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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Armor, Moors and other questions

    Hi all

    Had some various questions here. Yesterday I got my 2nd piece of the Chance armor set; the one that gives a stacking 5% dmg bonus on an evade; must say this is a sweet bonus. Aside from this, I currently have 2 pieces of the hytbold gambler (+10% off hand dmg) and two loot drop pieces; the shoulders of treasury and some Erebor leggings with crit def. Where would you guys recommend to go from here? Of all the available set bonuses, it's seems the Moors Unseen set to be the best 4 pieces to get, whether for pvp or pve.

    Regarding the moors; I don't pvp much on my burg (I'm usually on my LM); but the other night a couple of buddies (also burgs) and I set out to see what we could find... We came across a group engaged in one of those "oh so much fun" Rez point battles... We tried to join the fight, but with out any ranges attacks all we could do was sit and watch, try to hit the accosional warg that popped in... Or resorting to lame tactics like using throwing daggers to get credit for kills... What strategies do you guys use out there? Any particular class traits that perhaps I'm overlooking that could be handy?

    Here is burg: http://my.lotro.com/home/character/silverlode/exebius/

    Rings are Gwanin x2, off hand is the 150 agi teal dagger; not sure what else doesn't show up... Any advice welcomed, thanks
    .
    -Exe of Silverlode (Landroval)
    Warden - Champion - Captain

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Exebius View Post
    Hi all

    Had some various questions here. Yesterday I got my 2nd piece of the Chance armor set; the one that gives a stacking 5% dmg bonus on an evade; must say this is a sweet bonus. Aside from this, I currently have 2 pieces of the hytbold gambler (+10% off hand dmg) and two loot drop pieces; the shoulders of treasury and some Erebor leggings with crit def. Where would you guys recommend to go from here? Of all the available set bonuses, it's seems the Moors Unseen set to be the best 4 pieces to get, whether for pvp or pve.

    Regarding the moors; I don't pvp much on my burg (I'm usually on my LM); but the other night a couple of buddies (also burgs) and I set out to see what we could find... We came across a group engaged in one of those "oh so much fun" Rez point battles... We tried to join the fight, but with out any ranges attacks all we could do was sit and watch, try to hit the accosional warg that popped in... Or resorting to lame tactics like using throwing daggers to get credit for kills... What strategies do you guys use out there? Any particular class traits that perhaps I'm overlooking that could be handy?

    Here is burg: http://my.lotro.com/home/character/silverlode/exebius/

    Rings are Gwanin x2, off hand is the 150 agi teal dagger; not sure what else doesn't show up... Any advice welcomed, thanks
    Hi there

    I saw no one had yet replied so I thought I would share my opinion. Burglars are extremely well positioned in the Moors right now, you've got the tools for all the situations for the most part. Gambler is arguably the most OP setup in a 1v1 or small group sort of situation, but it isn't my preferred style and I like the quiet knife setup. Cunning wound, strike from the shadows, hidden dagger, focused aim, ambidextrous, trickster, and leafwalker is my go to trait setup. If I am not using traited dust a lot of the time its perplexing riddle, but dust is the only trait you have that really helps fighting multiple opponents, so its basically required for me. If its different on your server experiment with the 7th trait and find one to your liking. Exposed throat, flashing blade, and improved feint attack are the legendaries I use.

    In general in PvP I think going for a balanced build focusing on mitigations works well. You have agility, vitality, crit rating, tactical mitigation, and finesse which you should consider main stats, and to a (only) slightly lesser extent crit defense. The only concession I make to raw mastery is the relic choice for my burglar tools, that is it.

    Mastery is your least primary of primary stats, as outposts make a bigger difference than the gear choices you make, you can get good positional damage boosts, and you can make up healthy chunks of sacrificed damage just by getting an evade or two. I also really like the chance 2 set bonus. Burglars got a huge buff when they switch 5 and 3 set bonuses to 2 and 4. Using two chance with the unseen set is a great way to go. For the chance pieces the best setup I settled on (thanks to Sazh and the ways of the frecklestache) was the jacket and the boots of chance. You get a good chunk of vitality from using those ones, and it allows you to get the crit and finesse you want from the other pieces of the unseen set you're using.

    Here is my lotro stats : http://my.lotro.com/home/character/Elendilmir/Rosenthal
    Who knows what it will be when you look, but at the time of this posting I'm using the pvp setup I've been using for several weeks now.

    I've got a lot of fancy items, but there are also good equivalents that are much easier to get.

    These are the legendary items I'm using.


