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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    And yet you put in Victory Banner only for the one side yet not for when he had Relentless buff. Right.

    Of course 1800 crit rating wont make him do double damage, but it will make 1-3 skills per minute do more than double damage, and thereby easily make up for the 340 icpr because that's 1-3 skills less per minute he needs to execute to achieve same damage.

    If the champion is out of power they aren't going to be doing much damage. If Focus is needed to maintain the champion's power, it is thereby more beneficial in my opinion than the extra critical rating is. 350 is a healthy chunk of ICPR nor worthless, and is not always trumped by critical rating no matter the circumstance if you ask me.

    And if victory banner and the critical rating buff had been enough to keep the Champ's power from going on empty I would have left it at that. But it wasn't, and I had to switch his buff to Focus to keep blue on his bar.

  2. #77
    If a rock found its way into my workshop I wouldn't call it a tool. Even though I can potentially use it to hammer down a nail, I'll still reach for my hammer because its better. And sure, one day someone might come to the shop and say "Hey bro, can I borrow a rock?". But I'm not going to start putting rocks on my shelf for those rare occasions. I'd rather have actual tools on that shelf. And the guy who asks to borrow a rock has more problems than I can fix.

    Dont get me wrong, it's nice to make the guy that still uses stone tools happy, but what if were missing out on something better because we are wasting shelf space to store rocks?

    Focus is a rock, throw it on the ground or kick it down the street.
    Last edited by Armitas; Apr 11 2013 at 05:47 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    If a rock found its way into my workshop I wouldn't call it a tool. Even though I can potentially use it to hammer down a nail, I'll still reach for my hammer because its better. And sure, one day someone might come to the shop and say "Hey bro, can I borrow a rock?". But I'm not going to start putting rocks on my shelf for those rare occasions. I'd rather have actual tools on the shelf. And the guy who asks to borrow a rock has more problems than I can fix.

    Focus is a rock, throw it on the ground or kick it down the street.
    I've never wanted a rock as bad as I do right now

    A+ for a good analogy

    I'll take focus over nothing. In that sense, compared to nothing, its hard to complain. But, compared to anything else.... I'll take anything else.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    If a rock found its way into my workshop I wouldn't call it a tool. Even though I can potentially use it to hammer down a nail, I'll still reach for my hammer because its better. And sure, one day someone might come to the shop and say "Hey bro, can I borrow a rock?". But I'm not going to start putting rocks on my shelf for those rare occasions. I'd rather have actual tools on the shelf. And the guy who asks to borrow a rock has more problems than I can fix.

    Focus is a rock, throw it on the ground or kick it down the street.
    It's not a rock though.

    It's just an ICPR buff, just like relentless attack is just a Critical Rating buff. It's no more worthless or broken than the ICPR you get from gear or relics. It's just preference really, and has nothing to do with some innate problem with the buff itself. I actually know quite a few Champions who prefer the Focus buff because they are already capped on Critical Rating for example.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    I've never wanted a rock as bad as I do right now

    A+ for a good analogy

    I'll take focus over nothing. In that sense, compared to nothing, its hard to complain. But, compared to anything else.... I'll take anything else.
    It was a silly analogy IMHO. 350 ICPR is not next to worthless as a rock would be. It's just a different tool for a different job. A better analogy would be likening a hammer to a screwdriver or something. If you need to hammer a nail (or increase critical rating) use a hammer. If you need to screw in a screw (or increase your power regen) use a screw driver.

    This utter contempt for 350 ICPR is as baffling to me as it ever has been...

    At least I'm beginning to understand why captains have a reputation for being poor on power though. A lot of them seem to have some deep-seated hatred for ICPR
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 05:55 PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    If a rock found its way into my workshop I wouldn't call it a tool. Even though I can potentially use it to hammer down a nail, I'll still reach for my hammer because its better. And sure, one day someone might come to the shop and say "Hey bro, can I borrow a rock?". But I'm not going to start putting rocks on my shelf for those rare occasions. I'd rather have actual tools on that shelf. And the guy who asks to borrow a rock has more problems than I can fix.

    Dont get me wrong, it's nice to make the guy that still uses stone tools happy, but what if were missing out on something better because we are wasting shelf space to store rocks?

    Focus is a rock, throw it on the ground or kick it down the street.
    I'd give ya rep for that, but the forums won't let me XD
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    It's not a rock though.

    It's just an ICPR buff, just like relentless attack is just a Critical Rating buff. It's no more worthless or broken than the ICPR you get from gear or relics. It's just preference really, and has nothing to do with some innate problem with the buff itself. I actually know quite a few Champions who prefer the Focus buff because they are already capped on Critical Rating for example.
    Rocks use to be popular tools but due to innovation their preference dropped off to nearly nothing. Now they are just rocks. Sure there's always some guy. But it's preference doesn't warrant the shelf space. In this day and age I think we can make a better tool.

