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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well having a Loremaster present is needing a specific class, so that goes into the same logic I was using to defend Focus earlier. Now for Wrath requires a defeat response to trigger, so any situation where a defeat response is not available would be one of those circumstances I"m talking about.
    Taking every individual thing on the list will take forever. I'm sure we could dismiss each possible source of power in the game by saying "we might not have x or y". Power pots might not be available because you just ran out or are on cooldown. The player might not be familiar with power regen skills. There are fights that cause power regen to be lower. But the case where focus is as powerful as crit would be when all these factors are removed altogether(no captain NfW/SongBro/inspirePoT, no lm, no power pots, no power regen buffs, long fights, lack of fate, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I don't really agree that the crit buff is more powerful than the ICPR buff per say. I just think it's more ideal in the current state of the game, if that makes any sense. This game has become a lot easier lately, so power is just less of a concern than it used to be - since things die so much faster and hit so much softer. But I still think Focus is a worthy buff, and I do still use it when power is an issue, though those are rarer and rarer these days I'll admit.
    The current state of the game is one aspect of it. The other is what is described by myself and others: Even if the current state of the game had much tougher content and had zero defeat events,all classes still have power restore skills, still have power pots, captains would still have a defeat proc in around 30% of dev blows, and a defeat proc in nearly every single pressing attack with 3 or more targets, still have loremaster power. It doesn't matter what state of the game is, crit is 99% of the time better than focus because 2k crit is much harder to come by, and 60 power per second is not.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Apr 18 2013 at 12:57 AM.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    ...and 60 power per second is not.
    I really don't understand where those 60 power per second are coming from. Focus buff is more like 5-6 power per second.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 18 2013 at 01:39 AM.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I really don't understand where those 60 power per second are coming from. Focus buff is more like 5-6 power per second.
    It's probably from the buffed one, which is around 400 ICPR.
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    It's probably from the buffed one, which is around 400 ICPR.
    But what am I missing here then? ICPR is per minute, so a 400 icpr buff would give you about 6-7 power per second.

  5. #180
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    85 2A no crystals maxed legacy now = 340 ICPR.

    340 ICPR = 34 power every 6 seconds

    (which is how often it's given. 5.67 power/sec isn't as useful a number because it's not restored every second)
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  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    But what am I missing here then? ICPR is per minute, so a 400 icpr buff would give you about 6-7 power per second.
    Sounds right, not sure why 60 (unbuffed focus value, or used to be?) is being thrown around. I'm still a believer that focus is basically always useless, but will give it to folks who ask. I'd note that running out of power due to skill use (as opposed to debuffs) is a choice based on rotation/skill selection. The alternatives faced for those running out of power is:
    a) get focus, and use roughly 1-2 more skills per minute
    b) adjust rotation, dropping their 1-2 least impactful(or least power effective) skill usages per minute, but getting +3% crit or so on all other skills/auto attacks/DOTs/HOTs/etc

    I'll go out on a limb and say option b is the likely winner here. For the folks who have capped crit without a buff, they have built poorly (IMHO). It takes a fair bit of effort to cap crit, it generally doesn't happen as an accidental byproduct of other build choices. Your build for larger scale grouping should take into account scrolls + captain buffs. If you will cap anyway with a captain buff, you should gear for other useful things, like mitigations and masteries. A build for solo/smaller groups is different, but I don't see running out of power in smaller group runs I'm in, literally, ever, other than myself in LOM. And I'm taking the parry buff there.

    As a point of comparison to the Focus buff (~6 PPS), I was producing between 220 and 270 PPS in 5 man of Sambrog fight last night over the course of 4 runs from BB/NfW. That is ~50 PPS per person, somewhat higher on BB target(champ) and me, somewhat lower on others, which dwarfs the focus effect.
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Apr 18 2013 at 08:20 AM.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Taking every individual thing on the list will take forever. I'm sure we could dismiss each possible source of power in the game by saying "we might not have x or y". Power pots might not be available because you just ran out or are on cooldown. The player might not be familiar with power regen skills. There are fights that cause power regen to be lower. But the case where focus is as powerful as crit would be when all these factors are removed altogether(no captain NfW/SongBro/inspirePoT, no lm, no power pots, no power regen buffs, long fights, lack of fate, etc.)

    .
    You are missing my point Mrfiggle. I'm not trying to dismiss the other "possible sources of power". I'm just trying to extol the benefits of Focus, since it requires nothing specific to use and is always readily available. That is all.