    The sword has the trick range legacy, which is essential for adding a small bit of range to some of your skills, particularly your slow from dust. Dust is also a fantastically powerful debuff and works well against every opponent. An ideal pvp setup would probably have the same relics on the tools that are on the sword, but I didn't want to give up all my mastery because you got to have some balance. Addle induction multiplier is a great legacy to have on the tools, as it is a debuff fairly unique to the burglar, and very potent. Gamble chance is useful even when not traited gambler, because it gives your from stealth provoke a boost in its chance to land a gamble mez. Other choices could be Glee healing, or aim cooldown, but I really like gamble chance. As a burglar you WILL want to have swap weapons/tools with your hips cooldown and ready and able cooldown legacies maxxed out. I don't like that much but that is how it is. I have a mace with riddle range and ready and able that is extremely useful in the moors. In wildermore you can get really good pvp oriented legendary item titles, crit rating for the weapon, and crit defense + tactical mitigation for the tools.

    Using this setup the important stats are:
    Agi: 2237
    Vit: 1434
    Crit: 20.2%
    Finesse: 17.5%
    Crit D: 28.2%
    Tact Mit: 40.9%

    The only thing I would like is to have a decent way to work the agility proc into my build, but as of now that and the crit D one I'm going without. The itemization isn't there for agility items with critical defense or mitigation procs.



    There is a tank oriented ring from Snowbourne that actually is pretty good for burglars in the moors. When that thing procs and you get the mitigation boost it goes up by I think 3.4%. From a base mitigation of around 40 or 41% that seems pretty good.



    I am using these for pocket and neck gear, and using the cloak from smaug that can proc for a critical rating boost. I think these horselord recipes should be easier to come across now that there are lots of level 85 enemies out there. A good alternative setup that I also used would be to have the key from great barrows with the critical rating proc, and use the crafted mitigation cloak. The good thing about this setup is that you can go from sturdy to big damage just by switching out the Mooncandle defenders ring and the necklace for different ones that actually have agility. If you for example need to fight a defiler all that survivability isn't helping much, so having a couple of pieces of gear to switch while you sneak up on them works out really well.

    Throwing hatchets are awesome! The only problem is you run out so quickly. The itemization is really interesting right now, and this is probably the most fun pvp build I have ever cooked up. If you can get all set up with gear you like and figure out how to fight the different creep classes you will be actively looking for 2 and 3 v 1 fights so you can go bananas and pop all your cooldowns justifiably.

    Battles that involve your opponents retreating to one shotters are inherently less fun for burglars, due to your limited range, so just try to avoid them. Burgling in the moors is super fun though, and if you have any questions about how to approach fights there are lots of people on the forums who can give you good advice.
    Last edited by Bhurgo_Burglefools; May 20 2013 at 04:33 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000013320a/signature.png]Rosenthal[/charsig]

    All of us knob heads miss you Sylidor - R.I.P.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhurgo_Burglefools View Post

    qq

    I've been looking for a Horse-lords pocket recipe for a while now.
    Samuel

  4. #4
    @Exebius
    I would definitely go 2 Chance/4 Unseen; it's amazing. Rez camps aren't much fun for anyone, so I would try to just persuade people to break it up (if you can), and move away from it yourself.

    I'm still catching up with the new gear but I will probably use similar crit/crit defense/finesse to Rosenthal's build once mine is ready. I will lose around 200 agility or ~3k mastery and maybe a little bit of crit to pick up more morale/resistance/tact mit/phys mit*. I'll also use different settings to get morale and ICHR with my crit because I like a good chunk of incoming healing (>20% before proc). I expect that for the hit to dps I take, I will pick up enough stats to help sustain me in group play without having to run to the back of the raid for cover so much as I would otherwise. (Funny thing, I do virtually 0 dps when running for cover.)

    @Rosenthal
    Epic shineys, man.
    Question: You mention having every proc you want except for the Agility one. What are you using for the other proc effects? I still need to work on this, but I was thinking that once I get them I would like to use:
    • the Elder Arthedain's earring (Water Fornost) for the crit proc;
    • the starblossom agility ring for the crit def/ICHR proc;
    • the HoT proc sunbrand ring;
    • and the mits proc tank ring (swapping this in when the heal proc is on its 45s cooldown).
    • This would leave me without the agility proc as well, which I think is just gonna have to be the case.

    This should allow me to keep both mits in the mid-40's even after the armour debuffs. Again, the big trade-off is about 200 Agility or ~3k mastery because of relic LI choices when compared to your build.


