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  1. #1

    Music System Discussion Spring 2016

    Hello Folks,

    ./wave

    I wanted to bring to the forums a discussion which some players were having in the backstage chatroom (LBC-chat channel) at the Greenfields event this past weekend. It would also be nice to extend it further.
    My goal for bring this subject to the forums is to help game developers see what the player base like about the music system and possible changed/improvements we would like for the future.
    As the music system user player base is extensive, combining different folks with a whole range of tastes and wants. I do not expect us all to agree, but I hope we can agree that we love creating music for LOTRO and wish to continue to do so, for a while longer.


    So here are a few questions I wish to poll everyone, you never know one or two of our wishes may seep into our gaming experience. If you could share your brief LOTRO musical and experience it may help gauge the common feeling between us.

    Here I go:

    About me: Lilikate Buggins, arranger of abc. files for various bands currently The Ninny Hammers. 3 years experience.

    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?

    I have an issue with the sample cap of the music system, Before the music system updates we could hear more sounds and perform with a larger band, now the notes clip/cut at random with an arrangement for 9 players. If it would be possible to address this without losing anymore sound quality I would love to be able to have more samples audiable in game.

    I have noticed with this last update that when you sync a song. It begins playing but it can take a few bars for all the parts to gather together on the beat. I don't know if this is because my rig is under par, but I would like to see the drum track on the beat for the entire song and have all the parts begin syncing together on time from the 1st second of airplay.

    Sound quality of instruments, in the latest update we also lost quality of sound in the Horn, I think this was something to do with an attempt to reduce the sample load but I would prefer the old Horn sample with the nice smooth mid range sound and not all the gravel we have atm. There is also an issue with samples clashing, I cite the Horn and Clarinet as an example When both play the same not what is heard is a little strange.


    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love. (yes I do want us to talk about the positive aspects of the music system as it stands now).

    I love the in-tune clarinets and the nice flute sample in the top range. This includes the general improvement to the Pibgorn sample. I do like the increased range of the player music sound that is a vast improvement to the issues we have had with the directional sound limitations.

    I would like to praise the music system, I am rewarded with hours of fun because it exists and I love using it. My LOTRO time is enhanced and I look forward to Saturdays when The Ninny Hammers perform on Bree Stage. I could not praise enough the people behind making the system or those who contribute, with plugins and converter programs to make our arranging experience easier Thank you all.


    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.

    I would like to see a quality improvement to some of the sound samples.

    I would love to see new instruments introduced, I would love a sustained string (violin), and Oboe and a real Bassoon. I would love some real brass instruments, both Trumpet, Horn, and Trombone. I do feel that our present Horn sounds more like a Sax, and although I can trumpet sometimes with the pib I would love a real trumpet. I think some instruments like a Sitar may be fun seeing as we head east in LOTRO with the Epic over the next year or more. Other folks I know have their ideas so I shan't mention any more Oh and Timpani!
    Last edited by Katiepie; Mar 23 2016 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Because I typo!

  2. #2
    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?

    1. Sound samples fixed. The trouble we are still having with the note cap. There are still many songs we used to be able to transcribe and have work well in game that still won't play right under the new music system. Songs with note heavy lute of ages or harp will still cut notes out of the clarinet and flute.
    2. The directional issues which seem to tie in to my first complaint. Often you can hear note loss from different directions. Example: A clarinet is used on the right side of the band or on the second row, often will have notes missing if there is a note heavy harp or lute between its position, and the position of the audience.
    Also, the gap on volume dynamics is still to great. The jump from say +mf+ to +f+ (one level of volume change) is still much too drastic. For in game use. I also think each of the differences should be of equal value all the way up the range for each change. Starting with +pppp+ being the quietest and +ffff+ being the loudest. It may just be my ears, but the change from either of the extremes to the next volume dynamic is minimal at best and the change from +mp+ to +mf+ or +mf+ to +f+ deosn't seem to be equal to a change from +f+ to +ff+ for example. For in game music play, I think it would suit us better if each had an equal change in volume from one to the next.
    3. This one doesn't tie in directly to the music system but still effects us greatly. The /say bug that still exists. This is an old problem that was introduced some time back and is a huge inconvenience to the singers during concerts.

    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love.

    1. The replacement of the missing clarinet and horn notes.
    2. That the instruments are now more in tune with each other.
    3. The GM support of our music events!

    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.

