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  1. #1
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    Topleaf's Tanking Guide!

    Hello Wardens!

    I have noticed in looking that there does not seem to be an easy to find up to date guide for tanking as a Warden on these forums anymore. This is a shame! I believe that the Warden is the most satisfying class to play once you have learned how to play it well. We make excellent tanks and when traited and geared appropriately make decent DPS as well.

    This guide will only be focused upon the Warden’s role as a tank however. This guide will be aimed at the current level cap as this is where you have all gambits available and will be in a position to tackle the most content. Lower level Wardens wanting to tank can still get a lot from reading this guide though.

    For some people much of this will be very basic and already known but I have been approached by plenty of newer players wanting something from the ground up and this is what I intend to provide...hopefully there are some hints in here that can improve all Wardens out there somehow!

    Disclaimer: I am not a game developer I write what I can see and from what I have experienced over the years playing this class. Everyone has a different style and I am happy to take comments for improvement or different points of view!


    The Basics:

    The first important point to understand is that Wardens are not at all like Guardians with regards to tanking style. Guardians are (on the whole) reactive tanks, Wardens are proactive. A Guardian waits for Block responses to activate powerful threat skills, the Warden’s power lies in threat leeching to stay top of the threat pile. Learning what all your Gambits can do for you is key in becoming a great Warden.

    The Wardens tanking stance is Determination. Determination gives you a good amount of In-Combat Morale Regen (ICMR), decent In-Combat Power Regen (ICPR) as well as bonuses to your Critical Defence, Block, Parry and Evade Ratings.
    The Wardens Primary stat when developing a tanking build is Vitality. Each point of Vitality gives the Warden:

    • 5 morale (As it does the Guardian but all other classes get 3)
    • 2 Physical Mitigation
    • 4 Tactical Mitigation
    • 2 Resistance Rating
    • 7.2 Non-Combat Morale Regen

    The Wardens second important stat is Agility. Each point of Agility gives:

    • 10 Physical Mastery Rating
    • 5 Tactical Mastery Rating
    • 2 Parry Rating
    • 4 Evade Rating

    It is also important to remember that although the Warden has changed from a Might based class to an Agility based one, Might still has an important part to play for the tanking Warden.

    Each point of Might gives:

    • 2 Parry Rating
    • 4 Block Rating
    • 2 Physical Mitigation

    N.B While update 10 is still live Wardens will also gain Physical and Tactical Mastery from Might but I have left this out from the bullet points for future clarity...Agility is where it is at if you want/need Mastery guys!
    So a quick note here, Wardens differ from Guardians because they negate damage by avoiding it entirely rather than reducing its magnitude. Wardens cap at 50% mitigation as a Medium Armour wearer whereas Guardians can get to 70% due to being Heavy Armour wearers. That is a pretty big difference so the Warden must make it their aim to get Block/Parry/Evade (B/P/E) up to as higher level as possible.

    Important Note!

    The Warden cannot Block or Parry Attacks coming from behind. It is extremely important to be aware of this when tanking, try and keep all your foes in front of you at all times to avoid the maximum amount of damage.

    However, is it also important to remember that B/P/E ratings cap at 25%! This means that if you are already very near cap un-buffed you should tweak your set-up to gain in other areas. Once you start your Gambit rotations you will bust over the top which is wasteful. Finding just the right balance is the key to being a top Warden.

    A quick note on Critical Defence here, it is great...get as much of it as you can manage!


    Virtue Traits:

    The selection you choose here will be important to your build. The first thing that is worth mentioning is that where other classes often stack into Tactical Mitigation virtues this is something the Warden is unlikely to need to do. The vitality levels we reach mean you are almost at or already at the cap un-buffed for this stat so use Virtues to enhance other areas.

    My personal favourite to enhance with Virtues is Resistance. A lot of damage and inconvenience can be saved by having a high figure for this stat. This will not only provide a higher chance that you do not get Wounds/Diseases etc but also a chance that when you do you can avoid the damage of the tick!

    Good choices for Virtues (In no Particular order) for the Warden are:

    Zeal, Valour, Charity, Honour, Tolerance, Loyalty, Fidelity and Innocence.

    Picking out your selection is totally down to your own build and where you feel you need the extra goodies. I always like to bear in mind what you can and cannot get from other items in the game so chop and change about to see how the build looks with different selections. Having a lot of these at high levels is always good...you never know what the next update might bring!


