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  1. #1
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    Jan 2011
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    Captain tanks: how do you stay alive?

    I've done plenty of 6-mans now where the only healer is me (charge captain) healing with Rallying Cry and Inspire. The tanks don't even seem like they are the ones in need of healing.

    I've been considering the whole Captain-tank possibility, just so I don't have to make another guy, but I can't figure out where the survivability would come from. In tank gear, both the magnitude and quantity of heals I'd produce would be smaller due the drop in Might/critical rating. How does a Captain-tank survive without a dedicated healer?

  2. #2
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    Short answer: I don't.

    Long answer:
    I need to min/max for as much vitality as possible so my morale pool is as big as possible, while also adding in as much crit defence and tactical mitigations (armor and what little might I have generally takes care of physical mitigations). AFAIK, this doesn't have a significant impact on threat generation. This is what I have found works, and it also keeps your healer from spontaneously combusting.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  3. #3
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    Yeah, threat is trivial. The hurdle I'm having is figuring out how I keep myself alive with the tools I have.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Yeah, threat is trivial. The hurdle I'm having is figuring out how I keep myself alive with the tools I have.
    What is your particular problem? I don't tank all that much, to be honest, but last night we were short a tank so I tanked the 2nd troll in BoE T1 last night 4 times on my Capt, only died on a complete raid wipe (didn't die first by a long shot there). We did the burn other troll down first, burn mine down second approach, with Inferno and Catapults. I had 17K morale, 64.8% physical and tactical mit (both were same, oddly), something like 15/14/6 B/P/E. Got a bit nerve-wracking a few times (mini got stunned), but mostly wasn't bad. By time they came to my troll, I had enough aggro to keep him against all-out DPS.

    Survivability didn't feel like a big issue to me here -- not as survivable as a guard/warden, but seemed enough
    My biggest issue tanking is AOE threat and power. I needed to pot twice each fight, which doesn't happen to me doing LtC or HoH these days.

    You mention "keep yourself alive" -- not really the tanks job IMHO, largely the healers. It isn't reasonable to expect you to tank and completely heal yourself other than in really easy content. Tanks main job is to manage threat. Mind you, a good tank also mitigates damage, both by skills/equipment and by obeying fight mechanics like not standing in fire, avoiding avoidable damage, etc. Having a higher incoming healing rating certainly helps, and doing some self healing (reflected Inspires, SfW, rallying cry, valiant strike, pots, last stand, To Arms, ICMR even) also helps. On your Captain you probably are not usually as easy to keep alive as a Guard or Warden, and on the hardest content it may not be possible. But we do pretty well...

  5. #5
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    Like the others have said, if you're tank specced you're not expected to be healing at the same time. Any other class could heal you (I've been successfully healed by another captain on my captank) but you're not gonna generate enough self-heals in tank spec to keep yourself alive like wardens can.

  6. #6
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    May 2008
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    How to survive tanking?
    SfW + Muster Courage legacy.
    2 pieces of Perseverance set.
    ToN on swap emblem.
    Melee skills healing legacy.
    VS healing legacy is probably better than a Vitality legacy for a Captank.
    SfW gives me a HoT roughly equal to a VS pulse for 12s of each 20s. That kind of self-heal is enough to tank the warg pens T2C boss while your friends handle the adds.
    ToN is saved for emergencies.

    Surviving is the least of Captanks problems on most content.

  7. #7
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    Yeah, honestly, I don't feel survivability is a problem. Maybe if you're not stacking Vitality. It's really essential that you break 10k morale before buffs. On top of that, you need your mitigations as close to cap as possible.

    Personally, I achieve >60% of both just off of Hytbold gear and some random Vit jewelry I cobbled together. (It's my graduating semester, so I've been too busy to work on a complete tank set with separate LIs and all that. Alas.)
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  8. #8
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    Surviving is mostly about your build, as with guards. We got some things we can do to help stay alive, like keep up Def Strike buff and if you're using 4-HLeader the SS buff. Pop inspire constantly, SfW Muster Courage if traited, VS when needed. I have less experience captanking than I used to in RoI, but at the same time more experience tanking without a healer. That said, that healer-less captanking experience I have is very limited. I have tanked IP T2C in U9 with no healer, SH T2C in U9 with no healer, and WP T2C in U10 with no healer. That bolded U10 is very important, as it's a lot easier than it used to be.

