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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycient View Post
    Give the Minstrels the crit buff. There is no life beyond the crit buff.
    If the ministrel in question is running out of power, he/she gets the Focus buff rather they like it or not. If they want the critical buff - they must first show me they can heal without running out of power (which to be fair most can). But the few players who do run out of power - I give them Focus, and in my opinion that is absolutely the right thing to do.

    More critical rating is useless if they don't have the power to put it to use.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 08 2013 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post

    Like what's been said throughout the thread, Focus just doesn't do enough, regardless of whatever Fate => ICPR is set at.
    And what has been said throughout this thread is incorrect. 340 ICPR IS a significant amount of power regen now that Fate has been reduced, and it can be of help to players who struggle at managing their power. At least in my opinion that is ^^
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 08 2013 at 05:27 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I'm not fighting, and refuse to fight. If you think this is me fighting, I hope you never witness when I actually am

    As far as Eltrantri being "totally right" - his example was irrelevant to my point, because he said power was not a concern for him and his group. I never said Focus was a good buff for people if they had no power issues.
    He was supporting my view on the LoM traitline, not my comment on your group stuff.

    As for the Focus thing, I still think you're wrong regardless of whether you think power was an issue to your group. As hucklebarry says, 340 power is only one perhaps two heals per minute and with that perspective you should really consider the extra crit chance. If the extra crit chance give you a few extra critical heals per minute (which it will if you heal a lot - and if you dont heal a lot you wont need the power anyway), it will easily make up for that one or two heals per minute you're "missing out on" power-wise.
    The only "but" here is if the minstrel is capped on critical rating, but I think that's rather unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And what has been said throughout this thread is incorrect. 340 ICPR IS a significant amount of power regen now that Fate has been reduced, and it can be of help to players who struggle at managing their power.
    Of course 340 icpr is significant, but it is not as significant as 1800 crit rating. 340 icpr is only 1-3 skills per minute, and the 1800 crit rating is easily a handful of extra crit per minute and thereby make up for the 1-3 skills fewer per minute.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 08 2013 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    He was supporting my view on the LoM traitline, not my comment on your group stuff.

    As for the Focus thing, I still think you're wrong regardless of whether you think power was an issue to your group. As hucklebarry says, 340 power is only one heal per minute and with that perspective you should really consider the extra crit chance. If the extra crit chance give you a few extra critical heals per minute (which it will if you heal a lot - and if you dont heal a lot you wont need the power anyway), it will easily make up for that 1 heal per minute you're "missing out on" power-wise.
    The only "but" here is if the minstrel is capped on critical rating, but I think that's rather unlikely.
    That's because you and Huckleberry don't seem to recognize that Focus can be used in accordance with other power abilities to combine for a more dramatic effect - and it can make a real difference.

    More Critical Rating is useless if you have no power. And if all a character had was 1800 critical rating, it wouldn't be making much difference either. In short - you are making an unfair analysis bias against Focus.

    If I misunderstood what Furtim was saying he has my apologies. But the way it was written was somewhat vague, and certainly seemed to be comparing your views with my own.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 08 2013 at 05:11 PM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well if you were running out of power that is an extra heal you could have otherwise not used. And I admitted most combat doesn't last long enough for power to be a real issue in an earlier post - so that point is well taken and I agree with it.

    And you shouldn't look at focus in a singular sense. See it as part of combination effect you can use along with your other power tools, such as Victory Banner, Song Brother, Now for Wrath and everything else. If looked at in that context - the power regen Captains can supply to the group is pretty impressive I think and can provide a real difference to players who struggle with power consumption.

    It's not that bad of a buff, and doesn't really deserve the hatred it gets on this forum in my opinion.
    Since I already mentioned I wasn't running out of power, your first sentence makes no sense.

    And I most certainly should and will look at focus singularly becuase it is a singular effect. All the other things happen with or without focus. The ONLY thing focus does is increase ICPR over a 60 second period. Anything else you add to the equation is bias.

    I disagree with your opinion on that it actually is a bad buff. It IS a bad buff. But if someone were to ask me for it, I'd still give it to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    If the ministrel in question is running out of power, he/she gets the Focus buff rather they like it or not.
    Nah, most people would drop group once you started telling them how to play and you would be left putting focus on your bannerman while killing slugs in the shire.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    That's because you and Huckleberry don't seem to recognize that Focus can be used in accordance with other power abilities to combine for a more dramatic effect - and it can make a real difference.

    More Critical Rating is useless if you have no power.