    Class Traits:

    The Wardens tanking line is The Way of the Shield. This line is aimed at enhancing our self buffs and our ability to heal ourselves, one of the key differences between the tanking Guardian and Warden is our access to powerful self heals. However there are several important traits in the Way of the Fist line that are essential slots in the Wardens tank class trait arrangement. I will get to those a little later.

    As we can see in a tanking build 5 traits from The Way of the Shield are chosen. This may again fall to personal preference but most Wardens would agree that must haves are:

    Perseverance : + 2 Pulses to Heal over Time effects

    Combat Positioning: +687 Fist Gambit Evade Rating. Successful Evades or Partial Evades will restore 1% of the Warden’s Morale

    Wary Blocks: +10s duration to Block Buffs

    Shield Trickery: Adds 10% chance to apply bonuses when using Shield-Bash

    In the Way of the Fist line there are several very useful class traits for the tanking Warden:

    Terrible Visage: -3777 Target Warden’s Taunt Resist Rating. Increases threat generated by skills in Determination Stance (which makes this a must slot!)

    Strong Voice: -1717 Target Fist Gambits Resist Rating

    The Legendary Way of the Shield ‘Capstone’ is full of goodies for the Warden, the extra pulses on your heals is always good as is the increased magnitude.

    There is also a very useful Class Trait in the Spear Line called ‘A Keen Response’. This one ups your Parry Gambit Rating as well as rewarding you with returned Power for every Parried attack..very useful..get it slotted!


    Legendary Traits:

    The tanking Warden has 2 more slots available after the Way of the Shield ‘Capstone’ is slotted. Defiant Challenge is a must have. This skill has the ability to save poor position from defeat and to ease the difficulty of a really nasty pull. Its relatively small cool down (which can be further reduced using a legendary Javelin legacy) makes this an incredibly powerful tanking skill.



    The last choice can fall to choice, some like to take Javelin of Deadly Force for the multiple foe damage pull, personally I take Way of the Warden, it isn’t amazing but the extra Critical Defence isn’t to be sniffed at in my view! There is also the option of Grand Master Weapons Training which gives increased melee damage as well as an extra 1% Parry percentage when using a sword!

    Legendary Weapons/Items:

    Yes a sword is the ideal tanking weapon due to the parry rating, but look, if you dig an axe then go for it!
    In an ideal world you want to get the following:-

    Main hand weapon Majors (ranked in order of importance):

    Fist-spear threat increase
    Shield line buff duration
    Shield-spear threat
    Spear line parry buff increase

    The Minors for main hand are not all that important in my view, shield tactics mitigation is there but you will be capped in a tank build anyway so it will be pointless and I only tend to use shield tactics if I know stuns are possible in a big multi mob pull and want the 10 seconds grace to get myself rolling. Use these slots to get vitality/agility/might increases.

    The only one that may be worth slotting (and I actually personally don’t and would be interested to hear what other Wardens think about this) is Javelin skills max range which appears to affect the range of Resounding Challenge and Call to Battle. This could actually be rather useful in certain situations!

    Javelin Majors:

    Shield line healing
    Fist line buff duration
    Fist line evade buff increase
    Determination stance ICMR increase

    Javelin Minors:

    Shield Mastery block rating increase
    Defiant challenge cool down reduction


    Settings/Gems/Runes/Crafted:

    I will start with Crafted here; although the crafted Critical Defence and Mitigation one is nice, because you can often cap these un-buffed I currently run one of these and 1 +40 Vitality one. This will come down to what your build needs at the time!

    Below is a table of suitable tanking Settings etc. From a personal stand point I always prioritize partial and full avoidances because these are not so easily found elsewhere. Having an extra 2000 morale is all well and good but you can avoid all that damage and more by having higher B/P/E ratings so I am always willing to sacrifice raw morale for this in my builds.



    What do my tanking Gambits do?

    “You only need one Gambit, It is called Impressive Flourish....”
    Ok Jokes aside

    The Warden has 3 types of gambit available that directly build threat.

    1. Gambits that increase threat (e.g. Resounding Strike/Spear of Virtue/Surety of Death) – These are good at the start of fights or to quickly build threat when adds arrive or threat has been wiped)

    2. Gambits that increase threat over time (e.g. Call to Battle/Exultation of Battle/Precise Blow) – It is always a good idea to have some of these ticking away for you, they will stack so don’t be afraid to use Potency!

    3. Gambits that transfer threat (e.g. Maddening Strike/Dance of War/Conviction/Aggression) – The bread and butter once the fight is well established, keep stealing to stay ahead!



    Important Note!

