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  1. #1

    BfE T2C Strategy Discussion

    After weeks of mindless gold grinding I decided it was time to shape up and do BfE T2C as a kin. The first attempt night we were able to bring it down to 30% as we learned all the mechanics and tested positioning. The second night we got it to 20% after many hours and seemed more comfortable with the fight but it seemed ridiculously long and boring. So, on the third night of the week I decided to simply burn the trolls down evenly and not do 1 blood rage at a time or stagger blood brother by 1%. After all, the only downside was 200% compared to 150% for much less work, coordination and wait time.

    My only concern was the distribute of both trolls at 200% blood rage versus 1 troll at much higher. From this I formulated a strategy so that only the raid or nobody would be hit by a single distributed attack. This seemed to work excellent as there were so many people taking the distribute that it did not affect us and glass cannon hunters could stand away from everybody and not worry about stacking morale (well nobody really had to stack morale).

    Tanking with a warden would be risky without fire-lore I'll admit that, but the avoidance's were impressive and the self and group heals beneficial. We were able to defeat all the reinforcements with 1 champ and 1 hunter. The DPS on the bosses was a debuff burg and captain VS my hunter.

    This is our first kill and it took us just over 15 minutes to do (nearing half of the 25-26 the regular method would take). If you are starting to learn this with your kin I would highly recommend you attempting this strategy as it is active, not boring and you get much more practice in. The key is positioning, debuffs and excellent reinforcement killers that are glass cannon. There is room for improvement and in the weeks to come I plan on posting a fun video of 10-13 minute run that was more aggressive than our conservative initial kill. Enjoy: (Last half of fight)



    I will be reserving next post for a quick guide for anyone that wants to kill it but needs additional help. We did complete this with a LM who did not know what see all ends was and a guard with 50% purple gear. The champ also only had a few days /played time. So this is for everyone, don't be discouraged by threads saying you need all gold.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  2. #2
    Battle for Erebor has 6 different options you can choose from. Each option can be selected from the 6 banners as you make your way down the stairs to the arena. Each banner applies one more mechanic to the fight to make it more difficult. You must choose two banners for T1, four banners for T2 and six banners for T2C. The mechanics from each individual banner are as follows - I will be focusing on mechanics specifically for T2C (more detailed than the developer diary):


    • Catapults: When the Olog-hai(trolls) are both at 70% health this mechanic will commence. There is a circle on each square showing that a catapult will soon shoot into that square. You need to be completely out of the square not the circle to avoid the attack. If you fail to move out of the square in time you will suffer from medium damage and a long stun. The placement and rotation of these light up squares has no apparent pattern and could be anywhere at anytime around you.
    • Inferno: When the Olog-hai are both at 40% health this mechanic will commence. Every few seconds fire in the air around you will subtract a light-medium portion of morale depending on how you are built. This is quite dangerous but can be controlled by captain rally cry easily if you are properly killing reinforcements as they spawn so while it is unavoidable it can be neutralized per say.
    • Blood Rage: Every 5% of health an Olog-hai loses, both he and his brother get a stacking damage boost of 100% for 20 seconds. This starts at 2x and can ramp all the way to 6x if you burn too quickly. Example: If you burn both trolls to 95% from 100% both lost 5% health so both receive a 100% buff from themselves and the other resulting in 200% buff on each troll (100x2) instead of just 100% if you burned only one of them to 95% and left the other at 96% waiting until the 20 second buff has been removed from the 95% trolls application of it. When the 20 second buff has been removed from both you may resume damage on the 96% to take it also to 95% applying a new 100% buff on both trolls and resume taking them down to 90% and 91% to start the process again.
    • Blood Brothers: For every 1% health the Olog-hai differ in, they get an increase in damage, from 1.5x at 1%, all the way to 10x at 10%. Simply put never have the trolls more then 1% apart or they will begin to hit much much harder. At 2-4% fluctuation will face certain death. The requires slow and controlled DPS on both the melee and ranged players of the raid to ensure it remains constantly even for the duration of the fight from start to finish.
    • Reinforcements: When the Olog-hai are both at 70% health this mechanic will commence at the same time as catapults. There are 3 of them, all different morale levels and abilities and they spawn every 30 seconds for the rest of the fight. The wave consists of the Warrior (well over 100k morale) whom does nasty frontal AOE damage but otherwise is harmless and receives a stacking damage buff the longer he remains alive, the Archer (around 44k morale) who does medium AOE damage and a low morale (around 22k) Captain who applies a damaging aura around him.
    • Honor guard: The Olog-hai enter with 8 Easterling Honor guards: 4 high morale which apply debuffs to you which will by doing so they kill themselves and Sorcerers relatively low morale whom apply large clouds on the ground which do minimal damage and apply affects to you which must be potted (fear - stun, poison- removal of morale, disease - incoming healing, wound - bleed) These do not appreciate being CC'd.