    And I disagree with your analysis that NfW/SongBro/InspirePoT/no lm, no power pots, no power regen buffs, long fights, lack of fate must all be part of the equation for Focus to be as powerful as Relentless attack. We just don't agree about that.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 18 2013 at 11:25 AM.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    The current state of the game is one aspect of it. The other is what is described by myself and others: Even if the current state of the game had much tougher content and had zero defeat events,all classes still have power restore skills, still have power pots, captains would still have a defeat proc in around 30% of dev blows, and a defeat proc in nearly every single pressing attack with 3 or more targets, still have loremaster power. It doesn't matter what state of the game is, crit is 99% of the time better than focus because 2k crit is much harder to come by, and 60 power per second is not.
    Well we just disagree about that as well. Before RoR I used Focus quite a bit, and it helped me out. If you want some examples, I used it on that big troll fight, Saruman, the last fight in Foundry - even the last fight in Roots of Fangorn sometimes. And on all those occasions I had power pots and Now for Wrath traited, and it still made a real difference. So it's not a bad buff in my opinion, and certainly isn't useless. And I don't really understand why you and others think 2k crit is so great where as 400 icpr is so worthless by comparison. Chances are if you are swinging pressing attack at 3 or more targets you are going to be getting a critical with or without relentless attack up. If a loremaster is present and is sharing power, then of course you won't need focus, but that requires a loremaster to be present, and that's a big given. So I'm just not understanding your argument here.

    I think basically this isn't a thread about Focus anymore. It's more of a thread about how people like Critical Rating a lot more than they like ICPR, and that's fine. That's your preference. But I think both stats have value.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 18 2013 at 11:58 AM.

  9. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I really don't understand where those 60 power per second are coming from. Focus buff is more like 5-6 power per second.
    I herpaderped and did 360/6 instead of 360/60.....and looked at the number and made the same mistake again. Thanks for pointing it out.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    For the folks who have capped crit without a buff, they have built poorly (IMHO). .
    I don't understand why you think people who build their characters to be at 25% critical chance without our buff are built "poorly". This is an example of this kind of rigid mentality I see often on these Captain forums where builds that don't fit into a very narrow mind-set are often described in negative terms.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 18 2013 at 11:48 AM.

  11. #186
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    I'm new to the captain forums. Has it been determined yet whether he is an elaborate troll, or one of those players who builds sub-optimally on purpose just to they can play the victim card when people disagree with them?
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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gylve View Post
    I'm new to the captain forums. Has it been determined yet whether he is an elaborate troll, or one of those players who builds sub-optimally on purpose just to they can play the victim card when people disagree with them?
    Hard to distinguish. Many have him on ignore, and he now apparently has a good number on ignore, which will lessen the number of go arounds probably.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Hard to distinguish. Many have him on ignore, and he now apparently has a good number on ignore, which will lessen the number of go arounds probably.
    That suits me.

    The more people who are incapable of having a civil debate without resorting to name-calling and insulting people that have me on ignore the better. I just think it's funny that even AFTER they are aware I have them on ignore they still ceaselessly attempt to start fights with me. I think that shows who the real instigators were, and it wasn't me

  14. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    You are missing my point Mrfiggle. I'm not trying to dismiss the other "possible sources of power". I'm just trying to extol the benefits of Focus, since it requires nothing specific to use and is always readily available. That is all.
    So Focus requires nothing but a swap weapon, and is always readily available, and is useful a very slim amount of time due to the current endgame and how easy it is to apply no matter how you're traited and who is in your group. Is that your point?

    Also, I'm not saying you're dismissing possible sources of power, that's a misinterpretation of my quote. What was happening was you'd give a reason why it was possible not to rely on those sources of power in order to ratinalize situations where focus could possibly be useful.
    I'm saying there are very few situations (read next to none) where i'm grouped with a captain that isn't traited now for wrath with at least 15 second rallying cry, that would put focus buff on me to make up for that loss...on top of not having power pots, self-restore skills, and a lm in group to share power. I'm also saying, on the flip side, there are no other ways to get 2k crit in the game. My point is you have 1 of 3 readily available choices for each player in your fellowship/raid. 1. focus 2. crit and 3. parry. I'm not saying that focus isn't important in a very slim set of circumstances. I'm just saying crit is way better than focus due to supply and demand.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    So Focus requires nothing but a swap weapon, and is always readily available, and is useful a very slim amount of time due to the current endgame and how easy it is to apply no matter how you're traited and who is in your group. Is that your point?