    *I like to keep both phys mit and tact mit well above 40% when out there, and I keep phys mit slightly higher due to the strong armour rating debuffs that creeps have at their disposal. Those debuffs shred common mit and can usually make common damage much stronger than fire/shadow damage against light and medium classes stacked with tact mit. I would say around half of the ranked creeps I fight are using common damage now and they apply armour rating debuffs like it's their job--especially Reavers.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranedain View Post
    @Rosenthal
    Epic shineys, man.
    Question: You mention having every proc you want except for the Agility one. What are you using for the other proc effects? I still need to work on this, but I was thinking that once I get them I would like to use:
    • the Elder Arthedain's earring (Water Fornost) for the crit proc;
    • the starblossom agility ring for the crit def/ICHR proc;
    • the HoT proc sunbrand ring;
    • and the mits proc tank ring (swapping this in when the heal proc is on its 45s cooldown).
    • This would leave me without the agility proc as well, which I think is just gonna have to be the case.

    This should allow me to keep both mits in the mid-40's even after the armour debuffs. Again, the big trade-off is about 200 Agility or ~3k mastery because of relic LI choices when compared to your build.


    *I like to keep both phys mit and tact mit well above 40% when out there, and I keep phys mit slightly higher due to the strong armour rating debuffs that creeps have at their disposal. Those debuffs shred common mit and can usually make common damage much stronger than fire/shadow damage against light and medium classes stacked with tact mit. I would say around half of the ranked creeps I fight are using common damage now and they apply armour rating debuffs like it's their job--especially Reavers.
    Hi there

    The procs I am using are the mitigations proc from the defenders ring. I really like the heal over time one as well. On a class with such limited self healing options its just really useful. I am also using the crit proc from my reclaimed battlefield cloak as well. If you're going to use the stud or the key pocket item for the crit proc and want to have some mitigations I think the Eomer defensive cloak is still really really good in the moors.

    I tried swapping between rings, and it seems viable, but it wasn't for me to micromanage those buffs so much and I want to just focus on the fighting. If I group with a captain, or anyone that heals basically, I use the starblossom ring and it is an awesome item to have. I eventually switched to the mitigation ring just because it would mitigate everything, not just crits, with a potential 66% up time, but realistically probably more like 50. There is certainly a lot of potential in rotating different proc items.

    The itemization for agility stuff isn't quite as diverse as might, basically everything has the crit proc if it procs for anything, thats it. If you want the agi proc from somewhere besides the ring you need to get the bracelet from Inn of the Forsaken, or the Honourable Bangle. All I can say is good luck. The agi proc would be ideal, and I could swap out some relics on my tools without really losing any mastery but you can certainly go without, and just try to stack some agility the old fashioned way. Even though the items aren't quite as diverse you still have lots of good options. If I had the arthedain stud I would certainly experiment using that and switch to the mit cloak. I'm using the shadow stalker earrings, and those things are great too.

    As for the sundering common damage, thats a real thing. Its only a good strategy in a full on raid where everyone does it, and debuffs are coordinated, or solo against light, and to an certain extent medium armors. Reavers doing that get wrecked hard by any captain, guardian, or champion. Sundering blow and common damage suck against the heavies. If there aren't enough heavies in your servers metagame then they can probably get away with it.

    Is this a 1v1 circle type situation? The reavers that only ever show up at 1v1s on E often do this. If its 1v1 circle type situations you're talking about go trait up innocence and compassion and eat them up. I am thinking now that dust works a bit better, or about as well, against reavers at least compared to untraited disable. Their bleeds missing is the only way to reduce impale spike damage. Knives out well timed can eat their dev strike and just destroy them if they don't play well against it, and they can just kill themselves outright, but be mindful of the impale mechanic. Its that bonus damage that just doesn't get mitigated by knives out. It's not that wise to be traited common damage for free range pvping in my opinion because you're nerfing yourself against some of the tougher opponents. If they are doing it consistently I would look first to switching up some virtues. I agree though, this is something they're doing these days, and its another reason the defenders ring is nice out there.
    Last edited by Bhurgo_Burglefools; May 22 2013 at 01:54 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000013320a/signature.png]Rosenthal[/charsig]

    All of us knob heads miss you Sylidor - R.I.P.

  6. #6
    hey burgs, im using 4 unseen and 2 pandemonium armour.
    So now im thinking to trade the 2 pandemonium for 2 chance set.
    Just want to know if the buff of chance (5% damage on evade bonus) 2 pieces set are stackable and how many times?

    Thx
    "Do or Do Not, There is No Try."
    Yoda.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kafta View Post
    hey burgs, im using 4 unseen and 2 pandemonium armour.
    So now im thinking to trade the 2 pandemonium for 2 chance set.
    Just want to know if the buff of chance (5% damage on evade bonus) 2 pieces set are stackable and how many times?