    Battle for Erebor T2C, the fight:

    Stage 1(Honor Guard):
    To start the fight off when everyone is ready - pop any cool downs you think may be useful such as in harms way and last stand as it will all reset when the Olog-hai enter combat.

    Stage 2(100%-70%):
    Position is the first step after all adds are dead. Position the raid so that everyone except the hunters are always in 8M range of the melee boss (the one with the ? mark buff (-75% incoming ranged and tactical damage buff). The reasoning behind this is that you will all be in range of 1 troll to take the distributed attack as a raid, the melee troll damage classes will be able to reach their troll and the ranged troll damage classes can simply range it the other. Hunters can stand back out of range of both trolls in range of AOE heals so they aren't constantly moving hindering their DPS.

    **Note** If you leave the tank by himself on the ranged troll the Olog-hai will never perform the distributed attack but if you leave even 1 person by the tank he will perform it risking killing both the tank and most assuredly kill the extra player. For this reason it is vital that you move as a single unit and stay together in range of the melee troll.



    Stage 3(70%-40%):



    Stage 4(40%-0%):

    To be completed later...
    Last edited by YesMaam; Apr 04 2013 at 06:13 PM.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    We did complete this with a LM who did not know what see all ends was and a guard with 50% purple gear.
    I love this part.

    You're in the early running for the non-existent award I just now made up for my favorite post of the year.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    I love this part.

    You're in the early running for the non-existent award I just now made up for my favorite post of the year.
    Our LM main had dental issues and wasn't on so we made someone play their LM. They actually went to Moria to finish their trait-lines during the raid when we did an AFK lol. We killed it with the LM.

    The guard we got it to 2% on both bosses and died but I considered it a victory I have no idea how the hobbit guard with all purple gear from Mirkwood 3 mans and no crit defense survived that long with 200% blood rage.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  5. #5
    Man I hope this isn't an April fools post. I would love to see a legitimate strat my kin can try. So far it's just been ugly. Thanks if this is real, booooo if its not :-)

  6. #6
    Couple thoughts to consider:

    Near the very beginning of the video, you'll see my (the warden's) morale drop to 6% or so due to a bad string of events. For the rest of the fight, including inferno, I never dropped below 60% or used defiant challenge (last 5% not withstanding, would be silly not to). Between the awesome mini heals I was getting, my self heals, ~60% crit def and capped avoidances, the spike damage that everyone is so afraid of on wardens just never occurred. This is also because the DPS was very even and steady on the 2 trolls, so the buff never spiked up to 250 or 300% either.

    The champ we were using to tank all the adds had like, 12k buffed morale. That was it. He got his tact and phys mits close to cap (>60%) and had I think around 40% crit defence, he'll correct me if I'm wrong. You definitely don't need to have 15k+ and have your whole tanky setup going, and you especially don't need to have 2 champs, that's probably overkill really. We did try this once or twice with me warden tanking the adds, but it was just much less effective since we were basically giving up a ton of reinforcement DPS just to be able to tank more adds at a time, which kind of defeats the purpose.