    1. Additional instruments. We were teased some time back about new instruments. I would love to see this happen.
    2. The removal of level restrictions on instruments.
    3. Instruments not requiring the use of inventory space. I have for much too long had to dedicate way to much inventory space to my instruments. Currently we must dedicate 13 inventory spaces for our instruments. Add them to the wallet or something please!

    Fincin of Landroval
    Level 100 Minstrel
    *Les Beaux Chapeaux Bandmember,* Transciber, Officer
    Founder of the Hobbit Coalition for Giving us Bunny Cosmetic Pets
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")
    Hugger of Bunnys

  3. #3
    Don't wake the sleeping dogs!!!

    We didn't get any improvements so far, Turbine showed us that they don't care about the quality of their changes multiple times.

    What makes you think proposing changes can improve anything?

    After all the experiences with changes to the music system, it is 100% certain that nothing positive can come out of this.
    So I urge you to not follow that road, it'll get worse - and I'll remember you of this post of mine after that happened,
    because I know our music community well enough that they are going to try anyway.

    Good luck ... I'm mentally preparing for the impact again ...
    Bruzo, Dwarrowdelf Minstrel ~ "A Rock & a Hard Place"

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf View Post
    Don't wake the sleeping dogs!!!

    We didn't get any improvements so far, Turbine showed us that they don't care about the quality of their changes multiple times.

    What makes you think proposing changes can improve anything?

    After all the experiences with changes to the music system, it is 100% certain that nothing positive can come out of this.
    So I urge you to not follow that road, it'll get worse - and I'll remember you of this post of mine after that happened,
    because I know our music community well enough that they are going to try anyway.

    Good luck ... I'm mentally preparing for the impact again ...
    This. I do NOT want to redo my ABCs again
    Jobbing musician that resides in Bree. Frequenter of Taverns and places of ill repute

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf View Post
    Don't wake the sleeping dogs!!!

    We didn't get any improvements so far, Turbine showed us that they don't care about the quality of their changes multiple times.

    What makes you think proposing changes can improve anything?

    After all the experiences with changes to the music system, it is 100% certain that nothing positive can come out of this.
    So I urge you to not follow that road, it'll get worse - and I'll remember you of this post of mine after that happened,
    because I know our music community well enough that they are going to try anyway.

    Good luck ... I'm mentally preparing for the impact again ...

    I know that there are many views and opinions about the music system and it's improvements and you have responded very clearly your feelings.

    I think having a few more instruments may be fun to play with that's all, I am sorry you seem to be so angered at my simple call for others to share their views. I don't happen to agree with your strength of response or some of your beliefs but I do feel this is the place to express them. You still play music in LOTRO so there must be something about it that you love??

    You needen't prepare yourself for anything, as if my stupid thread could actually make a difference... I was just gobbing off.

  6. #6
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    Nah, Lili, not angered and I don't think Bruzo is. Just the wounds from U15 are still raw.

    I agree with everything you and Finny said. New instruments are fine but much as I want new samples and, especially, increased octave range, I fear the worst. If only it could be developed as a new, separate system - but that's a pipe dream.

    I would like the old horn back
    Jobbing musician that resides in Bree. Frequenter of Taverns and places of ill repute

  7. #7
    That is in part why I didn't add a new octave range to my list of wants. As much as that would be awesome, I've no faith we will get anything more done. I would like to see things improved, but honestly don't see it happening. I could give a **** less about having to grind 5 more levels, but would have loved some work done to fix things that are messed up. I think they put their resources and efforts in the wrong area this time around.

    Fincin of Landroval
    Level 100 Minstrel
    *Les Beaux Chapeaux Bandmember,* Transciber, Officer
    Founder of the Hobbit Coalition for Giving us Bunny Cosmetic Pets
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")
    Hugger of Bunnys

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emere View Post
    I think they put their resources and efforts in the wrong area this time around.
    you are right! They are absolutely wrong in putting resources in what 95% of the game needs fixing, much more in need than a music system. Gameplay, lag, datacenter and all that stuff that affects the greater populace. Music might need a fix, but you already had 2 and you were happy with none. I like the music system and would love new instruments, but I know also it is of secondary importance to the consume of resources. And honestly, with attitudes like ShorschiSchrumpf shows, their resources are best spent to keep the majority of lotro playerbase. Music system is loved by a consistent group of people, and I hope you get something done about it as long as you approach the devs with the right attitude and not "I can do better than the game developers themselves and if they don't do it as I want they are incompetent!"
    Last edited by elvenes; Mar 24 2016 at 08:06 AM.