    Thx
    It stacks up to 3 times. I would recommend using 2 Chance and switching to 2 Pandemonium for Knives Out.
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
    Thar - Dwarf Guardian
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhurgo_Burglefools View Post
    *snipped to address only the part about common damage and armour debuffs*

    As for the sundering common damage, thats a real thing. Its only a good strategy in a full on raid where everyone does it, and debuffs are coordinated, or solo against light, and to an certain extent medium armors. Reavers doing that get wrecked hard by any captain, guardian, or champion. Sundering blow and common damage suck against the heavies. If there aren't enough heavies in your servers metagame then they can probably get away with it.

    Is this a 1v1 circle type situation? The reavers that only ever show up at 1v1s on E often do this. If its 1v1 circle type situations you're talking about go trait up innocence and compassion and eat them up. I am thinking now that dust works a bit better, or about as well, against reavers at least compared to untraited disable. Their bleeds missing is the only way to reduce impale spike damage. Knives out well timed can eat their dev strike and just destroy them if they don't play well against it, and they can just kill themselves outright, but be mindful of the impale mechanic. Its that bonus damage that just doesn't get mitigated by knives out. It's not that wise to be traited common damage for free range pvping in my opinion because you're nerfing yourself against some of the tougher opponents. If they are doing it consistently I would look first to switching up some virtues. I agree though, this is something they're doing these days, and its another reason the defenders ring is nice out there.
    Sorry in advance, this is gonna be long. I felt it was important to include some hard numbers to back up what I am about to share since I think many people will be surprised or skeptical.

    I am building for both mitigation types already, but common damage is a larger problem for freeps than I think you might realize. Allow me to explain a little more of why people ignoring their common mits are likely going to be in trouble.

    Note: If you play a creep, please feel free to stop reading here. The following post will surely be very boring and not contain any information at all that will assist you in killing freeps. Please continue to trait your fire and shadow damage.

    Why Freeps Can't Ignore Common Mitigation

    Creeps are wise to bring a variety of damage types into both large and small fights for four reasons:

    (1) it forces freeps to trait/gear for both tact and common mits (while cutting back on other stats);
    (2) many freeps still neglect their common mitigation focusing solely on tact mit;
    (3) common damage + armour rating debuffs work especially well against 6 of the 9 freep classes, including the prolific tactical classes (who are often high priority healers in group play);
    (4) the skills which apply these armour rating debuffs are low cooldown, and the duration of the strongest debuff is quite long. There is no need to coordinate the application of these debuffs because Reavers and BAs should be applying them right away to any target that they want to kill, anyway.


    We seem to have a strong mix of damage types on our server now, with many high rank BAs, Stalkers, and Reavers opting to free up a trait slot and stick with common damage. This is not just for 1v1s, but everywhere and in every type of group or solo. I make sure to be as Innocent and Compassionate as I can going out these days because of it. Even so, it's not quite enough to keep up with the strong armour rating debuffs which creeps can apply liberally. Here's why...

    Some Solid Numbers

    I did some tests with a Reaver friend last night to look into it further (thanks, Welth!). In each test he used his R11 Reaver and I used my R12 Burg.

    The way we controlled this test, was that the Reaver would spam Sudden Strikes on me in four different circumstances (shown below). I counted only the crit values for Sudden Strikes on this test because that is a fixed number rather than a range. There are two crit values you could receive, depending on whether it is the first or second hit that crits--the first hits harder--but the crits will always be one of those two values.

    Against Burglar (my 'moors build has 41.6% tact mit and 42.7% physical/common mit
    -- note the higher than usual common mit for a Burg, as I'm sure few Burgs stack it so much)

    • Fire Damage without Sundering - crits were 302 for the first strike and 226 for the second. This is against 41.6% tact mit.
    • Fire Damage with Sundering - crits were 309 on the first strike and 232 on the second. This is against my adjusted tact mit of 40.1% due to the debuff of Sundering Blow. You can see that the increase in damage is quite marginal.
    • Common Damage without Sundering - crits were 296 for the first strike and 222 for the second. This is against 42.7% common mit, and so it is marginally worse than the crits using fire damage since the debuff is not applied. (This would be a good time to mention that medium armour wearers don't usually have common mit this high. Usually freeps in medium and light armour will take more damage from common than fire even without the debuff from Sundering Blow applied!)
    • Common Damage with Sundering - crits were 336 for the first strike and 252 for the second. This is where it gets staggering. Applying Sundering Blow shredded my common mit down to 35.0% (it took 7.7% of my common mit!).