    Also, I'm not saying you're dismissing possible sources of power, that's a misinterpretation of my quote. What was happening was you'd give a reason why it was possible not to rely on those sources of power in order to ratinalize situations where focus could possibly be useful.
    I'm saying there are very few situations (read next to none) where i'm grouped with a captain that isn't traited now for wrath with at least 15 second rallying cry, that would put focus buff on me to make up for that loss...on top of not having power pots, self-restore skills, and a lm in group to share power. I'm also saying, on the flip side, there are no other ways to get 2k crit in the game. My point is you have 1 of 3 readily available choices for each player in your fellowship/raid. 1. focus 2. crit and 3. parry. I'm not saying that focus isn't important in a very slim set of circumstances. I'm just saying crit is way better than focus due to supply and demand.
    I will agree with you on this in the current state of the game, at least where it concerns the great majority of content. Though I should point out I have been in several fights - even in today's ridiculously easy environment - where people have ran out of power even with my using Rally Cry + Now for Wrath every 15 seconds. So it does still happen, but it's usually only on fights that have some sort of mechanic that drains power at a irregular rate - so I have used focus during those in the recent past.

    And I'm sorry if you thought i was misrepresenting your quote. That was not my intent.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 18 2013 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Hard to distinguish. Many have him on ignore, and he now apparently has a good number on ignore, which will lessen the number of go arounds probably.
    Gotcha. As a matter of policy I never put anyone on ignore because all it does is confuse things and make conversations impossible to follow. I actually sort of wish we had an analog on the champ forums. As it is, we're all too agreeable and it makes things very dull.
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  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well we just disagree about that as well. Before RoR I used Focus quite a bit, and it helped me out. If you want some examples, I used it on that big troll fight, Saruman, the last fight in Foundry - even the last fight in Roots of Fangorn sometimes. And on all those occasions I had power pots and Now for Wrath traited, and it still made a real difference. So it's not a bad buff in my opinion, and certainly isn't useless. And I don't really understand why you and others think 2k crit is so great where as 400 icpr is so worthless by comparison. Chances are if you are swinging pressing attack at 3 or more targets you are going to be getting a critical with or without relentless attack up. If a loremaster is present and is sharing power, then of course you won't need focus, but that requires a loremaster to be present, and that's a big given. So I'm just not understanding your argument here.

    I think basically this isn't a thread about Focus anymore. It's more of a thread about how people like Critical Rating a lot more than they like ICPR, and that's fine. That's your preference. But I think both stats have value.
    I was a raid leader for many months during ROI and on those occasions that I did not have two captains you could always tell which group did not have it by looking at the power bars. This was not because the captains ever handed out focus, but because using either song brother or blade brother my captains could always keep their groups bars full. It did not matter if it was a high defeat response environment or not. Just the defeat responses from pressing attack were good enough plus what you were getting from song/blade brother.

    Now it is possible that my group was good at power management. But still none of those fights were anything that really needed focus on top of captain's other power return skills. Also note that I switch which brother skill I am using during a fight often.
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  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post
    I was a raid leader for many months during ROI and on those occasions that I did not have two captains you could always tell which group did not have it by looking at the power bars. This was not because the captains ever handed out focus, but because using either song brother or blade brother my captains could always keep their groups bars full. It did not matter if it was a high defeat response environment or not. Just the defeat responses from pressing attack were good enough plus what you were getting from song/blade brother.

    Now it is possible that my group was good at power management. But still none of those fights were anything that really needed focus on top of captain's other power return skills. Also note that I switch which brother skill I am using during a fight often.
    I understand that Owyz, and I did say earlier that if the Captain is sporting Song Brother + Fellowship Brother Trait Focus will probably not be needed. We agree on that and that point is well made. But I lead raids too, and sometimes Song Brother is a luxury that's not always available to me. There have been many times I had to stay in Shield Brother to keep the tank up - and it's extremely dangerous to switch into Song Brother to restore power during times like that. I know because I tried to, and the tank died as a consequence. That's why I say focus can be really handy. Because I can use it to help with power problems without giving up any of my extra healing on the tank in the process.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 18 2013 at 01:29 PM.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gylve View Post
    Gotcha. As a matter of policy I never put anyone on ignore because all it does is confuse things and make conversations impossible to follow. I actually sort of wish we had an analog on the champ forums. As it is, we're all too agreeable and it makes things very dull.
    Ignore has its uses, but is poorly implemented. There are some all-out tools that I have ignored, but also some likely nice people that simply can't effectively work within a multi-user environement. I find its easier to ignore than be tempted to reply to someone that has proven that they aren't capable of carrying on a conversation.

