5 Tests, following values i got: 19.853; 17.297; 24.987; 26.630; 21.351)

    Threat over Time
    Call to Battle:
    ~2.000 threat unit immediately, and ~2.000 threat unit in every 4s for 16s (Total ~10.000 unit of threat)

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 10.702; 12.062; 10.116)

    Greatly Increased Threat
    Spear of Virtue:
    ~9.000 threat unit

    (5 Tests, following values i got: 9.551; 6.350; 9.895; 10.262; 9.679)

    Greatly Increased Threat
    Surrety of Death:
    6.902 threat unit

    Moderately Increased Threat
    Piercing Strike:
    ~5.400 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 4.036; 7.692; 4.658)

    Increased Threat + Threat over Time
    Precise Blow:
    ~5.400 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: ~4.800; 4.727; 6.807)

    Greatly Increased Threat
    Resounding Challange:
    ~4.500 threat unit

    (3 Tests, following values i got: 4.146; 4.561; 5.098)

    Moderately Increased Threat
    Brink of Victory:
    2.406 threat unit

    Increased Threat
    War Cry:
    1.796 threat unit
    Kinda interesting...Threat over time seems to rule direct threat? But, if they stack, then, start with ToT, add a quick direct threat to the equation to make it stronger?

  21. #21
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    Would assume base crit multiplier for threat be 1.5? Or was the base for skills 1.25?

    Either way, my next question would be whether it applies off of the wardens translated critical rating, and whether the threat multiplier was affected by the recent critical revision.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Would assume base crit multiplier for threat be 1.5? Or was the base for skills 1.25?

    Either way, my next question would be whether it applies off of the wardens translated critical rating, and whether the threat multiplier was affected by the recent critical revision.
    I've no real answers for you as this gets very murky in terms of a way to test it. Base for dps crits is 1.5, same goes for heals, so it would follow that crit would be the same, but thats pure speculation.

    My personal observation is that threat crit is derived from your universal crit rating, but this is VERY far from a proven theory (and I've already been wrong in drawing conclusions from observations, in this very thread).
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  23. #23
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    I didn't get much in during my testing, but I was having very different results.
    I was only able to test CoB and RC on a 84 boar outside Snowbourn with a cappy kinnie.

    RC was at about 1800 Damage threat.
    (2324, 2149, 1927, 1849)

    CoB was about 5000ish after 20 sec
    (4749, 5291, 7138crit)

    So I'm sure there are some modifiers in there somewhere. Possibly in the Tactical Defense of the Boar vs your spider. I ran with no modifiers of any kind and kinnie just auto attacked.
    I'm going to have to run this a few more times as its very strange at it being so low.

  24. #24
    Very helpful, though it would be nice to have the numbers on the threat transfers as well.
    Idmel

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Would assume base crit multiplier for threat be 1.5? Or was the base for skills 1.25?

    Either way, my next question would be whether it applies off of the wardens translated critical rating, and whether the threat multiplier was affected by the recent critical revision.
    i have no clue about crit multi on threat, but:
    EOB seems to be more close to his general 20k threat (% wise) than spear of virtue to his 9k threat -> coz the eob has 5 oportunity to crit or not and has less chance to crit all of times, in meantime sov simply crits or not, so it gives more extreme values

    if u wanna figure out aggro crit multiplier i suggest to use spear of virtue as it is initial threat, and a really big chunk so u can notice the differnece

    P.s.: Sorry for my bad english i hope u got what i mean :P

 

 
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