    IP T2C, I was sorta glass cannon in LtC, though I swapped to S&B for Guthfinn. Um for the adds I'd take two including the brute if there was one and the other two would take one guy each. Not really tanking so much as dividing and conquering because--lets face it--the adds in there are each about the equivalent of "tough" quest mobs like the Defiler in GR Wailing Hills. The difference is you get more defeat responses from your buddies and they get your heals and buffs. For Guthfinn, I found Reveal Mark was a must and tanking adds was too much; defeat responses from adds was a huge help. Hulf was a pushover, just don't get hit by what you can run away from. I suspect I would have done better on Guthfinn by stacking high vit since I had some for-sure defeat responses from those adds.

    SH T2C is a totally different animal, and main-tanking and main-healing that really means, for me, kiting while the DPS off-tanks whatever boss they're burning. In U9 I'd have to Reveal Mark what was being burned, but in U10 I could forgo that and rely on RC + WoC. I'd just Noble Mark the Gorthorog for lolz so I could hold aggro the entire fight. I've done this in a multitude of traits, but I always stuck with the same gear spec. High vitality, basically my tank armor + 2 Perseverance. I found the multitude of defeat responses gave me enough heals even as my OGH % dropped, and I also believe that preventing damage if the worst happens and bats stun is important. With the U10 nerf, I now turn around and Pressing Attack for lolz when I am bored of kiting.

    WP T2C used to be hell on many tanks, but it's been defanged. This, I tanked in 5y/2b with SfW and NfW as blues. Full tank gear, I think. Straight up, for the add-pulls I found that the defeat responses from dead wargs was enough to keep me up when combined with VS and Inspire and Muster Courage. Athgrat didn't hit too hard. For Kranklob, I was topped off while my two champs were killing the wargs one-by-one. I started to drop in health, was refilled by a nice kick CJ, and started to drop again. When both of us were half-health, the champs ended up pulling aggro at the 2nd of 3 threat reset points and not bothering to lay off and give it back. I'm pretty sure I could have survived if they'd let me keep the aggro, but it woulda been by the skin of my teeth. Now, would a LtC, high crit build have been better there for survivability? No, not while wargs were dying and feeding me. Healing is important, but so is preventing damage. Maybe maybe after I stopped getting fed though.

  9. #9
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    Um, why not a dedicated healer? Guards and wardens have dedicated healers, and they have much larger morale pools.

    So...think like a guard?

    Vitality, tons of vit. Since other tanks get five morale per vit, and we only get three, find all the vit and morale you can! My mits are capped. Relics/items for incoming healing and crit defense. Shield for crit def. Trait/spam self heals.

    But yeah, forget about healing significantly with no might, I've never really healed with my captank, but the green bars barely move when I do hit those skills in my vit gear. In Battle, after I tank the first troll, I do swap a dozen pieces of gear to get some might to help heal during Inferno.

    I've mostly tanked six person content, in something like Io's, I've been told I don't need much healing for trash and tend to recommend healers trait more for the DPS end of things (minis that know how to heal in war-speech are great there, I tend to give RKs notice before the adds come on final boss so they can adjust skills to maximize DPS).



    "Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    But yeah, forget about healing significantly with no might, I've never really healed with my captank, but the green bars barely move when I do hit those skills in my vit gear. In Battle, after I tank the first troll, I do swap a dozen pieces of gear to get some might to help heal during Inferno.