  9. #9
    Funny discussion, to make a little comparison:

    I feel like someone who stands next to a cliff and watched three people dancing at the edge and then falling down. Now a fourth comes and starts dancing at the edge. I'm telling that person to take a step back to avoid falling to a certain death and the answer I get is: I heard how you feel about this, but with that attitude we can never overcome gravity.
    Bruzo, Dwarrowdelf Minstrel ~ "A Rock & a Hard Place"

  10. #10
    Yeah!

    About me: Zedrock(k), writer of midi files and arranger of abc. files for two bands : Bara Bahau and Les Chantefables with 4 years experience.
    I'm also editor for LOTROartists.com calendar events and full Livestreamer for many musical events.

    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?

    - Technically, sample cap coud be fine to be improved to play with big bands.

    - I agree, for my own, it seems there's an issue with the first bar for many instruments to be in synch with other. All my first notes are ~ eating ~.

    - About Sound quality of instruments, hem : Maybe it's because choice of the Sound designer but I disagree with the strong reverb effect which give a strong kind of ~ brilliance ~ (in the bad way) on some instruments and not on other... for me, it's not enough good balanced and sound strange.

    The new Sound design is very restricting for many various style of music we could be able to play in-game. It really improves Jazz tunes, but detoriates many hard-rock (and familly extended) tunes. I wish to have a more neutral Sound design.

    So, yes, the Stereo sound design is very inaccurate. I'm still thinking it's useless.

    - As some, I'm missing old Horn and old bagpipes.

    - Last but not least, for me the first easy fix to do : fix the say bug, please(*). I ardently wish to see the channel say bug fixed. Because the sound has lost its attractiveness, the lyrics have become very important for a lot of show and it is pathetic to sing in a vacuum. The public will more easily take advantage of quality work that we put in our lyrics. The lyrics and talks from the bands are a big part for the interactivity with the crowd, it makes the music community be together.

    - In the same, I disagree with the increasing of music range which is useless. Seems, it's only a tips Devs found to fix the directional sound limitations. It could be a clue to understand that the music system, in short range is just a mess or bad. More, it's ridiculous to have a such high range for the music and a range for the say channel which sometimes reaches zero.

    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love. (yes I do want us to talk about the positive aspects of the music system as it stands now).

    - In-tune and false notes fixed. For me, it was the big thing we expected since the beginning. That's done for the whole (and that's why I'm very disappointed with the new sound design which go with this fix but was in no way necessary at this step).

    - Clarinet is useable.

    - Pibgorn is still funny and really useable.

    - LOTRO Music System is unique and an awesome in-game goodies (maybe more than that) for players to do amazing things and makes LOTRO and communities living.

    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.

    - Why not some other instruments as violin and of course sustained strings.

    - By now, I do not expect anything more from the music system, just fix the say bug, please(*) to have a full entertainment music system efficient and still have fun ingame.

    - I agree wit' fincin :
    Instruments not requiring the use of inventory space. I have for much too long had to dedicate way to much inventory space to my instruments. Currently we must dedicate 13 inventory spaces for our instruments. Add them to the wallet or something
    could be fine now

    - I add : It's minor but Layers system should be review in case of musical events. It's always a bit annoyin'.

    ./toasts

    Zed'fix the say bug, please(*)'Rock

    P.S. In respect of its investment to offer us many precision tools for working with the music system, I support SchorschiSchrumpf and his dark humour.

    (*) Subliminal message and my priority from the RAW Rock!
    Last edited by zedrock; Mar 24 2016 at 02:22 PM.

  11. #11
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    I like to think that when you play an ABC file, it isn't samples you hear. No those little hamsters that power the lotro servers get out their kazoos and elastic bands and that is what you hear as they process your ABC. Of course this sidetracking of the hamsters causes less power to be available for processing other parts of the server and lots of people elsewhere (usually MT) crash.

    Mutineer - Dwarrowdelf/Gladden

  12. #12
    What a huge bunch of moaning minnies you all are! My word, all I asked was for a mature discussion and I get a music system comparison to people falling off a cliff, are you guys serious?? This is just a game we all play with and not a life or death situation. Seriously get a grip...