    Medium/Light armour conclusion: Reavers using common damage can potentially wreck a medium armour wearer (and similarly light armour wearer). Common damage is more effective against a light or medium armour wearer, especially if the freep has focused on tactical mitigation to the neglect of common mitigation in their build.

    Yeah, But What About Heavy Armour?

    The question is raised, won't this make creeps look like ninnies when they try to fight the heavy armour freeps? Well, consider the Champ builds being drooled over in this thread. You'll note Tarenius' epic build as an example. (The other builds are similarly drool-worthy.) You'll see his mitigation values listed: 13,386 phys/comm mit; 12,156 tact mit.

    "See! As a heavy armour wearin', might buildin' Champ, the creeps are sure to hit like wet noodles with piddly common damage!" Well... not so fast.

    First of all, consider the fact that only 3 of the 9 classes wear heavy armour, and usually it's the light armour wearing healers that you are trying to take down first. Secondly, consider what a debuff like Sundering Blow will do to the heavy armour wearer. It takes away 3,464 armour, which translates to a loss of 3,464 common mitigation rating and a loss of 693 tactical mitigation rating. So, Tarenius will have ~9,922 common mit and ~11,463 tact mit rating. In other words, he will take significantly more damage from common than tactical. So, contrary to conventional wisdom, Reavers using common damage can likely do similar or better damage against heavy armour wearers once they have applied the Sundering blow debuff. Tactical damage would essentially only be better against those heavy armour wearers who haven't built up their tact mit much.

    Conclusion

    So, with just one Reaver in their midst that is liberally applying Sundering Blow's debuff, the other dps members of a creep group would do well enough with common damage. Chances are, they would be silly to trait their damage type at all.

    These numbers don't even take into account:
    • that a single BA could lower your armour by as much as 608-1,216 on top of what the Reaver does;
    • that BAs can stack their armour rating debuff (twice per BA);
    • that Defilers have a debuff that takes away the same amount of armour as Reaver's Sundering Blow, as well as 365 Might;
    • that Flayer Stalkers can lower armour by 1,400+ with the brute bonus;
    • that Warleaders can lower Might by an additional 365; and
    • that when a Stalker, Reaver, and BA don't trait their damage type, they free up a trait slot for something else.

    We sure as Mordor better pay attention to our common mitigation as medium and light armour wearers. We don't want to be caught running 'round in naught but our jimmies once the armour's been sundered, punctured, or otherwise cursed!

    If you read this far, you deserve something for your efforts. Here, have a cookie...

    tl;dr - You can really get yourself into trouble if you ignore your common mits, especially if the creeps are paying attention to what they have at their disposal.

  9. #9
    ^really good post, +rep!

    im trying it on my reaver right now. so far i get the feeling you are spot on. common dmg seems okay vs (debuffed) heavy armor but really quite good vs med/light.

    on average the dmg gain is probably not huge. the main advantage is the extra classtrait slot though, which i find to be very much needed as a reaver.

  10. #10
    nooo! you people are giving away our secrets!!!
    lugbur R11 reaver /// guthfred R9 cappy /// beregon R8 hunter /// guthblade R9 champ + too many other things

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranedain View Post
    ...

    tl;dr - You can really get yourself into trouble if you ignore your common mits, especially if the creeps are paying attention to what they have at their disposal.
    Pretty much. I play Reaver reasonably regularly, and I never have fire damage traited. Light classes, who likely have 40% tactical mit unbuffed thanks to the contribution from will, die a lot faster with common + sunder. It's usually a fairly sizeable damage boost against medium armour classes too, precisely because very few people bother with physical mit. Against the top geared heavy classes it's usually either a small damage boost or there's little difference, though it's quite a disadvantage against the more DPS geared heavies. Overall, common damage is an advantage more often than not in my opinion, especially since you free up a trait slot.

    I've been trying to gear my burg a bit recently, but I really can't stand the PvE side of the game at the moment. If I can't buy it off the AH or get it with minimal effort, I'm not going to be using it. That said, I plan to use something along the lines of:

    • Ears: Elder Arthedain Stud, Exquisite Wildermore
    • Neck: Starblossom, swapping in Sunbrand when I need more DPS
    • Pocket: Vitality Horse-lords
    • Bracelets: Wildermore if I can bring myself to run through that again (or Horse-lords if I can get hold of them).
    • Rings: Heal proc, with either agility proc or crit defence proc depending on situation.
    • Cloak: Protective Cloak of Eomer.
    • Armour: 4x Unseen, 2x Chance (swapping for KO). 2 pieces of the 75 non-audacity set to swap in for the 2 chance pieces when fighting healers.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

 

 

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