    There's always going to be that guy in your group. At some point you just got to tell him, "dude, your build is broke".

    Those champs dont want focus because it's amazing, it's because they are capped on crit, and can't parry. Focus is the only thing you could give them. If theres no hammers then sure, give me the rock its still better than nothing.
    Last edited by Armitas; Apr 11 2013 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Rocks use to be popular tools until their preference dropped off to nearly nothing. Now they are just rocks. Sure there's always some guy. But it's preference doesn't warrant the shelf space. In this day and age I think we can make a better tool.

    There's always going to be that guy. At some point you just got to tell him, "dude, your build is broke".
    Armitas, there is nothing to waste space on a shelf with. It's just a buff we can easily have at our disposal to use when ICPR becomes an issue. And it used to be popular to believe the world was flat, but that didn't make it true. And there is absolutely nothing broken about the builds of the Champions I know who I use Focus on. It's just the simple fact they construct their characters in ways that benefits more from 350 ICPR than 1800 Critical Rating.

    350 ICPR is good. 1800 Critical Rating is good. Both are good. The fact one person may prefer one or the other based on how they build their character doesn't take away from that in my opinion.

    And to add: It may be true the occasions where Focus is actually NEEDED are rare. But the occasions where an extra 1800 Critical Rating is actually NEEDED is equally rare - so that's a criticism that can be said of both.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post

    This utter contempt for 350 ICPR is as baffling to me as it ever has been...
    It's not baffling, it's evil... pure unadulterated evil. (makes sign of the cross with hotpocket and mountain dew bottle.)
    Last edited by Armitas; Apr 11 2013 at 06:23 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And to add: It may be true the occasions where Focus is actually NEEDED are rare. But the occasions where an extra 1800 Critical Rating is actually NEEDED is equally rare - so that's a criticism that can be said of both.
    That is absolutely wrong for so many reasons. I'm fully able to keep my fellowship full on power with my power heals from Blade-brother and Rallying Cry and I would never, ever put Focus on anyone except to troll them.

    More critical rating is ALWAYS useful even if they are capped on critical chance because it adds more critical magnitude. Adding more power when you're full on power has absolutely ZERO effect.

    You're making Focus up to be much more than it actually is. It's not worthy of being on the Captain skill bars except if you want to troll other players.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post

    Those champs dont want focus because it's amazing, it's because they are capped on crit, and can't parry. Focus is the only thing you could give them. If theres no hammers then sure, give me the rock its still better than nothing.
    You added this after I had responded earlier, so don't think I was trying to take you out of context with my latter reply:

    I never said Focus was amazing. It isn't. But neither is relentless attack. Both are nifty little buffs in their respected areas. And I just don't know what to say to this notion that 350 ICPR is next to worthless. I just don't understand it.

    So I guess my question to you (and others) is why is 350 ICPR next to nothing according to you? I could understand this point of view before the Fate nerfs. Now I can't.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    .

    More critical rating is ALWAYS useful even if they are capped on critical chance because it adds more critical magnitude. Adding more power when you're full on power has absolutely ZERO effect.

    .
    Reread my post Elrantiri. I put it in caps, but I guess that wasn't enough. I said it was rarely "NEEDED" not "useful". If you want to say my posts are wrong that is fine, but please use my own words when doing so ^^

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    It's not baffling, it's evil... pure unadulterated evil. (makes sign of the cross with hotpocket and mountain dew bottle.)
    Well that would explain some things, if you feel ICPR is unadulterated evil I'm beginning to understand a little better the contempt for it now.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 06:31 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Reread my post Elrantiri. I put it in caps, but I guess that wasn't enough. I said it was rarely "NEEDED" not "useful". If you want to say my posts are wrong that is fine, but please use my own words when doing so ^^
    Right, have you ever heard of DPS races? Been in instances that require good DPS? You sound like you have not, and that may influence your statements here. High Critical rating is a must for DPS classes and especially for this class that thrives on crits (Relentless Optimism trait and creating your own defeat events).
    Your point about what is NEEDED is completely moot, which is why I ignored it. You'll never be able to prove that the buffs are needed because it could just as easily be something else. You might find Focus needed where I'd say you're a bad Captain for not healing more power with Blade-brother and Rallying Cry because that's easily enough to keep players up on power if the Captain is any good.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    If the ministrel in question is running out of power, he/she gets the Focus buff rather they like it or not. If they want the critical buff - they must first show me they can heal without running out of power (which to be fair most can). But the few players who do run out of power - I give them Focus, and in my opinion that is absolutely the right thing to do.