    I said it last week and I'll say it again, this fight is not as hard as we originally imagined it to be when we were first taking a look at the different mechanics. Unless FTTLM t2c is super difficult, which I'm pretty certain it won't be, this is a very disappointing cluster for raiders who want a genuine challenge. There was nothing in here that came even close to the amount of coordination and execution needed for what we had in Orthanc, which coupled with the piss poor way Turbine handled loot for this expansion completely sucked the life out of a lot of raid-focused players. This fight is not a face roll by any means, and I'm sure a good number of kins that focus on raiding will be working on this for a couple months to come, but overall it is extremely disappointing.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt78 View Post
    Man I hope this isn't an April fools post. I would love to see a legitimate strat my kin can try. So far it's just been ugly. Thanks if this is real, booooo if its not :-)
    If someone can fake a video like this, my hat would be off to them :P
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    If someone can fake a video like this, my hat would be off to them :P
    I don't doubt the video, I know people have done it. It's the guide that I hope is really coming :-)

  9. #9
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    thanks for the video, i really like the way you did this fight quicker than the others. i am curious how your champ is built for this fight? thanks again.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Souku View Post
    thanks for the video, i really like the way you did this fight quicker than the others. i am curious how your champ is built for this fight? thanks again.
    I built for the fight by swapping out enough tanking items to get my mits high, i was at 70% physical and 64% tactical. This is the jewelry i used:
    -Stud of Grave Tidings
    -Easterling Sorcerer's Earing
    -Starblossom Necklace of Endurance
    -Defensive Scroll of Eomer
    -Angmarim Lord's Bracelet
    -Annuminas' Champion's Bracelet
    -Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring of Rohan
    -Hoary Platinum Band

    As far as armour goes, i used 2 pieces of the hytbold storm, chest and shoulders;
    -Tomb-robber's Leaden Boots
    -Leg-guards of the Ancient Citadel
    -Commanding Ancient Helmet of the Horse-lords
    -Protective Cloak of Éomer
    -Gloves of the Hytbold Berserker

    I hope Noldor is doing well,
    -Georic
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000003ed596/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    **Shapz R11 BA**Shapzz R10 Capt**Shapsz R8 Hunter**Georick R7 Guard**

  11. #11
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    Interesting, seems like a solid strat that will work. Positioning looks spot on.

    200% blood rage seems a little dangerous though, personally if I were to speed up through the inferno I would consider taking time to allow for CDs after the honour guard are down and before inferno.

    I wouldn't worry about Warden tanking though, its about the players and not the classes imo. We do it with a warden, guardian (myself), and two healing RKs, and I have seen some people taking more than two healers.
    My home is a spider den, my garden is Hoarhallow and I visit Grothum on holiday. I just happen to be really unlucky and meet freeps there ;)
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  12. #12
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    I like how efficient you guys are. Definitely some nice stuff in here to make the raids more accesible to more people. Our strat likely could have gotten things down to sub 20 mins, but I can see doing your strat in 10 mins or so. We'll likely be implementing some of the things you guys did in our 'farming' strat. Very cool. Nice strat.
    Last edited by canyouaddcolour; Apr 01 2013 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #13
    Yep, I think 10 minutes is possible but would be very risky to implement. Kudos to those that try!
    Last edited by YesMaam; Apr 01 2013 at 11:31 PM.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by megageo View Post
    I built for the fight by swapping out enough tanking items to get my mits high, i was at 70% physical and 64% tactical. This is the jewelry i used:
    -Stud of Grave Tidings
    -Easterling Sorcerer's Earing
    -Starblossom Necklace of Endurance
    -Defensive Scroll of Eomer
    -Angmarim Lord's Bracelet
    -Annuminas' Champion's Bracelet
    -Wyrmfire Warrior's Ring of Rohan
    -Hoary Platinum Band

    As far as armour goes, i used 2 pieces of the hytbold storm, chest and shoulders;
    -Tomb-robber's Leaden Boots
    -Leg-guards of the Ancient Citadel
    -Commanding Ancient Helmet of the Horse-lords
    -Protective Cloak of Éomer
    -Gloves of the Hytbold Berserker