    The three Gambits Deft Strike (Sp-Sp), Defensive Strike (Sh-Sh) and Goad (Fi-Fi) have a chance to give the Warden an effect called ‘Potency’. This will store the next used Gambit to Memory so that you can use it again. This is very useful to either get a fully tiered buff (explained below) or to quickly build threat up.





    Down to the business of actually tanking!

    Right then, tanking itself! I am not going to go writing out what each and every Gambit does here, you can all see what they do yourself by reading your Gambit list in game...but better still you need to get out there and see what they actually do for you.

    It is worth me saying again that what follows are simply things that work for me when I am tanking, there is no steadfast one size fits all ‘uber rotation’ for the Warden. You will need to amend what happens depending on what your specific situation is. I will outline a few simple ones a little later.

    First of all we need to look at the Wardens best friend; this of course is ‘Battle Preparation’! I cannot stress enough how great this ability is for us, we can get ourselves partially buffed before we even enter the fray using BP and this is exactly what you should be aiming to do.

    N.B: As you get more experienced you will learn to know when you can skip all the usual BP openers to gain speed when farming certain instances, but for the sake of this we will assume this is going to be a very hard pull!

    You should aim to activate the following before you run in/throw a javelin and activate mobs:

    • Shield Mastery
    • Dance of War
    • Dance of War
    • Conviction
    • EoB or Call to Battle or Resounding Challenge depending on situation or personal preference!

    This will send you into battle with 40 seconds of extra Evade Rating, Critical Defence, Physical and Tactical Mitigation. Shield Mastery will provide extra Block and Evade rating for at least a minute (probably more if you have the legacy on your legendary) and a heal ticking as well for you and your fellow heroes. Trust me running in with all this going is a nice feeling for an intrepid Waden!




    Buff Up while generating Threat:

    Some may now be asking ‘Why did you do DoW twice in there?’ Good! The budding Waden is always asking questions! Well the answer is that it increases the amount of time that the buff is active. You could have built up Maddening Strike first and then DoW afterwards but you cannot fire off Maddening Strike in BP because it requires a target to hit!

    The same applies for Brink of Victory and Surety of Death, seeing as both are quick animations I tend to build Surety of Death using Potency so I can fire it off twice very quickly to gain the full 40 seconds of benefit.

    If you used Maddening Strike and Brink of Victory only once in combat you would get a lesser version of the best buff for a shorter period of time. By then using the better version (Dance of War and Surety of Death in this case) (before the weaker buff expires...usually 30 seconds) you get the upgraded version for longer. Once you have the 40 second version of each of these you only need to use the top tier Gambit once to regain the 40 second effect.

    This also applies to Safeguard and Celebration of Skill which will give a 50 second Block and Partial Block buff once you use them either in that order or Celebration of Skill Twice. In this case it would be worth using Safeguard first and then Celebration of Skill so that you get the HoT effect from each Gambit. Once you have the 50s buff up, to maintain the 50s buff you need only activate CoS once before it runs out to get the full 50s again.

    In short this means once you have these three up on top tier you just need to use Surety of Death/Dance of War/Celebration of Skill to keep getting the full benefit rather than building them up with the 3 icon ones first. If you do let them run out you will need to either build the 4 icon ones twice (using Potency as previously mentioned) or the 3 icon followed by the 4 icon.

    **If this is unclear to you then drop me a message and I will be happy to help!**



    Important Note!

    I would highly recommend downloading the ‘BuffBars’ plugin for use with tanking as it shows you how long you have left from top to bottom making it much easier to see which you need to renew before it runs out! Attempting to see which ones are running low on the usual buff bar by your portrait is hopeless as they flick around too much and it simply isn’t practical in the thick of combat.

    You will see that each of these buffs has a name on the buff bar for the 3 icon buff and then the 4 icon one. For example, if you use Maddening Strike you get a buff called ‘Advanced Armour Use’ for 30 seconds. If you then use Dance of War inside these 30 seconds you will get a buff called ‘Enduring Expert Armour Use’ for 40 seconds. This buff will be more powerful than the previous one. Each upgraded version works in this same way.

    The best way to learn this is to go and find a training dummy for a while and have at it, this way you can pay closer attention to your buffs and see exactly what is happening in a safe situation. Never underestimate the benefit of pounding on a dummy to keep yourself sharp, let your ferret have a go too, he needs to keep himself in good condition!