    Lets look at the weekend we have all just come from where we gathered on the Greenfields where more than 25 hours of music was played to the entertainment of the crowd. There are many of us including you Bruzo who make wonderful music inspite of the flaws of the system.

    Why should we not ask for a FIX to the SAY BUG? or mayhaps one or two more sounds to select when we are arranging? It's not that big of a deal.
    I too would love to have the old Horn back and something done about the layering system which kills me whenever I have headed to Evernight. Why may I not even ask? It is my feeling and my truth and I would quite like it.

    You know I agree with you about some of the changes we have had in recent time, but the manner in which you express yourself seems to detract from your argument rather than lend weight to it.

    I believe in my heart of hearts that the Devs at Turbine do care, and do their best with whatever resources they have. I don't know what good can be gained by bashing them all the time? Surely a constructive and well mannered critique would serve the community better?

    I feel now really dispondant at method of the negative responses on this thread, if the music system is so terrible and Turbine such evil beasts why oh why do you still log in each week and play music? You must feel something positive about the system to even bother, even in it's present state.

    Please if your going to continue to add to this thread, keep out the personal, make your arguments in a mature and adult manner and expect that we love your views and believe them to be valid, as are mine and other posters who may or may not disagree with you.

    Thank you, Lilikate.

  13. #13
    It's sad that this turned into a personal attack thread.

    I started stating arguments on why I don't think this is a good idea and all that comes back is insults to myself and others instead of responding/discussing the points. Well if that is the level of discussion here I guess I better shut up and leave you to it.

    Bruzo

    p.s.: I posted this like almost a year ago with pretty precise instructions on how to improve the system a lot by getting the instruments way more aligned in volume - that's where they should start: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ou-to-fix-this
    Bruzo, Dwarrowdelf Minstrel ~ "A Rock & a Hard Place"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SchorschiSchrumpf View Post
    It's sad that this turned into a personal attack thread.

    I started stating arguments on why I don't think this is a good idea and all that comes back is insults to myself and others instead of responding/discussing the points. Well if that is the level of discussion here I guess I better shut up and leave you to it.

    Bruzo

    p.s.: I posted this like almost a year ago with pretty precise instructions on how to improve the system a lot by getting the instruments way more aligned in volume - that's where they should start: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ou-to-fix-this
    Bruzo I have the highest respect for you and all you have done for the music community, if being called a moaning minny is a personal attack that hurt your feelings then I am sorry. However I did ask you some pointed questions that you have yet to answer and I stated my case quite clearly, and discussed my views with clarity.

    It is your view that the system be left well alone as your experience of past updates have not been positive. I can understand your view... and welcome you to add it here. Thanks for the link, if folks wish to know your position in more detail they can head on over there Please don't feel you need to respond to this thread any further, this is just my apology to you personally if your feelings are bruised. It was not my intent to upset you, but to have you respect my viewpoint as much as I respect yours. Your suggestion I am teetering on a cliff edge in opening a discussion (which is all this thread was supposed to be) makes me feel, you don't understand my position at all.

  15. #15
    I'm the bandleader of DisEnchanted and it's sole transcriber. I also have quite a few abc files floating around middle earth that are played by others. I'm not a real life musician but I know enough to realize when things aren't right. I do realize that there are many other things that require attention like data center issues and such but I would like to think that over time we may receive a few things here or there. I think I can speak for the folks that would like some more work to the music system by saying that no one expects everything overnight. We would just like for Turbine to look at it more when they can and maybe make a few more changes when they are able to. If they can't then they can't and we'll soldier on. If they can throw us something then YAY! I'm here to let Turbine know that there is still an interest in correcting or adding to the music system although I don't want it further damaged in the process.

    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?

    NOTE CAP! It effectively kills the large arrangements that were once commonplace.
    SAY BUG! Why this annoying thing can't be fixed is beyond me but it is still a problem.
    LEVEL RESTRICTIONS ON INSTRUMENTS! We travel to and fro from server to server and would love to play more events in more places but having to level up toons just to be able to play instruments, like the bagpipes, is ridiculous to me. I have a great time playing music in game but this really makes it hard for us and is unnecessary work for toons that will possibly remain at the level needed to attain the instrument.

    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love. (yes I do want us to talk about the positive aspects of the music system as it stands now).

    IN TUNE INSTRUMENTS! I'm happy that everything seems to be in tune finally!
    GM SUPPORT! I'm amazed sometimes at how fast the GMs respond to incidents at the concerts!