    If I misunderstood what Furtim was saying he has my apologies ^^
    But that is the thing, the other power abilities are way more powerful either way, the 340 icpr is insignificant in that perspective. Focus in its current state will never be the difference between having no power and having plenty of power, at best it will be 1-3 extra skills per minute.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 08 2013 at 05:12 PM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    Since I already mentioned I wasn't running out of power, your first sentence makes no sense.

    And I most certainly should and will look at focus singularly becuase it is a singular effect. All the other things happen with or without focus. The ONLY thing focus does is increase ICPR over a 60 second period. Anything else you add to the equation is bias.

    I disagree with your opinion on that it actually is a bad buff. It IS a bad buff. But if someone were to ask me for it, I'd still give it to them.



    Nah, most people would drop group once you started telling them how to play and you would be left putting focus on your bannerman while killing slugs in the shire.
    No telling me what buffs I should use is telling ME how to play, not vice versa sorry

    And it made absolute sense, because your posts are neglecting the context of my posts, which is about people who are struggling with power.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    But that is the thing, the other power abilities are way more powerful either way, the 340 icpr is insignificant in that perspective. Focus in its current state will never be the different between have no power and plenty of power, at best it will be 1-3 extra skills per minute.
    Well we just disagree about that, because I don't believe 340 ICPR is insignificant, even when taken into that perspective. And IF (emphasis on the IF part) the player is struggling at maintaining their power, I believe the 340 ICPR becomes more significant to that player than the 1800 Crit rating does.

    Maybe they should bump it up to 500 or so though, perhaps that would help alleviate it's critics. I wouldn't be opposed to that - especially since it requires a legacy.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 08 2013 at 05:43 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well we just disagree about that, because I don't believe 340 ICPR is insignificant, even when taken into that perspective. And IF (emphasis on the IF part) the player is struggling at maintaining their power, I believe the 340 ICPR becomes more significant to that player than the 1800 Crit rating does.

    Maybe they should bump it up to 500 or so though, perhaps that would help alleviate it's critics. I wouldn't be opposed to that - especially since it requires a legacy.
    Do please show me which class would gain more from 340 icpr than 1800 crit rating, given they're not capped on either.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I'm not fighting, and refuse to fight. If you think this is me fighting, I hope you never witness when I actually am
    Not fighting because (as you will see very shortly on just about all contested points) Jeremi goes evasive, rather than meeting the accusation head on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    But that is the thing, the other power abilities are way more powerful either way, the 340 icpr is insignificant in that perspective. Focus in its current state will never be the difference between having no power and having plenty of power, at best it will be 1-3 extra skills per minute.
    Now for Wrath and Song Brother Inspire completely blow Focus out of the water for power restoration. Even Blade Brother Inspire is still more power than focus provides.

    Even Victory Banner did more than focus (if memory serves), AND didn't cost you parry or crit (which is why I was running it on my captank build). With what they nerfed in 10.1.... I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of using V Banner because of how little it's doing.

    And in the big scheme of things, 340 ICPR isn't all that significant, because it doesn't restore as much power per minute as you think it does. There's a very good reason why it's called the badge of shame, even with it fully buffed.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Apr 08 2013 at 08:48 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  11. #61
    You know whats sad.....I use both Command Respect and Fighting Withdrawal significantly more often than I use Focus buff and I pray to Gandalf that I never find myself in a group where people ask for Focus, unless of course we are trolling each other, then I make sure to put unbuffed Focus on them for giggles. It is also quite funny to sit in Snowbourn Tavern and buff everyone with Focus. It makes for good laughs.

    Jeremi, Focus is broken and no amount of posts from you can make sense of something that just doesn't make sense...

    And, for the record, rarely do I even trait Now For Wrath, as power is nearly limitless as it currently stands with ICPR and Blade Brother.

    Iriddian of Crickhollow

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And in the big scheme of things, 340 ICPR isn't all that significant, because it doesn't restore as much power per minute as you think it does. There's a very good reason why it's called the badge of shame, even with it fully buffed.
    It isn't useless, just generally worse than the alternatives (which are the obvious default crit for everyone other than tanks, parry for most tanks). If someone really is sitting on empty in longer fights for enough time per minute for the ~2 skills that 340 ICPR can provide power for, it is at least worth considering how many skills they execute per minute and whether the extra 2 skills provide more impact than an extra ~3% crit on all other skills executed. But the fact is, with NfW and BB up constantly, I just do not see people on empty. Even after the fate nerf. No doubt there are people who don't manage their power so that they don't run out, I've just not been running with them. And it seems odd that people would build in a way that is benefited by focus. Forgetting focus, I basically never even feel the need to switch to song brother to help with power

    That said, I'll give focus to anyone who asks for it. People occasionally have over the years, and I don't question it -- they know their build issues/play style better than I.

