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  1. #26
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    Oct 2010
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    Welp, ignoring the math, I just ran some tests. With myself and a couple others in my fellowship watching, we estimated the buff was up ~90% of the time. Sometimes it wouldn't quite refresh before running out, and sometimes it would refresh within 3 seconds of the last application (so 17 seconds left turned into 20 seconds left).

    It helps that autoattacks count as a Harmful Skill, so you can actually get an attack every second or so.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Seattle, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Welp, ignoring the math, I just ran some tests. With myself and a couple others in my fellowship watching, we estimated the buff was up ~90% of the time. Sometimes it wouldn't quite refresh before running out, and sometimes it would refresh within 3 seconds of the last application (so 17 seconds left turned into 20 seconds left).

    It helps that autoattacks count as a Harmful Skill, so you can actually get an attack every second or so.
    The autoattacks are what make the crit proc ring a guaranteed +1500 crit, and why I have that ring slotted.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  3. #28
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    May 2008
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    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The autoattacks are what make the crit proc ring a guaranteed +1500 crit, and why I have that ring slotted.
    Last time i checked the crit ring were a 20% proc, an entire beast altogether. We were debating the angmarim's bracelet 10% proc. A doubt that i would like to clarify is about what fires what proc, since the rings state "on hit" while the bracers state "on every harmful skill".

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Last time i checked the crit ring were a 20% proc, an entire beast altogether. We were debating the angmarim's bracelet 10% proc. A doubt that i would like to clarify is about what fires what proc, since the rings state "on hit" while the bracers state "on every harmful skill".
    So far as I can tell, an autoattack is considered to be a skill by the game. It's the skill that fires when you're not using a specific other skill.

    To me, it seems the difference is between an attack like Pressing Attack only having one shot at triggering the proc on the stat item ("on harmful skill") vs the 14 different chances on a single Pressing Attack to trigger the crit ring (7 targets and 2 attacks per targets, all of which are "hits").

  5. #30
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    May 2008
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    121
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    So far as I can tell, an autoattack is considered to be a skill by the game. It's the skill that fires when you're not using a specific other skill.

    To me, it seems the difference is between an attack like Pressing Attack only having one shot at triggering the proc on the stat item ("on harmful skill") vs the 14 different chances on a single Pressing Attack to trigger the crit ring (7 targets and 2 attacks per targets, all of which are "hits").
    Tested: autoattacks do fire the Might proc on the bracelet.
    Tested: single-target inspire ( i.e using inspire without capstone nor fellowship-brother) can't fire the fellowship wide heal on the new mender's ring.

    To test: Does PA multiple targets fires more easily the proc on the crit ring? Any help here?

  6. #31
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    Dec 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    To test: Does PA multiple targets fires more easily the proc on the crit ring? Any help here?
    Goto the 'Moors, roll the reavers Huey, Louis, and Dewy, and PA on them, and see what happens.

    Can't do it with a targeting dummy, can't do it with freeps (cause we can't have a brawl).
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    You're doing a math that i can't condone:
    1 harmful skill every 2s, with 10% chance to fire a proc on each use, means that after 20s i'm guaranteed to have the proc up.

    If only things were that easy:

    In real life you have 50% to win a head-tails game, but you're not guaranteed to get at least one heads after 2 trys just because your chance is 50% in each try. Playing heads-tails works like this; you get heads 50% of the time on the first try and 50% of the time on the second try:
    1st: 50% heads
    2nd: 50% of the 1st try + (50% of 50% on the second try)= 75%

    For a 10% proc scenario this means:

    1st use:10% chance firing proc, 90% fail
    2nd : add another 9% for a total of 19% chance=10% of first try + 10% of 90%
    3rd: add another ~8.1%, total 27.1%
    4th: add another ~7.3%, total 35.4%
    5th: add another ~6.6%, total 42%
    6th: add another ~5.8%, total 48%
    7th: add another ~5.2%, total 53%
    8th: add another ~4.7%%, total 58%
    9th: add another ~4.3%, total 62%
    10th add another ~3.8%, total ~65%
    Sources:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes'_theorem
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_rule