    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.

    INCREASED OCTAVE RANGE! There are literally thousands of tunes that can not be accurately transcribed to play in game. I love Boogie-Woogie style piano music but I can't get much of it to translate well due to the higher octave range of most of it. Many tunes from many genres just can't be converted to play in game.
    TIMPANI! I would love a Timpani for the things that require it.
    BELLS OR MARIMBA TYPE INSTRUMENT! Certain tunes would come alive with these types of instruments.
    ADDITIONAL BRASS AND WOOD INSTRUMENTS! Having some more instruments to cover parts with different tones other than what we have.
    MOVING INSTRUMENTS TO WALLET! I'd love to see something other than having to drag instruments all around with me taking up all the space in my bags.
    Sir Weet
    Lord High Master of DisEnchanted kinship and band
    Purveyor of Sarcastic Drivel and General Nonsense

  16. #16
    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?

    Note cap & the time it takes for all the instruments to get in time with each other at the start of a song. I do tend to notice this more in my personal testing but have noticed it a little when I have just been an audience member, it takes a few seconds for the timing to sort itself out. I seem to notice it more with drums than other instruments, but that doesn't necessarily mean the drums are an issue they might simply be more obvious about the issue.

    I also miss some aspects of the old horn & bagpipes. The grunty lower end of the new horn range is certainly great for some songs, but really doesn't work in others. Much the same with the bagpipes minus the gruntiness. I have a few songs that I really cannot do anything to "fix" how they now sound and just won't play them any more.


    The /say bug. Think others have covered that one well enough, there's not really anything more I can add to that one.


    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love. (yes I do want us to talk about the positive aspects of the music system as it stands now).

    The community is a huge aspect of the enjoyment of the music system. If we were just playing for ourselves I doubt many people would persevered like they have. With that is the more recent GM activty at events.

    Instruments in general being more in-tune is great. I am also glad they gave us the old lute & harp sounds back. On one hand they still have issues, but it means less tweaking of old files plus more sounds to work with


    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.

    Like a lot of people, I would welcome more instruments in the tool box for us to use in creating abc's. I have a very long list of instruments I would love, but really I'd be happy & find a use for anything. There are of course ones that would be more useful than others, so they are what I would go for ahead of say a triangle (yes, I really would like a triangle in game... and with different sounds (eg muted) and pitches too!). Top of the wishlist is sustained strings - violin, viola, cello... after that I could go for either something that fills a gap - like chimes/bells, or something to give more variety though similar to what we have, eg an oboe, or bassoon. With those new instruments, I'd also like them in tune and with a pretty standard volume across all notes in their range before they are introduced to live.

    It had never occured to me to consider level requirements or bag space as something to wish was different about instruments but HECK YEAH!


    And like others, more octaves on current instruments would be nice... but I'd rather the instruments that we currently have are not touched. Past experiences in this department has been anything but pleasant and I'd rather not go through it again. New instruments shouldn't affect what we already have so I feel safe in wishing for those.

    It might not have reached the lofty goals we hoped it would, but I am very grateful for the work that has been put into the music system in the past.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keli View Post
    This. I do NOT want to redo my ABCs again
    Quote Originally Posted by Keli View Post
    Nah, Lili, not angered and I don't think Bruzo is. Just the wounds from U15 are still raw.

    I agree with everything you and Finny said. New instruments are fine but much as I want new samples and, especially, increased octave range, I fear the worst. If only it could be developed as a new, separate system - but that's a pipe dream.

    I would like the old horn back
    As long as they fix stuff before adding new things, I'm game for new instruments. I feel they should, however, consult the playerbase that is interested in the music system for help fixing it.
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________

    Glorgnorbor, A Rock And A Hard Place, Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf!
    If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound? ~Leixy

  18. #18
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    Hello,

    My Lotro end game is the Music Community, after nine years of game play, where I delved deeply into everything except monster play. I play in bands weekly and provide loads of support for and participation in large music community events--that are really quite incredible in which to partake. There is nothing like this in all the other MMOs, so we make music here, in our beloved Middle-earth. I visit multiple servers to attend and participate in musical events. My specialty, and very time consuming activity, is to write Middle-earth adapted lyrics to songs arranged by my band leaders. I spend way too much, highly enjoyable time doing this.