    I'd also note that by Turbine's rather twisted logic, the focus buff is a "better deal". Why do I say that? Assuming the equipment stat slice calculations here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gets-%28RoI%29) are still accurate, you get something like 6 slices of ICPR out of a buffed focus, and 5 slices of crit. Mind you, many think Turbine has vastly overvalued ICPR, ICMR, and Power in their equipment calculations...

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I'd also note that by Turbine's rather twisted logic, the focus buff is a "better deal". Why do I say that? Assuming the equipment stat slice calculations here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gets-%28RoI%29) are still accurate, you get something like 6 slices of ICPR out of a buffed focus, and 5 slices of crit. Mind you, many think Turbine has vastly overvalued ICPR, ICMR, and Power in their equipment calculations...
    That would explain the focus nerfs.

    It's like they're staring at the spreadsheet, making changes, but not really looking at how the players perceive those changes, especially when the changes justify already existing perceptions about skills.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Do please show me which class would gain more from 340 icpr than 1800 crit rating, given they're not capped on either.
    I said Focus would be more significant to someone who is struggling to maintain power than 1800 Crit Rating because it would help keep that person from running out of power. It has nothing to do with class or rather or not a person is capped on a stat. In short: what I was saying is giving someone a buff to help them counter a weakness that is affecting them is going to help them more than a buff that doesn't.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 01:32 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Not fighting because (as you will see very shortly on just about all contested points) Jeremi goes evasive, rather than meeting the accusation head on.

    .
    No I don't evade, I just politely ignore you when you try to veer this discussion into a personal nature. The past has taught me not to do that with you, as you constantly try to bait me with comments about me personally, as this post accurately shows

    And if I don't answer someone back promptly when they reply to one of my posts that isn't of a personal nature, it's probably just because I haven't gotten around to it, not because I am "evading" them. If you want to have conversations with me Almagnus that's fine, but just keep them of a non-personal nature that doesn't include your views about me or how I play my captain. If you do that - you will get responses from me eventually. It may not be immediate, or the day after - but eventually I'll get around to it.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 01:45 PM.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonefish101 View Post
    You know whats sad.....I use both Command Respect and Fighting Withdrawal significantly more often than I use Focus buff and I pray to Gandalf that I never find myself in a group where people ask for Focus, unless of course we are trolling each other, then I make sure to put unbuffed Focus on them for giggles. It is also quite funny to sit in Snowbourn Tavern and buff everyone with Focus. It makes for good laughs.

    Jeremi, Focus is broken and no amount of posts from you can make sense of something that just doesn't make sense...

    And, for the record, rarely do I even trait Now For Wrath, as power is nearly limitless as it currently stands with ICPR and Blade Brother.

    Iriddian of Crickhollow
    And I would turn this around and say the opposite is true. No matter how many posts people write to the contrary on this thread - 340 ICPR isn't broken, and is a respectable amount. The fact you rarely use it, just means power isn't a problem for you and the people you play with. But it's no more "broken" than the ICPR you get from relics, armor or anything else on this game. It's not a bad buff, and this hatred people have of it is really weird to me and I've never understood it.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    It isn't useless, just generally worse than the alternatives (which are the obvious default crit for everyone other than tanks, parry for most tanks). If someone really is sitting on empty in longer fights for enough time per minute for the ~2 skills that 340 ICPR can provide power for, it is at least worth considering how many skills they execute per minute and whether the extra 2 skills provide more impact than an extra ~3% crit on all other skills executed. But the fact is, with NfW and BB up constantly, I just do not see people on empty. Even after the fate nerf. No doubt there are people who don't manage their power so that they don't run out, I've just not been running with them. And it seems odd that people would build in a way that is benefited by focus. Forgetting focus, I basically never even feel the need to switch to song brother to help with power

    That said, I'll give focus to anyone who asks for it. People occasionally have over the years, and I don't question it -- they know their build issues/play style better than I.

    I'd also note that by Turbine's rather twisted logic, the focus buff is a "better deal". Why do I say that? Assuming the equipment stat slice calculations here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...gets-%28RoI%29) are still accurate, you get something like 6 slices of ICPR out of a buffed focus, and 5 slices of crit. Mind you, many think Turbine has vastly overvalued ICPR, ICMR, and Power in their equipment calculations...
    Not a bad post and I don't really disagree with much of it. I've admitted the occasions where power becomes a real issue are rarer and rarer these days, though I actually used Focus on several people the other day in one of those Annunimas dungeons because they kept running out of power. Coupled with Victory Baner and Now for Wrath, it fixed the problem - so I remain firmly of the belief this buff has its uses and does not suck.