    Someone more versed may help us with a tree diagram, but i decided to crunch the exact numbers for the Gold bracelet:
    1st:15% to fire up proc
    2nd: 15% + (15% of 85%)= 27.5%
    3rd: 27.5% + (15% of 72.5%)= 38,375%
    4th: 38.375% + (15% of 61.625%)= 47.61875%
    5th:47.61875% + (15% of 52.38125)= 55.4759375

    Having half more chance to fire the proc implies that you gonna need ~half as many tries to activate it, but by now we see were this is going:

    6th: 55.4759375 + (15% of 44,5240625%)= 62,154546875%
    7th: 62.154546875 + (15% of 37,845453125%) = 67,83136484375%
    8th: 67,83136484375 + (15% of 32.16863515625%)= 72,6566601171875%
    9th: 72,6566601171875% + (15% of 27.3433398828125%)= 76.75816109960938%
    10th: 76.75816109960938% + ( 15% of 23.24183890039062%) = 80.24443693466797%

    The Gold Bracelet with a 15% proc chance keeps the buff up ~80% in a "1 harmful skills every 2s" scenario. Please note that while increasing the skill frequency would increase the % of time the proc is up, we would still be a long way from the dreamed "proc up all the time" situation you dreamed about. Making it 2 skills every 3s would end up with ~ 88% proc up on average.

    Turbine did a great job adding proc chances to itemization, adding another tool to stratify math gaming skills among players.

    Looking back at numbers and items, the defensive proc with + 1837 tact and phys mitigation looks yummy, not only because you're gambling in 4 stat slices instead of 2 and a half, but mainly because the more you are getting hit, more likely will the proc fire up, and we can get hit at a frequency much higher than once every 2s.
    Not sure why you had to throw in Bayes here, but chances to have a proc after 10 attempts with 10% chance are quickly calculated:
    1-0.9^10=0.6513 so 65% is right, I just don't see why you need so many calculations for it.

    Though this assumes you're only getting 10 attempts every 20s. In combat I almost always see the buff up, so I'd argue we get more attempts in 20s. (or the tooltip messed up the crit chance) Since auto attack can also trigger it, I'm going for more than 10 attempts every 20s.

    Welp, ignoring the math, I just ran some tests. With myself and a couple others in my fellowship watching, we estimated the buff was up ~90% of the time. Sometimes it wouldn't quite refresh before running out, and sometimes it would refresh within 3 seconds of the last application (so 17 seconds left turned into 20 seconds left).

    It helps that autoattacks count as a Harmful Skill, so you can actually get an attack every second or so.
    1-0.9^20=0.8784 so ~90% seems theoretically and emperically supported.

    A doubt that i would like to clarify is about what fires what proc, since the rings state "on hit" while the bracers state "on every harmful skill".
    I honestly think it's the same thing and Turbine is just being inconsistent. Now I'm wondering if my necklace can proc it lol, I heard someones's has already started an fm :P

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    I honestly think it's the same thing and Turbine is just being inconsistent. Now I'm wondering if my necklace can proc it lol, I heard someones's has already started an fm :P
    Interesting thought. On one hand, it is a seperate attack, so it should count differently than whatever attack triggered it. On the other hand, it appears to be a different source entirely, much how the game ties a pet's attacks to its owner but recognizes them as not directly from the pet owner.

    I don't even think this is possible to test with the +stat gear since it could theoretically proc on the attack that proc'd the necklace, or proc on the necklace's attack itself. Best way to test that is probably with the crit ring and a LOT of attacks. In theory, if the necklace attack can proc the +stat or +crit, eventually it'll tier up the crit buff twice with one attack (once for the actual attack and once for the necklace attack). Good luck testing that though, I know I don't have near enough patience for that.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Interesting thought. On one hand, it is a seperate attack, so it should count differently than whatever attack triggered it. On the other hand, it appears to be a different source entirely, much how the game ties a pet's attacks to its owner but recognizes them as not directly from the pet owner.