    More critical rating is useless if they don't have the power to put it to use.
    Actually, if you do the calculations on Minstrel healing, more critical rating is more power efficient than more ICPR at the current relative strengths of the two buffs. Minstrels have a trait that allows us to overcap our crit heals by 10%. With a Captain crit buff, I have about 20% crit chance, which is a 30% crit heal chance, meaning that more than one in four of my heals are crits. I have another trait that increases the magnitude of my crit heals, too. For every heal that I crit, that is one less skill I have to use, which is incredibly more power efficient.

    Think of it this way: My heals cost the same amount of power no matter what. With a Captain focus buff, I'll be able to use one extra heal per minute. With a Captain crit buff, I'll need to use at least one fewer heal a minute, which ultimately saves me more power.

    Example: I crit an 8k Bolster Courage on my tank. OR, I don't crit, and have to use Bolster Courage 3-4 times at 2k each to top him up, meaning I can't spot heal others in my group taking incidental damage while I'm inducting.

    The reason that Minstrels used to ask for Focus instead of the Crit for their buff is that we used to have no power return skills and we also didn't used to rely on crits for the majority of our healing (both changed with our class revamp with Isengard). As it currently stands, even the very worst Minstrel players in the game who have no idea how to use our (many and very good) power management skills will still benefit more from a crit buff than a focus buff because ultimately, critting on heals is more power-efficient than having extra icpr.
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Right, have you ever heard of DPS races? Been in instances that require good DPS? You sound like you have not, and that may influence your statements here. High Critical rating is a must for DPS classes and especially for this class that thrives on crits (Relentless Optimism trait and creating your own defeat events).
    Your point about what is NEEDED is completely moot, which is why I ignored it. You'll never be able to prove that the buffs are needed because it could just as easily be something else. You might find Focus needed where I'd say you're a bad Captain for not healing more power with Blade-brother and Rallying Cry because that's easily enough to keep players up on power if the Captain is any good.
    Yes I have been in dps races, and the occasions where an extra 1800 Critical Rating would have made the difference in a win or loss (thus why the term "needed" was applied) are rare. There is a huge difference in something being useful and needed, and if I was you I wouldn't choose to ignore such an important difference.

    I'm going to politely ignore your attempts to get personal by saying I'm a bad captain yadda yadda because I on occasion find a need to use Focus. Who would have known saying 350 ICPR is useful could have stirred up such animosity.

    If you don't like Focus, fine. Don't use it. But just because other Captains (like me) do like it and use it on occasion doesn't make us "bad". It just makes us different.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 07:04 PM.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan View Post
    Actually, if you do the calculations on Minstrel healing, more critical rating is more power efficient than more ICPR at the current relative strengths of the two buffs. Minstrels have a trait that allows us to overcap our crit heals by 10%. With a Captain crit buff, I have about 20% crit chance, which is a 30% crit heal chance, meaning that more than one in four of my heals are crits. I have another trait that increases the magnitude of my crit heals, too. For every heal that I crit, that is one less skill I have to use, which is incredibly more power efficient.

    .
    I'm sure that's true Cloudie-wan, but in the situation I described the extra 350 ICPR from Focus helped the ministrels maintain their power more effectively than an extra 1800 critical rating did. It probably depends on how the mini gears and traits, ect. I always give ministrels critical rating first, but if I notice them running dry on power - I then give them Focus.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 07:01 PM.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Yes I have been in dps races, and the occasions where an extra 1800 Critical Rating would have made the difference in a win or loss (thus why the term "needed" was applied) are rare. There is a huge difference in something being useful and needed, and if I was you I wouldn't choose to ignore such an important difference.

    I'm going to politely ignore your attempts to get personal by saying I'm a bad captain yadda yadda because I on occasion find a need to use Focus. Who would have known saying 350 ICPR is useful could have stirred up such animosity.

    If you don't like Focus, fine. Don't use it. But just because other Captains (like me) do like it and use it on occasion doesn't make us "bad". It just makes us different.
    How do you know whether it was needed or not? There's no way you can know whether the 1800 critical rating were needed or not because criticals are based on RNG. You can only assume whether it was needed or not. I know there's an important difference between useful and needed, but there's no way you can ever truly find out whether a buff was needed or not. It's basically a mathematical issue with a lot of randomizations and unknown variables.
    My point is that Critical rating is way more useful in all cases because Critical Rating gives more crits, it makes the class in question stronger and in average more efficient per skill used, and when you're more efficient per skill used you need to use fewer skills than normally, and that saves you power in the end.