    But in the end this debate is a lot more simpler than it seems. If you don't need the extra ICPR you are going to prefer more Critical Rating. If you do need the extra ICPR you are going to prefer Focus. It really is that simple I think.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 01:33 PM.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I said Focus would be more significant to someone who is struggling to maintain power than 1800 Crit Rating because it would help keep that person from running out of power. It has nothing to do with class or rather or not a person is capped on a stat. In short: giving someone a buff to help them counter a weakness that is affecting them in a negative way is always going to help them more than a buff that doesn't. That is what I was saying.
    That perspective has at least 2 issues:
    1. If anyone truly has power problems, 340 icpr will most likely NOT be a gamechanger, that person will still have powerissues in the very most cases because 340 icpr is low.
    2. Having less crit makes your class less powerful in very most cases, so you will need to press more skills to do the same amount of damage/healing. Therefore the focus buff works against itself especially for DPS classes. This applies even more severily to classes with power regen skills that may crit (e.g. the Minstrel Coda PoT)

    Example: Hunter has crit buff uses 1000 skills and does X damage. A Hunter with Focus buff will have higher icpr but have fewer crits (and do less damage per crit and receive fewer Focus pips from crits) and therefore will need to use more skills, perhaps even 30-100 skills more, to achieve the same amount of damage. Even if the Focus buff gives enough power for those extra skills (which I really dont think it does), it will take more effort for the Hunter because he needs to use more skills to achieve the same amount of damage.

    Having a full power bar should not be a goal in itself IMO, especially not if it stands in the way of doing your class' tasks properly.
    Also, you will most likely find that your fellow player builds his character with the perspective of getting the crit buff (that is, having about 2k less critical rating than needed to fulfill his/her wanted crit rating) and you will mess up their build by giving them a different buff. Of course that works the other way as well, but I have yet to see anyone cap crit and ask for Focus buff.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 11 2013 at 01:42 PM.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    That perspective has at least 2 issues:
    1. If anyone truly has power problems, 340 icpr will most likely NOT be a gamechanger, that person will still have powerissues in the very most cases because 340 icpr is low.
    2. Having less crit makes your class less powerful in very most cases, so you will need to press more skills to do the same amount of damage/healing. Therefore the focus buff works against itself especially for DPS classes. This applies even more severily to classes with power regen skills that may crit (e.g. the Minstrel Coda PoT)
    And I believe that is incorrect, and that 340 ICPR will make a bigger difference in a player struggling to keep his/her power up than 1800 critical rating will. I put this same argument to the test just the other day on a champion friend of mine - who was running out of power while he had the critical rating buff up. I put Focus on him and threw down my Victory banner - he was no longer running out of power.

    And 340 ICPR is no more a game changer than 1800 critical rating is. Both buffs, if looked at in a singular sense and assuming the player has no other stats, are equally unimpressive. That's why I said you are making an unfair argument bias against Focus. It's not meant to singularly make a player have no power problems, just as the Critical buff isn't singularly suppose to make a player land critical hits 25% of the time.

    It's just a nice little bonus to ICPR, and is no more broken or unimpressive than putting on a piece of gear that gave 340 ICPR.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    That perspective has at least 2 issues:
    1. If anyone truly has power problems, 340 icpr will most likely NOT be a gamechanger, that person will still have powerissues in the very most cases because 340 icpr is low.
    2. Having less crit makes your class less powerful in very most cases, so you will need to press more skills to do the same amount of damage/healing. Therefore the focus buff works against itself especially for DPS classes. This applies even more severily to classes with power regen skills that may crit (e.g. the Minstrel Coda PoT)

    Example: Hunter has crit buff uses 1000 skills and does X damage. A Hunter with Focus buff will have higher icpr but have fewer crits (and do less damage per crit and receive fewer Focus pips from crits) and therefore will need to use more skills, perhaps even 30-100 skills more, to achieve the same amount of damage. Even if the Focus buff gives enough power for those extra skills (which I really dont think it does), it will take more effort for the Hunter because he needs to use more skills to achieve the same amount of damage.

    Having a full power bar should not be a goal in itself IMO, especially not if it stands in the way of doing your class' tasks properly.
    Also, you will most likely find that your fellow player builds his character with the perspective of getting the crit buff (that is, having about 2k less critical rating than needed to fulfill his/her wanted crit rating) and you will mess up their build by giving them a different buff. Of course that works the other way as well, but I have yet to see anyone cap crit and ask for Focus buff.
    Totally agree with you here. By forcing Focus onto players that aren't asking for it, you're actually making the encounter harder for the team. That's the point both of us are trying to make, and you're just sticking your head in the sand about it.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Totally agree with you here. By forcing Focus onto players that aren't asking for it, you're actually making the encounter harder for the team. That's the point both of us are trying to make, and you're just sticking your head in the sand about it.
    No I'm not "sticking my head in the sand" about it...