    I hope Noldor is doing well,
    -Georic
    hey Geo! i didn't realize that champ was you! i was actually more curious about your traits than your gear (were you in a fervour build or were you glory tanking while the hunter helped dps them?) we have tried it both ways with mixed success so far.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/082070000000d123b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  15. #15
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    I'm likewise interested in whether your Champ was Ardour or Fervour. Look forward to getting in there on my Champ in that kind of strat.
    Last edited by canyouaddcolour; Apr 01 2013 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Empty Post

  16. #16
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    As for regular tactic I'd guess you're referring to Ramble On or Mellowship as we did it in ~19 minutes despite only having 1 blood rage at most. As for stability (which I'd say is key for first-timers rather than shaving some minutes off) I'm not sure which tactic is the best. We had the same stable runs down to 15-25% pretty much every single time as it sounds like you had, and the main difference seems to be that you "stack" the Warriors where we killed each wave before the next spawned.

    As for speedruns I guess it's a matter of taste. I'm really not in the mood to do this fight on a regular basis either way, and the massive t1 farm didn't make it any better.

    One thing I've wondered about is the updating of morale on the bosses. In both the videos from you and Ramble On the morale seems to tick down rather smoothly and precisely, which is not quite the experience I have when playing. I stole this picture from Angdal:



    As you can (hopefully) see, despite the bosses being ~13k/1.4% from eachother according to plugin and boss vitals, there is no Blood Brother on the boss. This is an issue that bothered me quite a lot when we did this fight and I wonder what causes it, especially if you're not having that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollof View Post
    200% blood rage seems a little dangerous though, personally if I were to speed up through the inferno I would consider taking time to allow for CDs after the honour guard are down and before inferno.
    Hopefully you do pop your CD's before starting the fight in order to reset them straight away?
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Apr 01 2013 at 10:11 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Souku View Post
    hey Geo! i didn't realize that champ was you! i was actually more curious about your traits than your gear (were you in a fervour build or were you glory tanking while the hunter helped dps them?) we have tried it both ways with mixed success so far.
    Traits i used were 4 yellow 3 red, and i stayed in fervor to keep up with dps. I made use of the rend armour reduction on each wave, and as for warriors stacking up, there were usually never more than 2 at a time, or else i would not have been able to survive. Making use of the horn once every wave is useful also since the archers and warriors can be cc'd. I was parsing almost 2.2k dps (not doing any dps for 2 minutes or so after the honorguard dies until the reinforcements come.) My taken damage per second was 743.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000003ed596/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    **Shapz R11 BA**Shapzz R10 Capt**Shapsz R8 Hunter**Georick R7 Guard**

  18. #18
    Shapz is the bossman. Only a few days played time makes my champ look like a fool...
    Last edited by YesMaam; Apr 01 2013 at 11:33 PM.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    As for regular tactic I'd guess you're referring to Ramble On or Mellowship as we did it in ~19 minutes despite only having 1 blood rage at most. As for stability (which I'd say is key for first-timers rather than shaving some minutes off) I'm not sure which tactic is the best. We had the same stable runs down to 15-25% pretty much every single time as it sounds like you had, and the main difference seems to be that you "stack" the Warriors where we killed each wave before the next spawned.

    As for speedruns I guess it's a matter of taste. I'm really not in the mood to do this fight on a regular basis either way, and the massive t1 farm didn't make it any better.
    19 minutes is very impressive that way, that just shows how much we could improve on the 200%. I think for first timers focusing on keeping it even would be easier than staggering one side perfectly each time - thoughts? A bit more damage on each tank is a small price to pay when keeping it simple.