    Whether you want to ignore my attempts doesn't really make any difference. A good Captain can keep their group up on power regardless of what you think or find useful, and that is yet another nail in Focus' coffin. There's no reason to put Focus on a player unless you're trying to make up for your lack of power healing.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post

    Whether you want to ignore my attempts doesn't really make any difference. A good Captain can keep their group up on power regardless of what you think or find useful, and that is yet another nail in Focus' coffin. There's no reason to put Focus on a player unless you're trying to make up for your lack of power healing.
    So basically you are saying any Captain who uses Focus to help keep power up on other group members are bad because they don't play like you.

    Well I suggest being a little open-minded, and learn Captains can do things differently than you without being "bad".

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    That is absolutely wrong for so many reasons. I'm fully able to keep my fellowship full on power with my power heals from Blade-brother and Rallying Cry and I would never, ever put Focus on anyone except to troll them.

    More critical rating is ALWAYS useful even if they are capped on critical chance because it adds more critical magnitude. Adding more power when you're full on power has absolutely ZERO effect.
    You forgot the increase to dev chance and dev magnitude from crit rating......

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Whether you want to ignore my attempts doesn't really make any difference. A good Captain can keep their group up on power regardless of what you think or find useful, and that is yet another nail in Focus' coffin. There's no reason to put Focus on a player unless you're trying to make up for your lack of power healing.
    The only way that someone is not going to be able to maintain the power healing is if they walk into a raid WITHOUT FB and/or NfW slotted. I would go so far to say that captains should NOT walk into a raid without FB slotted, because it just does SO much to improve the effectiveness of your half of the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    So basically you are saying any Captain who uses Focus to help keep power up on other group members are bad because they don't play like you.

    Well I suggest being a little open-minded, and learn Captains can do things differently than you without being "bad".
    There's being different, then there's being detrimental to the group. Focus is the latter.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    So basically you are saying any Captain who uses Focus to help keep power up on other group members are bad because they don't play like you.

    Well I suggest being a little open-minded, and learn Captains can do things differently than you without being "bad".
    It has nothing to do about whether they play like me or not, it's whether someone uses skills that are inferior or superior in order to reach a certain goal. If you want to do 2000 damage as fast as possible you can choose (among numerous ways) to do Shadows Lament and Devastating Blow or do Defensive Strike 2-4 times in a row, yet if you choose the latter you're choosing a worse (slower) way of doing it.

    There's many ways to reach goals, and some of them are better or worse than others. Through the reasons I've explained in previous posts, Focus is always (though I can bend it to only 99.99999% of the time if you insist) worse than other setups.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 11 2013 at 07:33 PM.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You forgot the increase to dev chance and dev magnitude from crit rating......
    True, though Dev is also a crit, just a stronger one

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The only way that someone is not going to be able to maintain the power healing is if they walk into a raid WITHOUT FB and/or NfW slotted. I would go so far to say that captains should NOT walk into a raid without FB slotted, because it just does SO much to improve the effectiveness of your half of the raid.
    Obviously they also need to use blade/song-brother and/or Rallying Cry to make use of those traits, but if you do that just once in a while that'll handle power issues for 99.99% of all players. The only exception I can think of is BG LT HM, and in there the usefulness of Focus buff is divided by 10 (-90% icpr in that fight), so even there our power healing skills are so much more powerful than Focus is.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    It has nothing to do about whether they play like me or not, it's whether someone uses skills that are inferior or superior in order to reach a certain goal..
    Yes it does. If I'm able to keep power up on my group members by using a technique that involves Focus that is absolutely fine and doesn't make me a "bad" captain. Focus IS a Captain buff, and the fact I use a Captain Buff doesn't make me (or anyone else) a bad Captain.

    The fact you do it one way and I do it another is what you call strategy, and everyone develops their own that best suits their own individual play style. Stop pretending because I like to use Focus that makes me a bad Captain and the fact you don't use it makes you a good Captain. That is ridiculous in the extreme. Play your captain like you want, I'll play it like I want. There is no need to try and turn this into some epeen contest about who is bad and who is good.

    I think 350 ICPR is pretty good and has it's uses. You don't. Let's just end it there, because now that this thread has devolved to name-calling think it's best it dies.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 08:59 PM.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post


    There's being different, then there's being detrimental to the group. Focus is the latter.
    Giving people who have problems keeping their power up 350 extra ICPR is not being "detrimental" to the group.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 08:59 PM.

  25. #100
    jeremi, if your group is running out of power on annuminas runs you have much bigger problems than a measley 350 icpr..

    How is it even possible to have yours ( or anyone elses ) power bar ever drop below 90% in those instances? Ever? The boss fights in there are &&&&&&edly fast, and there are enough defeat responses (about a thousand of them) that you should be a veritable battery for power to your group.

    You say that you are clueless as to why nearly ALL captains hate focus....I think the rest of us are equally confused as to why you insist on pounding nails with a rock.

    Iri

 

 
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