    Gambit Sequences:

    Let’s say you have got a group of 3-6 mobs ahead of you:

    • BP to build up as many buffs and heals as you can, then ready your first threat Gambit...pull mobs and use this Gambit (outlined earlier)
    • Goad to gain Potency
    • EoB
    • EoB
    • Defensive Strike to gain Potency
    • Agression
    • DoW (reset 40 second timer for buff and transfer aggro)
    • Agression
    • Use Goad to gain Potency
    • Surety of Death
    • Surety of Death

    From here it is up to you and what the situation is, if you expect more adds at some stage you could use Goad/Defensive Strike to Memory Store Resounding Challenge for a quick Threat grab ready at your fingertips. This is particularly effective in a fight where a boss uses a threat wipe mechanic, (a good example is the Warg Pens final boss) you can use the Memory Gambit to quickly grab his attention back and then rebuild threat as you see fit.

    Don’t forget to buff your Parry Rating using Wall of Steel!

    You should also use Safeguard and Celebration of Skill to further increase your avoidances. Remember to keep an eye on those buffs and reset the 40 second timer, once you are comfortable with how these work you will naturally rotate these in every 30 seconds or so to make sure you don’t miss out...and even if you do due to unforeseen circumstances you can easily build them up again!

    Don’t forget to re-activate Shield Mastery as well, I often see Wardens start a fight with this up but then they totally forget about it because it lasts for over a minute from the start...use that buff bar and make sure it’s still there!
    If the target is single or you do not expect adds the most effective way to stay in the threat lead is to leach. While throwing in the odd threat over time Gambit is nice, Aggression is your best friend. This Gambit is a life saver and a double spam of this one using Potency can very quickly drag a mob(s) back onto you should they stray for some reason. The reason this is such a great leach Gambit is it is very quick to fire off unlike Conviction and DoW which both take a little longer. There is always some Hunter who likes to open with Heartseeker to see what you are made of, show him that you can handle his misdemeanour effortlessly and then spank him afterwards...

    Some instances will have adds coming in from side doors etc. In this situation the new Gambits ‘Resounding Challenge’ and ‘Call to Battle’ are effective due to their range but always remember that threat leech skills will drag mobs towards you as well. Also remember that EoB only has a short 6.2 metre range, you will need to run into a mob cluster ans fire it off to get the maximum targets.

    Some particularly hectic encounters may see the Warden needing to kite. Good examples of this are are Sword Halls Challenge mode and The Barrows Maze Challenge mode for quite different reasons. Never be afraid to use kiting as a technique if it works.

    In the Sword Halls for example the sheer volume of mobs including the three bosses and the very likely chance of stuns make standing and facing off impractical. In this instance the savvy Waden will use EoB and liberal use of Potency via Goad to heal themselves effectively on the move while generating threat while their partners in crime take down the nasties until the numbers become more manageable. In situations where aggro is not being generated on all mobs via EoB, a quickly built double Aggression will get the job done as well.

    In the example of The Maze, where a portion of the mobs must not be killed, kiting can again be used as a very effective technique. Because the Warden can effectively generate and steal threat without damaging their foes they are uniquely placed in this situation!





    How do I learn all these Gambits?!

    A very common question from new Wardens, my only answer is lots of practice and repetition, if you love the Warden and play regularly you will learn the Gambits by heart, I have never made use of the charts that you will find around the forums but if these help then by all means use them! Whatever works for you is the key!

    It is very important to learn all the possible combinations of Masteries to quickly build your gambits up during battle!
    Personally I think it helps to not only learn how to form them by saying out loud “Spear-Fist-Spear-Fist” for example (yes Boars Rush very good those that knew instantly) but to have a sensible Gambit building area arranged on your hot bars. You will also then learn the gambits by recognising the patterns as you click them. Below is my set-up:



    I am currently using a mouse that has 12 buttons on the side arranged from 1-12 top to bottom in 4 rows of three which I use with my thumb. (I know that will sound totally crazy to some but bear with me here). This means that I ‘click’ on very few skills while tanking, Battle preparation and occasional wound pot for example. The rest of the time my thumb is doing the work for me so I am free to manoeuvre around the battlefield as I see fit and crucially have my eyes looking around the screen rather than always fixed on my hot bar buttons.

    Now not everybody has one of these mice at hand and they cost £50 a chuck (however, I could not recommend them any more fervently to the aspiring Warden as once you are used to doing it this way you won’t ever look back).

    The important thing is that I know just looking at my hot bar that 9-5 is Aggression, 8-7-1 is EoB and 4-5-2 is the Dark before Dawn. Once you get familiar with your set-up you will be the same and you will just naturally form the Gambit that you want to form.