    I go to another website that doesn't have an ignore feature. The con there is that when the user base is being unreasonable enough, I take a few days off... and since that site is in the business of daily sales... they actually lose money by not providing controls for people to tweak their experiences there.

    If you want a good champ conversation... STOP BREAKING MY LM's CC!!!!!!!!

  20. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Gylve View Post
    Gotcha. As a matter of policy I never put anyone on ignore because all it does is confuse things and make conversations impossible to follow. I actually sort of wish we had an analog on the champ forums. As it is, we're all too agreeable and it makes things very dull.
    Fine! I shall disagree with your agreement that we agree much too much on the champ forums, and thusly will post a thread detailing the reason fight on is one of the best legendary traits we have.

  21. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    If you want a good champ conversation... STOP BREAKING MY LM's CC!!!!!!!!
    We all agree on this too unfortunately. Lm CCs just tell us which target is supposed to be killed IMMEDIATELY.

  22. #197
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    I think one of the big things here is Jeremi's play style is overly dependant upon having Shield Brother on the main tank at all times.

    That seems like the one thing that drives his (non-sensical) love of Focus, as well as his desire to build extremely heavily into fate.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 18 2013 at 03:05 PM.
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  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I think one of the big things here is Jeremi's play style is overly dependent upon having Shield Brother on the main tank at all times.

    That seems like the one thing that drives his (non-sensical) love of Focus, as well as his desire to build extremely heavily into fate.
    I have been playing this game for 6 years, and I can safely say that through all the incarnations of the captain Focus was never useful. Not even once.

    I have been through patches where power was never an issue, and I have been through patches where power was always an issue for everyone.

    In the patches where power was never an issue no one wanted nor needed nor even though about using focus.

    In the patches where power was an issue, the focus buff would somehow find its way into captains heads and other class's too who thought it would make a difference. It never did, in any situations where power was that much of an issue focus did close to nothing, and deprived that member of the group of a much more useful buff. When used on the captain It deprives the captain of extra crit rating that could be used toward more rally crys which recover more power group wide then any focus buff can.

    Focus buff also in turn has a dampening effect on it's own usefulness, if a crit buff creates more dps and thus ends the fight sooner. Then a person using Focus buff has lost dps and makes the fight last longer. The more drawn out the fight is the more power you inevitably need and thus focus becomes even less useful. Because it does not give enough power to make up for the increased duration of the battle. Furthermore for each person utilizing focus the length of the battle increases, and as such focus becomes even less useful then before. Power can never be maintained indefinitely in a battle where focus would be needed anyway, and so the general goal of said battles is to finish them before everyone runs out of power and morale not to draw them out.

    -melee skills power cost legacy will also save more power then focus ever will grant you in a fight.

    For a long time I was even a big backer of the use of power banner usually during those patches where turbine seemed to break everyone's power consumption rate. But even then focus was still useless, because there was and is always a better option. I will buy and chug power potions every time the cd is up before I will cast focus on myself in any serious manner.

    Turbine should just turn focus into its own separate group wide buff remove the legacy and be done with it.

    Because for six years it has been useless, and to be honest it will always remain useless. You know why it will remain useless? Because people build there characters with balance to withstand power cost drain. No one builds a character with complete wonton disregard for all power consumption. Not even me and I bleed power like a pool with a cannon shot through one side and out the other. I have ways and tactics of dealing with the power loss as does everyone who plays this game. Because no power equals no dps, no heals, and no tanking so we all make efforts to avoid that at all cost. The game creators had a good idea with focus, but failed to realize that no one would ever want to put themselves in a situation where they need it.
    Last edited by ydoc; May 21 2013 at 01:13 AM.

  24. #199
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    Long time no see, welcome back! =)
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  25. #200
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    I like to think of it as an reminder for people to be nice to your local Cappy. As in Focus: You just got burned! (should be the tooltip)

 

 
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