    340 ICPR is more beneficial to someone who is running out of power than 1800 Critical Rating is in my opinion. The extra amount of Critical Hits that player could land in theory due to the Critical Buff does not out-weigh the extra power help from Focus in my experiences.

    Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are "sticking their head in the sand". All it means is they don't agree with you ^^

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And I believe that is incorrect, and that 340 ICPR will make a bigger difference in a player struggling to keep his/her power up than 1800 critical rating will. I put this same argument to the test just the other day on a champion friend of mine - who was running out of power while he had the critical rating buff up. I put Focus on him and threw down my Victory banner - he was no longer running out of power.

    And 340 ICPR is no more a game changer than 1800 critical rating is. Both buffs, if looked at in a singular sense and assuming the player has no other stats, are equally unimpressive. That's why I said you are making an unfair argument bias against Focus. It's not meant to singularly make a player have no power problems, just as the Critical buff isn't singularly suppose to make a player land critical hits 25% of the time.

    It's just a nice little bonus to ICPR, and is no more broken or unimpressive than putting on a piece of gear that gave 340 ICPR.
    You're doing the exact same thing (biasing that is) when you put up Relentless buff vs Focus buff and add Victory banner to the mix. Also, your goal seems still to be how much power a certain character has in his power bar rather than how much healing/damage the person has done.

    Relentless won't ensure 25% crit, but it is easily another 2-5% crit chance. For Champions and Hunters the crit magnitude is so high that a crit makes the skill do double the damage of a non-crit if not even more. If that skill is Penetrating shot or Relentless Attack, that's easily 100-200 power saved right there.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 11 2013 at 04:01 PM.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    You're doing the exact same thing (biasing that is) when you put up Relentless buff vs Focus buff and add Victory banner to the mix. Also, your goal seems still to be how much power a certain character has in his power bar rather than how much healing/damage the person has done.
    Also, given the nerf to V Banner, why would you want to take that to a group over the additional morale that Hope Banner brings.

    Even war banner in a DPS oriented group is going to be more beneficial to almost everyone involved than V Banner will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Relentless won't ensure 25% crit, but it is easily another 2-5% crit chance. For Champions and Hunters the crit magnitude is so high that a crit makes the skill do double the damage of a non-crit if not even more. If that skill is Penetrating shot or Relentless Attack, that's easily 100-200 power saved right there.
    Relentless also does wonders for HoT based healing, which is why it's basically mandatory for RKs and nontank captains, and extremely helpful for minis.

    To deny that because you can give someone more blue bar at the end of the fight seems selfish - just as selfish as the captain that wants to go into a raid and ONLY use DPS skills [taking into consideration how bad our DPS is atm].
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    You're doing the exact same thing (biasing that is) when you put up Relentless buff vs Focus buff and add Victory banner to the mix. Also, your goal seems still to be how much power a certain character has in his power bar rather than how much healing/damage the person has done.

    Relentless won't ensure 25% crit, but it is easily another 2-5% crit chance. For Champions and Hunters the crit magnitude is so high that a crit makes the skill do double the damage of a non-crit if not even more. If that skill is Penetrating shot or Relentless Attack, that's easily 100-200 power saved right there.
    No I am not doing that.

    I was trying to say when you compare them both directly without taking into effect the character's other bonuses they are both equally unimpressive. None of our tactical buffs are game changing if taken alone.

    And 1800 crit rating is not going to make a champion do double damage. That buff is no where near that powerful in my opinion. It'll add a few percents to their critical stats, which isn't bad - but if a player is struggling to maintain his/her power I maintain the extra ICPR would be of more benefit. We just disagree about this.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 11 2013 at 04:29 PM.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    No I am not doing that.

    I said when you compare them both directly without taking into effect the character's other bonuses they are BOTH equally unimpressive. None of our tactical buffs are game changing if taken alone.

    And 1800 crit rating is not going to make a champion do double damage. That buff is no where near that powerful in my opinion. It'll add a few percents to their critical stats, which isn't bad - but if a player is struggling to maintain his power I maintain the extra ICPR would be of more benefit.
    And yet you put in Victory Banner only for the one side yet not for when he had Relentless buff. Right.

    Of course 1800 crit rating wont make him do double damage, but it will make 1-3 skills per minute do more than double damage, and thereby easily make up for the 340 icpr because that's 1-3 skills less per minute he needs to execute to achieve same damage.

 

 
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