    Thanks for reading and I hope this was of some help to some budding Wadens out there. All constructive comments are welcome; I have spent most of today writing this on and off so there are bound to be mistakes, let me know so I can amend it! Is anybody able to sticky threads like this for us anymore? What’s the score?






    Happy Wardening

    Nykki Topleaf from Snowbourn
    Last edited by Hendos; Apr 03 2013 at 12:23 PM.
    The Last Alliance - Officer
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  2. #2
    Great thread, I'm sure everyone new to the class can learn very much from this
    +1 Cooky
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  3. #3
    I must say I am impressed because this is mostly everything I do on my warden. I'm glad you took the time to put up a fantastic warden guide for people coming back to the game since warden has changed so much. Thanks!
    Fuzzrat - R7 BA | Lyok - R6 Stalker | Tyok - R5 WL | Kyok - R5 Defiler

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000001b66e3/signature.png]Damsadan[/charsig]

  4. #4
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    Yes i have to agree this is a very nice post which will help new and experienced Wardens i am sure.

    +1 Rep
    Khalis - A Captain of Imladris and Maethor of House Vanimar


  5. #5
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    Very nice post and guide. Quite similar to how I play. I do a few things different, but even after all this time I picked up a couple of useful ideas. This will most definitely be a huge help to those new to the warden and new to end-game tanking.

    +rep not only because it deserves it but to help compensate for the Forum vampires who seem to like to give negative rep to any positive posting like this.
    Last edited by Morat; Apr 03 2013 at 08:26 AM.
    The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.

  6. #6
    i miss weapon choice....

    i Always use Legendary Trait: Grandmaster weapon training when it comes to tanking:
    it gives +2% parry chance if u use sword
    It makes nearly(... effectively) permanent the -15% attack duration buff from clubs
    (and sadly completly useless if u use spears... i mean for tanking XD)

    what offer Javelin of deadly force:
    Instant 10 target ranged damage.... (I think this option is inferior compared to gambits built with battle preparation (as it takes a legen trait slot -> see trait above) and also generates less aggro - coz it is only dmg aggro:P

    And i really miss some skill aggro ammount (as no source sincce lvl 75)... this seems to be a good place to have it

    TANKING WARDENS OF SNOWBOURNE! IF U ARE CURIOUS HOW MUCH THREAT YOUR SKILLS DO* THEN WRITE A PRIVATE MASSAGE OR AN INGAME MAIL TO ME AND TEST IT**

    *i mean how much damage is equal to the aggro of the skill

    **send it to Xica

    I intended this to be a positive critic, so dont be angry :P

    THe guide is nice and well written, also class lacking such, probably wee need to gather up warden community and write a guide together, as everyone has some combat techinques what seems unknown for most others... i hope my rnged tanking is a such one XD
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post
    i miss weapon choice....

    i Always use Legendary Trait: Grandmaster weapon training when it comes to tanking:
    it gives +2% parry chance if u use sword
    It makes nearly(... effectively) permanent the -15% attack duration buff from clubs
    (and sadly completly useless if u use spears... i mean for tanking XD)

    what offer Javelin of deadly force:
    Instant 10 target ranged damage.... (I think this option is inferior compared to gambits built with battle preparation (as it takes a legen trait slot -> see trait above) and also generates less aggro - coz it is only dmg aggro:P

    And i really miss some skill aggro ammount (as no source sincce lvl 75)... this seems to be a good place to have it

    TANKING WARDENS OF SNOWBOURNE! IF U ARE CURIOUS HOW MUCH THREAT YOUR SKILLS DO* THEN WRITE A PRIVATE MASSAGE OR AN INGAME MAIL TO ME AND TEST IT**

    *i mean how much damage is equal to the aggro of the skill

    **send it to Xica

    I intended this to be a positive critic, so dont be angry :P

    THe guide is nice and well written, also class lacking such, probably wee need to gather up warden community and write a guide together, as everyone has some combat techinques what seems unknown for most others... i hope my rnged tanking is a such one XD
    We will get together and sort something to add to the guide mate, thanks!
    The Last Alliance - Officer
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leri927 View Post

    And i really miss some skill aggro ammount (as no source sincce lvl 75)... this seems to be a good place to have it

    TANKING WARDENS OF SNOWBOURNE! IF U ARE CURIOUS HOW MUCH THREAT YOUR SKILLS DO* THEN WRITE A PRIVATE MASSAGE OR AN INGAME MAIL TO ME AND TEST IT**

    *i mean how much damage is equal to the aggro of the skill

    **send it to Xica
    SIGH. AGAIN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    Lets see if I can answer at least some of your questions.