    It's a good thing I love the process of writing song lyrics, because more often than not, many folks in the audience don't see the results of my hard work because of the dratted /say bug. As an example, when we performed at Day on the Greenfields recently, a hobbit in the audience standing two rows back commented on how much she loved my lyrics to a specific song. After that, there was a steady stream of Middle-earth folks walking up the stage to remove the /say bug, because they were behind her and saw her comment. They had already missed several songs sung by my band leader and me. This happens at EVERY concert. Sometimes you lose the ability to see lyrics during the show, especially if you dare to move from your current spot. Sometimes it even happens when you are standing in a band playing! You can't see the lyrics of the singer just a few steps away. If I were on the Turbine team, I would be embarrassed at the frequency of /shout and /regional announcements to take a walk by the band to remove the /say bug. Our chat bubbles should reach as far as the musical sounds. Period.

    I beg of you to fix it. When I mentioned this last to Vyvyanne, she didn't rule it out, which makes me think it is in the realm of possibility.

    Please, please, please fix the /say bug.

    I also endorse the suggestions posted by the superb musicians posting to this list. Because I love rock so much, I would most like to see the old bagpipe and horn sounds back in new instruments, so that the arrangers do not have to redo their ABCs again, but have at their disposal these sounds. The comments on note cap and octave range I thoroughly endorse...but not at the expense of hurting our music system.

    Thanks for listening. #!: /say bug removal!!!!!!!

    Hollyberye

  19. #19
    What if we gave Turbine a simple task first? And then afterwards we could discuss new instruments, more octaves et cetera.
    Though I have a hard time figuring out what any want more octaves for? Just listen to the flute in the higher or lower spectre... same with the clarinet and bagpipe on the higer notes.


    Right. So a simple task for Turbine could be the following:

    Fix the damn say-bug in chat. I mean, how hard can it be ... really.
    The bagpipe: Remove the reverb and that metallic sound that one can hear especially in the higer notes. The current bagpipe has very few similarities with a hmmm bagpipe.
    Flying notes: How about an option to turn them on/off? They can/will cause lag and frame-drops. Not something any of us want.

    There. Three simple tasks ... in my mind. If Turbine can/will fix those without messing up other stuff, then I'm all in for discussing other fixes for the current system and perhaps new features.



    Sev - Instant Play

  20. #20
    Why a lot of us want a extra octave or two is because most songs we transcribe, go past the three octave limit causing you to have to shift octaves up or down or transcribing all the parts up or down a few steps in a sometimes vain attempt to get all the notes in the three octave range. Most time it is fruitless as in you will always have notes out of range no matter how much you shift parts around.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000029110f/signature.png]Orladan[/charsig]

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlor View Post
    Why a lot of us want a extra octave or two is because most songs we transcribe, go past the three octave limit causing you to have to shift octaves up or down or transcribing all the parts up or down a few steps in a sometimes vain attempt to get all the notes in the three octave range. Most time it is fruitless as in you will always have notes out of range no matter how much you shift parts around.
    Isn't that what all the arrangers need to do also in real life? Not all the instruments can play as many octaves as a keyboard can.

    But after thinking about all these things .. I think I'd like one new feature: pitchbends

    With pitchbends we can fix the pitches that are still not perfect manually, also we can play in different tunings - it would give us the chance to do some real musical magic.
    Bruzo, Dwarrowdelf Minstrel ~ "A Rock & a Hard Place"

  22. #22
    Huh. It appears that, for all the time I was following this old thread, I never gave my own reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katiepie View Post
    Q1: If you had to name two/three issues about the Music System at present that require attention/fixing what would they be? and Why are you unhappy with these issues at the moment?
    1: Bad sound samples on Basic Harp
    It ruins many songs to have those notes howling so very jarringly above all the others. (It's only couple notes out of the 37. The worst offender, IIRC, being the high B.)

    It has always been that way. And it's not just my ears or sound equipment — many others have agreed that it sounds just awful. But I'm surprised that, after all this time and all the tweaking on other instruments, Turbine has still never addressed this issue.

    It's not merely an issue of volume, but of voice. Each time one of those notes is played, it sounds like an overtightened string snapping. Clearly, the samples were bad (or badly processed). Fixing that would not adversely affect any existing music files, so we would not have to re-do any of our ABCs. (Of course, we may have songs for which the sour note originally forced us to transpose them into less-than-ideal keys in order to avoid it. If those sounds were fixed, we could re-pitch those tunes into keys that are currently unusable.)