    I don't even think this is possible to test with the +stat gear since it could theoretically proc on the attack that proc'd the necklace, or proc on the necklace's attack itself. Best way to test that is probably with the crit ring and a LOT of attacks. In theory, if the necklace attack can proc the +stat or +crit, eventually it'll tier up the crit buff twice with one attack (once for the actual attack and once for the necklace attack). Good luck testing that though, I know I don't have near enough patience for that.
    Haha I was just kidding and didn't think about it. You are right, I have had defeat events where it showed my necklace killed the orc rather than me. So it's treated as a different entity, therefore it won't trigger procs for me, just as a herald wouldn't trigger it for me.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    121
    The whole argument of where to place the angmarim's just became moot to me after i got one keen bracelet of might from the AH to replace the hart's one. And a level 81 guardian pointed me towards the Norcrofts Iron Necklace, the ultimate tanking Necklace, far more easy to obtain than Iulin.

  11. #36
    Thanks loads, this is really useful. I'm finding a lot of good stuff here and reassured that I'm building alt no. 2 in a vaguely sensible sort of way for my current job (HOH mainly).

    Can I add another bracelet to use as a stopgap:

    Entwash Brass Bracelet - 15 riddermarks, +68 might, +68 vit, +712 crit.

    Comments welcome on build:

    Key stats (IDOME and buffs included): 2300 might, 770 vit, 550 fate, 24.5% crit. Buffed, 31k PMR, 27k TMR. 65% phys and 43% tac mit (needs to be higher).

    Weapon: 1h 2A sword (5 majors), purple warg-pens shield (vit eomer shield if I need to tank). 2A emblem again with all the right healing majors.
    Armour: 4 Hyt Healer, Resplendent Cardolan shoulders, Hyt Charge gloves, Dwarven Kings cloak. Helegrod shoulders/gloves in the bag.
    Jewellery: 2xNecro Tower earrings, Eomer vit/tac mit necklace, Dulled Silver and Bronze Wristlet, Entwash Brass OR Eternal Knight OR Enraged Gorthorog [currently the weakest slot], Rancid Oil, Wyrmfire Mender, ring I forget the name of with 150 might and crit defence.

    So a bit of work to do here but nice to know I'm going in the right direction.

    I'm not looking forward to ettensing to get enough comms for 2 perseverance...
    Last edited by Aedfrith; Apr 11 2013 at 06:48 AM.

  12. #37
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    The whole argument of where to place the angmarim's just became moot to me after i got one keen bracelet of might from the AH to replace the hart's one. And a level 81 guardian pointed me towards the Norcrofts Iron Necklace, the ultimate tanking Necklace, far more easy to obtain than Iulin.
    Entwash Iron Necklace and Wold Iron Necklace are both pretty good choices for tanking as well. Sutcrofts one is tank based as well but it's not as good (though it does have a ton of evade).

  13. #38
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    121
    Bumping thread to update new items on U11:

    -Wildermore has 2 new Li titles variants that give ~380 critical and ~960 critical defense, making for further customization of Healing/DPS/Tanking LIs.

    -Barter Bracelets with 150 Might 768 critical and 213 morale are nothing short of amazing.
    -Crafted bracelets with 119 vitality and 800 critical open up some interesting heal/tanks builds.
    -Gold pocket items for tanks and healers. The healer pocket is better than Journal from dungeons but the tanking pocket has vitality, and so most cappy would look for a Horse-lords' Ancient Tome of Protection instead.
    -We finally have access to a teal shield with 150 Might, the unearthed iron shield from school.
    -Some Erebor sets are now working. Greater Erebor sets are for all practical purposes equal or better than previous golden items.
    -Rohan menders ring is now working, and if you have a wyrmfire warriors ring you may trade it for a mender's ring (not recommended, since mender's ring has no finesse)

    As soon as lotro-wiki upload images from these items i'm gonna put them here as well.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Watertown, MA
    Posts
    2,907
    U11 was very good for Captank survivability. Lots of places to get Crit Def, which was previously pretty difficult for us to stack.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

 

 
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