    Warden Threat effects stack completely with other Threat effects and with themselves.

    The descriptions for the magnitude of a Threat effect are absolute. A Moderate threat increase does the same amount of Threat on a Tier 2 gambit as a Tier 5 Gambit.

    The magnitude of threat effects is approximately:
    .5x -Slightly increased threat
    1x -Moderately increased threat
    2x -Increased threat
    3x -Greatly increased threat

    All Warden Threat over Time effects last 16 seconds with 4 second pulses. The duration is not increased by traits but the magnitude of each pulse is increased by some traits.

    Warden heals do increase threat for each pulse of healing, though some monsters care more about healing threat than others.
    From April 30,2012

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...hreat-Update-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Graalx2 View Post
    The 1/2x, 1x, 2x, and 3x values are still correct as far as the relationship between the various increased threat values. What has happened in Isengard is that the 'x' has greatly increased over what it was pre-Isengard.

    Any Wardens having issues holding threat should also try out the various legacies that increase threat. They were all increased at the same time.
    DPS NUMBERS do not directly transfer to threat numbers.

  9. #9
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    This is a great summary. Very helpful to me since I am returning to the game after a long break. (especially to such a complex class).

    I'm still looking for a good list of best in slot items for wardens though.
    Spam deleted by Administrators

  10. #10
    why not exchange Surety of Death with war cry because with the change to evade it gets the blueline buff so it grants +1300 evade for 30 seconds it think the buff is high enough last 20 seconds longer and its much faster so you have time to put a Celebration of Skill in your rotation to raise block and put tier3 self heal on you ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    SIGH. AGAIN?

    DPS NUMBERS do not directly transfer to threat numbers.

    Whatever the number for the absolute threat a skill does in behind-the-scenes calculations is totally irrelevant. What's worth knowing is the approximate, constant relationship between damage and the threat of certain skills. With Terrible Visage and Fist-Spear threat, the threat portion of EoB will hold aggro over something like 15-16k damage when all parties don't have any perceived threat buffs; I'm factoring out the damage and heal part of EoB quoting that figure. Part of that 15-16k is upfront or call it the first pulse, part of it is over time. Testing proves this, and I'm sure when Leri does his testing he'll corroborate what I said.

    DPS numbers translate linearly to threat numbers. Whether it's directly or multiplied by some constant, doesn't matter at all. Field observations matter.

    There's not a damn thing in Graalx's post to contradict what I'm saying, except for his bit about crit % later on in the thread you linked--and that would just occasionally screw up tests done if it means what I think it might mean. Using "some monsters care more about healing threat than others." (my emphasis) would be an epic stretch.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000363f98/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgiver View Post
    why not exchange Surety of Death with war cry because with the change to evade it gets the blueline buff so it grants +1300 evade for 30 seconds it think the buff is high enough last 20 seconds longer and its much faster so you have time to put a Celebration of Skill in your rotation to raise block and put tier3 self heal on you ?
    Surety buff lasts just as long as War Cry when you apply Surety within 10s (20s with leg) after Brink or another Surety. Once that Enduring Expert Evasion buff is rolling, you just apply Surety again while it's up, and Enduring Expert Evasion lasts from 30-40 seconds depending on your legacy.

    Keeping Surety in the rotation gives like 1k more evade and a bit more damage.

    Keeping War Cry in the rotation instead gives a T1 HoT and shaves (for me) like a second and some change off the rotation. I got that figure from going up to a dummy and doing this:

    Jav + [FiSh] + War Cry
    vs
    Jav + Fi + Sh + [FiSh] + Surety

    Pretty sure you can't fit much into that 1 to 1.5 seconds, though if that time reduction were paired with something else maybe you could.
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  13. #13
    i mean istead of fi+fi and double surety of death you can built IN THE SAME time 1 war cry+1Celebration of Skill to have the same buff duration(both 40seconds) with -700evade and negate that with +1000 block rating and self heal of Celebration of Skill

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    There's not a damn thing in Graalx's post to contradict what I'm saying, except for his bit about crit % later on in the thread you linked--and that would just occasionally screw up tests done if it means what I think it might mean. Using "some monsters care more about healing threat than others." (my emphasis) would be an epic stretch.
    Fascinating to know you are both Omen and Leri, as I do not see you posting earlier or saying anything..