    As for doing this on a regular basis I totally agree with you haha I simply was trying to make it more "fun" by making it faster.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    One thing I've wondered about is the updating of morale on the bosses. In both the videos from you and Ramble On the morale seems to tick down rather smoothly and precisely, which is not quite the experience I have when playing. I stole this picture from Angdal:

    As you can (hopefully) see, despite the bosses being ~13k/1.4% from eachother according to plugin and boss vitals, there is no Blood Brother on the boss. This is an issue that bothered me quite a lot when we did this fight and I wonder what causes it, especially if you're not having that issue.
    Actually, we have had similar issues with slow morale updates on the Trolls, we just went lighter on DPS as a result, and were quick to react. Your (very useful) plugin looked like a life-saver to us, but we ended up finding that we'd try to be more precise and due to LOTRO updating slower than we'd like it didn't work out so we didn't end up using it. =/

    LOTRO doing things as precise as Blood-Brothers when the updating is a little... slow/inconsistent can be a little annoying.
    Last edited by canyouaddcolour; Apr 01 2013 at 11:35 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour View Post
    I like how efficient you guys are. Definitely some nice stuff in here to make the raids more accesible to more people. Our strat likely could have gotten things down to sub 20 mins, but I can see doing your strat in 10 mins or so. We'll likely be implementing some of the things you guys did in our 'farming' strat. Very cool. Nice strat.
    The one obsticle I complained about was the ranged classes who didn't move with the melee suddenly being 1 shot from distributed. I credit you for your comment in the progression thread about the distributed mechanic for giving me an idea about all classes moving with the melee so I only have to heal 1 troll's distributed and it's spread between as many players as possible. The ranged class who didn't want to pile up knew where they needed to not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollof View Post
    200% blood rage seems a little dangerous though, personally if I were to speed up through the inferno I would consider taking time to allow for CDs after the honour guard are down and before inferno.

    I wouldn't worry about Warden tanking though, its about the players and not the classes imo. We do it with a warden, guardian (myself), and two healing RKs, and I have seen some people taking more than two healers.
    Nah, you don't really need any special cds at the start of inferno. It's going to last 5 minutes or more and if heals can't sustain the group w/o cds, you're not going to make it anyway. We were all hating how long the fight was and Yelk asked if healers could heal the Bloodrage while at 200% for the first half of the fight then we just kept with it during inferno, I didn't feel like healing was stretching thin at all. My skill rotation wasn't any different healing our warden v our guardian. I agree, it's all in the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    As for regular tactic I'd guess you're referring to Ramble On or Mellowship as we did it in ~19 minutes despite only having 1 blood rage at most.

    One thing I've wondered about is the updating of morale on the bosses. In both the videos from you and Ramble On the morale seems to tick down rather smoothly and precisely, which is not quite the experience I have when playing. I stole this picture from Angdal:

    As you can (hopefully) see, despite the bosses being ~13k/1.4% from eachother according to plugin and boss vitals, there is no Blood Brother on the boss. This is an issue that bothered me quite a lot when we did this fight and I wonder what causes it, especially if you're not having that issue.

    Hopefully you do pop your CD's before starting the fight in order to reset them straight away?
    Yeah that 19 minutes is impressive. I'm pumped at the idea of a 10m run with 200%.
    As for the morale on the bosses not going smoothly, we always blame lag. Maybe it looks smooth in fraps, but doesn't feel like it ingame. BW is the worst server for performance from the server end. IDK, I like blaming lag.

    And yes, we pop CDs before the start. Just like ToO F&F.
    Last edited by jennirich; Apr 02 2013 at 02:22 AM.
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  22. #22
    The morale and percentages don't update smoothly. It's based on the max morale for whatever you're fighting. The more morale they have, the bigger the visual update will be for the morale changing, so you don't see small differences. The blood brother and rage mechanics however work off their true morale, which is basically independent of what you're seeing.

    The best way I found for handling it was to ignore what the morale/percentage said for the most part and just make sure I didn't see the blood brother buff at all. Then we'd know they were within 1% of each other. Obviously you have to be pretty aware either way.
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  23. #23
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    My apologies, well done.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    The best way I found for handling it was to ignore what the morale/percentage said for the most part and just make sure I didn't see the blood brother buff at all. Then we'd know they were within 1% of each other. Obviously you have to be pretty aware either way.
    Yup, that's pretty much exactly how we'd do it, seemed to be the most reliable way.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt78 View Post
    I don't doubt the video, I know people have done it. It's the guide that I hope is really coming :-)
    I should be able to type most of it tomorrow - got an early morning tomorrow so logging for tonight.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

 

 
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