    "Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
    I beg to differ. Might is more useful in tanking gear for captains than it is for guards/champs. And while dedicating stat slices of gear to critical may look awkward, there are only a few pieces of gear with double slices of critical:
    earrings, bracelets, pocket and cloak, and Captains have gear on those slots with might/parry/block/vit to go with the added critical. Only in the msot extrem of situations would a Captain give, for example, the earrings of necromancer tower.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    I beg to differ. Might is more useful in tanking gear for captains than it is for guards/champs. And while dedicating stat slices of gear to critical may look awkward, there are only a few pieces of gear with double slices of critical:
    earrings, bracelets, pocket and cloak, and Captains have gear on those slots with might/parry/block/vit to go with the added critical. Only in the msot extrem of situations would a Captain give, for example, the earrings of necromancer tower.
    But here's the kicker, anything less than about 15% or so crit chance isn't going to matter all that much (which is about 1 in 6 chances to pull a crit off of DB/PA, which means about once every two minutes, since the tanking captain will most likely not have Renewed Voice slotted).

    The might point is rather interesting, and I have contemplated a 50/50 split tanking build, but doing so would lose a fair amount of morale, something that needs a lot of vitality to build anyhow.... I'm not really convinced that might is something to actively build for while tanking (especially if you're tanking harder content).

    I have to wonder though, are you suggesting that tanks not bulk morale and mitigations, and instead be glass tanks?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  12. #12
    I picked up both the healing and tanking Hytbold sets for my captain. Funny thing is, I've discovered that for tanking purposes, it's actually better to go sword/board and stack might rather than relying on vitality to survive longer. Not only do you get more block rating, but your heals and DPS are better, allowing you to better self-heal and keep aggro. The bonuses provided by Vitality aren't really necessary - you have plenty of ways of sustaining yourself and are innately tanky - but the extra survivability from having a shield is definitely not to be overlooked. Heck, I've found that I sometimes tank better when traited red/blue, since I get to spam Rallying Cry more often and don't need to rely on Noble Mark/snap taunts to keep aggro.

    Of course, I'm sure these experiences don't apply to bigger jobs, such as tanking BfE. In those cases, it would probably be better to just stack Vitality, since you'll have a dedicated healer and will want to make their life as easy as possible.

  13. #13
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    Apr 2011
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    I have tanked three mans traited 4 red and 3 blue. If the DPS is capable of going slow or is not great then I can do 6 mans as well. I definitely lack the morale and the tac mit to do BfE with inferno if I am still tanking once the flames come up. Though I am probably not too far from tanking one that is not being dpsed. A couple k more morale would do it I think.

  14. #14
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    May 2008
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    Again, i beg to differ: slotting SfW is actually quite useful for a captank.

    You self heal for 12s each 20s, and by doing so you generate treat.

    One possible skill rotation, actually tested in bells of dale t1 and warg pens t2c is to alternate defensive strike/sure strike with treatening shout and muster courage, along the natural valiant strike and inspire. i rarely have the chance to do BS>SS> BoE, unless i'm out of ToN or in sore need of a PS to pull multiple adds. It works both in LoM and HoH tanking builds. If i am needing a critical to land while in tanking mode, i'm probably already dead. usually i'm doing BS>PS in order to get BoE for a buffed TS or WoC, not because i dream about a defeat response.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Um, why not a dedicated healer? Guards and wardens have dedicated healers,
    No, they do not need them, as explained in the OP. If you've never been on a 6 man with absolutely no healers, you might think so, but I have been on numerous 6 mans with a Guardian or Warden and 5 dps guys who throw zero heals throughout.

    I started this thread looking for if and how Captanks could do that.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    No, they do not need them, as explained in the OP. If you've never been on a 6 man with absolutely no healers, you might think so, but I have been on numerous 6 mans with a Guardian or Warden and 5 dps guys who throw zero heals throughout.

    I started this thread looking for if and how Captanks could do that.
    As explained in the OP, you stated that you've run many runs with you healing on captain. There was absolutely no mention of you running a guard and 5 DPS classes.

    If a guard can survive with absolutely no heals, I'm betting a captain can survive in most of those situations as well just fine, even if it's just throwing out Rallying Cries from dying adds and from Inspire. Guards have significantly smaller self-healing than captains do, their only major advantage in survivability is Pledge.

    Wardens have massive self-heals so it's no surprise they can survive.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Wardens have massive self-heals so it's no surprise they can survive.
    It's been said that a warden needs a group to speed up the soloing of instances.....
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

 

 

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