    While you are testing it, grab a guardian to pull off of also, as I would be VERY curious to know the DPS vs threat for them vs wardens.
    Last edited by Darlgon; Apr 03 2013 at 05:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Keeping War Cry in the rotation instead gives a T1 HoT and shaves (for me) like a second and some change off the rotation. I got that figure from going up to a dummy and doing this:

    Jav + [FiSh] + War Cry
    vs
    Jav + Fi + Sh + [FiSh] + Surety

    Pretty sure you can't fit much into that 1 to 1.5 seconds, though if that time reduction were paired with something else maybe you could.
    So two things here:
    1) War Cry gives the long buff without a requirement of SoD or BoV used 10s earlier.
    2) Your numbers are off on the time to get both these off.
    Time = Builders*1s + Masteries*.66s + Animation_Time
    War Cry has a 2s animation time, Surety of Death has a 1s animation time.

    War Cry time = .66 + 2 = 2.66s
    SoD time = 1 + 1 + .66 + 1 = 3.66s

    SoD takes 1s (37%) longer to build and execute.

    I use War Cry when I want something quick that will last a while and build AoE threat.
    I use BoV/SoD when I'm in a stable rotation against a single enemy.

    They are both good, just different. Use what works based on current buff state, fight phase (initial or late), and available masteries. In this case, we assume that FiSh is available. IMO, FiSh is the most valuable builder in our arsenal, so it should be used wisely--for EoB, Aggression, BoV, SoD, WC, Desolation, Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction, or Shield Mastery.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Fascinating to know you are both Omen and Leri, as I do not see you posting earlier or saying anything..

    While you are testing it, grab a guardian to pull off of also, as I would be VERY curious to know the DPS vs threat for them vs wardens.
    I anticipated you disagreeing with me considering you sing the same song in every thread in which Threat comes up. Of course I am not Leri, I've had strong disagreements with at least one statement he's made in the past, though that's rare I think.

    I ought to just link back to what my buddy Ellery said next time. It's silly to assume that "SIGH, AGAIN" people are saying damage = threat when they're just shortening the relationship of Damage * unknown but constant factor = threat. Rearranged and made specific to a certain skill (and the skill's damage/heals not included), that's [Skill's equivalent-damage-approximation] = [Skill's real threat]/[unknown but constant factor] where we apply the right term with a gambit and measure it by testing for the left term. What the two individual parts are of that right term doesn't matter, just the entire term. (EDIT: Disclaimer because I'm dangerously treading close to making concrete statements where I should not: I cannot absolutely say that the factor converting skill damage to units of threat is constant for all mobs (it definitely isn't for the Hate-monger in skrirms), but I feel it's the best assumption available and see no evidence to say otherwise.)

    Um Graalx was kinda alluding to crit threat effects in one of his statements though, which is news to me. I guess it'd call for a more complicated way of accounting for [Skill's real threat] that would take into account crit %?

    I'll pick my guard friend's brain on what things like equivalent-damage-approximations are for things like shield-swipe, before perceived threat of course. Umm now that I think of it Guards are probably tricky because there's things on their belt like Shield Use and Threat input modifier for 1st ages that I don't know how to factor out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harperelle View Post
    So two things here:
    1) War Cry gives the long buff without a requirement of SoD or BoV used 10s earlier.
    2) Your numbers are off on the time to get both these off.
    Time = Builders*1s + Masteries*.66s + Animation_Time
    War Cry has a 2s animation time, Surety of Death has a 1s animation time.

    War Cry time = .66 + 2 = 2.66s
    SoD time = 1 + 1 + .66 + 1 = 3.66s

    SoD takes 1s (37%) longer to build and execute.

    I use War Cry when I want something quick that will last a while and build AoE threat.
    I use BoV/SoD when I'm in a stable rotation against a single enemy.

    They are both good, just different. Use what works based on current buff state, fight phase (initial or late), and available masteries. In this case, we assume that FiSh is available. IMO, FiSh is the most valuable builder in our arsenal, so it should be used wisely--for EoB, Aggression, BoV, SoD, WC, Desolation, Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction, or Shield Mastery.