    I put that at #1 because replacing just those few samples (not sure of the mechanics, but I'm guessing that each note is made up of probably not more than three samples: for attack, sustain, and release) seems like it would be a very minor task compared to the many big changes and instrument overhauls Turbine has performed in maintenance of the music system. Granted, even minor tasks can be labour intensive. And I don't expect Turbine to divert much developer attention away from endgame at this point.

    2: The /SAY bug
    This issue should actually top my list in terms of importance to me, but I place it at the penultimate spot because it may be so difficult to remedy that it's too pie-in-the-sky to expect it will ever be addressed. (And, as others have said, it is not really a music system issue.)

    I'm pretty sure that the behaviour is an intentional feature, and not really a “bug”. The purpose is so that your zone of /say channel awareness lags behind you as you move, because continuing to “hear” says from places near where you just were is generally more important than picking them up from areas you have not been to.

    Being able to turn off that feature (so that the zone becomes a simple radius) or, preferably, being able to turn on an “audience mode” (for which the awareness zone would be broad and deep in front of you, but perhaps extend only 15m to the sides and behind you), would be great. While it would still require an action on the player's part, it would be preferable to needing to rush the stage.

    Come to think of it, a mechanism that would probably be even better than a mode toggle would be having a zone reset command. While standing in the audience (or on stage), typing “/AUDIENCE” (or maybe “/CONCERT”) would lock your /say channel awareness to that zone I just described, so you can “hear” the whole crowd. The lock would then persist until you leave the zone (or maybe until your character's subsequent movements total more than X number of meters), at which point the zone definition returns to the default method (that is, a lagging zone based on history of most recent movement). If you then lose the lock due to movement, just issue another reset.

    Hmm. . .I'm liking that remedy quite a bit. Still not entirely passive, but /SHOUTing “Type /CONCERT If you don't see the lyrics!” would result in much less disruption than encouraging everyone to rush the stage (which isn't even all that reliable, anyway…sometimes I have to re-do it a few times, or even start from behind the band, in order to get the zone to extend all the way back to where I wish to stand).

    Another aspect of the /SAY bug that seldom gets mentioned is that we performers, unlike audience members, currently have no way to reset our zone without leaving the stage. Seeing audience reactions/comments/quips is part of the fun of playing…it saddens me to think that I might be missing some of them. (In truth, I am often too busy to monitor the /say channel very closely while playing, but I typically capture the traffic to a log file and read through it soon afterward.) Being able to reset the zone without moving would be great.

    3: Dropped notes
    This problem seems to have been worsening with every update recently, even with those that had no music system changes. It appears as though the overall processing load may have increased enough that there are insufficient resources available for sound processing. No matter what machine I use. I don't know for sure whether it's caused by the game client or by something on the server end impacting the sound quantising. Songs that were previously fine (even after the note cap was lowered) now drop and stutter. Even on some really light songs that don't approach the note-saturation thresholds anywhere.


    Q2: Please state two or three things about the music system at the present moment that you love. (yes I do want us to talk about the positive aspects of the music system as it stands now).
    My main love about it (that makes all others seem almost insignificant) is that it brings us together. (Sure, that passion occasionally also drives us apart, but the question was about love.)


    Q3: Discuss ideas you would love to see included within the present music system, these can be things like sound quality, new instruments, extra goodies like the ability to sync lyrics with the abc file.
    Removing level restrictions and/or having some means other than inventory space for storing instruments would be nice, but they are so very far down on my list of things I would like to see in the game.

    Likewise, supporting pitch bends would be nice (since so much source music has them, typically resulting in either a conspicuous gap or an off-key squeak in the game if not corrected, which is often pretty difficult to do). Standard ABC supports them, but LotRO's subset of it does not. However, even if Turbine allowed ABC pitch bends, transcribers would have to hand-code the notation.


    I'm not hoping for new instruments (but I would prefer it to changing the existing ones). I'm not calling for more octaves (which, because the range on some instruments can only be extended up and others only down, would require rewriting all of our existing music to accommodate the instruments that had to be shifted — granted, I expect the chore would prompt someone would script a utility for that). As to restoring the note cap to what it was previously, I suspect that is not possible as, unless I miss my guess, Turbine had to increase the size of each note datum in order to fix some of the other music system issues, and now it simply cannot process as many of them at the same time. (But maybe I'm completely wrong about that.)

 

 

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