    --Harper
    Hmm. Looks like because I eyeballed my CA timer and didn't use a timestamped parse I overestimated and was incorrect in saying "a second and some change" instead of a second. Well thank you, good knowledge.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Apr 03 2013 at 06:30 PM.
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  17. #17
    we assume that FiSh is available---- its blocked another 3-4seconds if he starts with double eob(if he use all his gambits ASAP) thats why i thought he would build it without masteries...--- CoS sp+sh is still free -faster to build
    my rotation is bp ctb or eob goat buildand use 2eob sh+sh aggression war cry Celebration of Skill(shield+spsh+spsp) 2nd aggression after that all masteries are available again and you can repeat it---more buffs more self heal enough threat (i use double aggression+double eob after the first rotation cause all buffs are still ticking)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgiver View Post
    we assume that FiSh is available---- its blocked another 3-4seconds if he starts with double eob(if he use all his gambits ASAP) thats why i thought he would build it without masteries...--- CoS sp+sh is still free -faster to build
    my rotation is bp ctb or eob goat buildand use 2eob sh+sh aggression war cry Celebration of Skill(shield+spsh+spsp) 2nd aggression after that all masteries are available again and you can repeat it---more buffs more self heal enough threat (i use double aggression+double eob after the first rotation cause all buffs are still ticking)
    No doubt it's effective. More buffs and more self heals than what rotation, though?
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  19. #19
    more heals (t1+t3) and more buff -700 evade but +1000block and +4% partial block rating than this rotation (DoW still ticking from battle preparation for me)
    • Goad to gain Potency
    • EoB
    • EoB
    • Defensive Strike to gain Potency
    • Agression
    • DoW (reset 40 second timer for buff and transfer aggro)
    • Agression
    • Use Goad to gain Potency
    • Surety of Death
    • Surety of Death

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgiver View Post
    more heals (t1+t3) and more buff -700 evade but +1000block and +4% partial block rating than this rotation (DoW still ticking from battle preparation for me)
    Ok thanks for clarifying. I'll tell you though, it's not as if you can't have Surety, DoW, Celebration, WoS, Shield Mastery, Restoration, and Conviction all on you with a high uptime % (the long buffs 100% uptime, the 30s buffs and HoTs at oh somewhere between 80-90% uptime each). Like, using Surety and getting Celebration in your rotation aren't mutually exclusive things.

    The trick is getting a rotation based around using a mastery twice for two different purposes in the entire rotation. A 30+ second rotation, the closer you can get to 30 the better. Buff duration legacies necessary for this.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Ok thanks for clarifying. I'll tell you though, it's not as if you can't have Surety, DoW, Celebration, WoS, Shield Mastery, Restoration, and Conviction all on you with a high uptime % (the long buffs 100% uptime, the 30s buffs and HoTs at oh somewhere between 80-90% uptime each). Like, using Surety and getting Celebration in your rotation aren't mutually exclusive things.

    The trick is getting a rotation based around using a mastery twice for two different purposes in the entire rotation. A 30+ second rotation, the closer you can get to 30 the better. Buff duration legacies necessary for this.
    Yes I think the point isn't what Gambit sequence might give extra buffs from the start it is getting comfortable with keeping powerful buffs up once the battle is up and running.

    The opening sequence I put up was only a suggestion but I would add that it is based on the assumption that early in the fight generating threat is the key rather than buffing...
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  22. #22
    From my point of view dmg and aggro must have straight conection (ofc this is modified by many things)

    so basically 1 damage lets say generates 1 unit of threat...
    this can be modified, by class items, traits, what can increase (like guardians threat stance), or decreas (like hunter stealthy shot trait) the threat generated by the skill.
    Also there are some skill (even at dps classes) what have aggro component independent fom the damage of the skill, like champions skill raging blades has increase threat so beside skill damage it deals some bonus threat, also some skills reduce threat, so 1st they increas it (if they do damage) and then decreas with a fix ammount (like hunters mystifingflame skill of runekeepers)

    so for me the testing needs the following:
    1 - Warden fires of the gambit
    2 - Wait 16s (to let threat over times expire - if the skil has such)
    3 - dps hits the mob untill he pulls it (using normal aggro skills, like champions wild attack untraited - and having no threat generation modifing buffs, trait, or item equipped)
    4 - stop dps and check combatanalysis for the damage done

    repeat the process 2/3 times

    Anyways u will not get 100% correct numbers but u can get close to it... lets say within 500dmg that tells lot more than skil generates ~threat like greatkly increased something threat
    so an example:
    Surrety of Death and Spear of Virtu tooltip is same threat wise.. are u really that sure that they are equal? (i am concerned on this that is why i want to test it out)

    So i think it is possible to test out, ofc u cannot get the 100% correct numbers and dps aggro is always modified in reality. but this limited knowledge is lot more than our current.
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  23. #23
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    Thumbs up

    Fantastic thread, this is what I needed to know.
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  24. #24
    /sticky
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  25. #25
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    OP User Interface Skin?

    Below is my set-up:





    How did you get your icons arranged this way?

 

 
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