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  1. #1

    The Battle for Erebor Instance Guide Video Re-do

    Some people were complaining that the last upload was too loud, or I didn't go into much detail. So I re-did this video, and now the only problem is a little (but funny) Audio glitch. In this video, I only show the Catapults and Inferno method, because, 1. Its the one we did in the video and 2. Its the easiest/fastest method (or so I'm told). So if you have any questions, leave a comment in the video, and give a thumbs up if it was Educational.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYyOUhNSndI
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    139
    I can really appreciate the effort here, and I really don't mean any offense, but please don't make guides on something you know very little about. For instance, both catapults and inferno come at different morale checkpoints, not time checkpoints (140% combined damage remaining for catapults, 80% combined damage remaining for inferno). Reinforcements differs greatly from honour guards. Like I said, I don't mean to offend, because I really do appreciate the effort, but going out and making a guide that has more false information than correct information helps no one.
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  3. #3

    Well how 'bout you look at this?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROCOMAN View Post
    I can really appreciate the effort here, and I really don't mean any offense, but please don't make guides on something you know very little about. For instance, both catapults and inferno come at different morale checkpoints, not time checkpoints (140% combined damage remaining for catapults, 80% combined damage remaining for inferno). Reinforcements differs greatly from honour guards. Like I said, I don't mean to offend, because I really do appreciate the effort, but going out and making a guide that has more false information than correct information helps no one.

    I was just following the information on a reliable wiki, and I'm pretty sure its correct.

    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/The_Battle_for_Erebor
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    I was just following the information on a reliable wiki, and I'm pretty sure its correct.

    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/The_Battle_for_Erebor
    LOTRO Wiki is hardly reliable. It's a good start most of the time, but anyone can tell you that catapults and inferno are not on times, considering some groups are getting the trolls down in 2 mins, but are still getting both the catapults and inferno effects, even though the Wiki says they shouldn't even start until 2.5 mins in... Also it says Blood Rage does a damage buff upon taking damage, which is incorrect too.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    139
    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    I was just following the information on a reliable wiki, and I'm pretty sure its correct.
    It's not correct at all, if you're looking into making a video guide on something, you should make sure that the information that you're giving out is in fact correct. It looks like that lotro-wiki post was made by someone who hasn't even been inside the raid.
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  6. #6
    Ok, so where in the world would someone get information on this kind of stuff? Because I definitley couldn't get something like Combined morale from just playing the instance.
    Last edited by Firenoah; Mar 14 2013 at 02:49 PM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    Ok, so where in the world would someone get information on this kind of stuff? Because I definitley couldn't get something like Combined morale from just playing the instance.
    Unfortunately for LOTRO, decent, up-to-date guides are hard to come by. A lot of newer instances won't have guides to them because people don't care/bother to write them, or don't share them. Older instances won't have guides that actually work because the instances might have been changed over the years and thus are no longer relevant, and no one bothers to update them (LOTRO Wiki is pretty notorious for this reason, as many of the guides to instances are simply wrong). No offense to you, but the problem is compounded by people who put out guides or information that is not right (obviously whoever updated the LOTRO Wiki page for BfE didn't know what was going on either).

    In the end, you have to actually run the raids multiple times and pay very close attention to what is going on in order to figure out what is happening, when it is happening (or why), and how to counter it. Sometimes running the instance on a lower level can help as you can see mechanics without having to worry about dying so much or as easily. And of the many mechanics out there, catapults and inferno are two of the easier ones to figure out, since just by looking at morale thresholds you can tell when they come.

    For example, the catapults come when the combined morale of the trolls is at 140% of their starting morale. If the start of the fight is 200% morale, and you are only damaging one troll, when that troll you are attacking reaches 40% (just under half), the catapults will start. If you are damaging both trolls evenly, then it'll start when both trolls are at 70% health (just under 3/4ths).

    An easy way to know when it'll come is to change morale bars to percents, and then just quickly add the two morale percents of the two trolls. If for some reason you aren't damaging them evenly, then let's say one troll is at 80% and the other troll is at 90%, add them together to get 170%. The catapults will not have started. Now let's say one troll is at 50% and the other is 91%, the combined total is 141%, the catapults will not have started yet. But if one is at 49% and the other is at 89%, the combined total is 138%, so the catapults will have started. The inferno follows the same pattern, except the combined total has to be less than 80%.

    I have tried writing guides for many instances, but it seems as soon as I have them finished they just revamp the whole thing (Fornost and Helegrod were the biggest two they changed), not to mention there are tons of instances out there and I don't have the time to go through new ones enough to make sure I have the mechanics down, because I'd rather not release a guide for something than release a guide that is wrong.

    Doing Saruman was incredibly difficult because I found lots of conflicting information on the different phases. Most had the main points down right (phase 3 = make sure you bring your pots), but most either missed what I would consider a crucial detail in at least one phase, or added a detail to a phase that was not actually present For example, a few guides I read mentioned that the elements effect lasted through phases 3-5, but it actually only persists through phase 2, while other guides mentioned that phase 5 had all the mechanics of all phases 1-4 including the potting thing from phase 3, but completely forgot to mention the flying eyeball in phase 5. One guide completely missed the "phase 6" where you just have to DPS Saruman until he flings everyone off the tower...

    But once you have a basic understanding of the fight, you can go in there and take note of more and more things until you know what is going on. Make sure you take notes too. I'd never bash someone for attempting to make a guide for an instance in LOTRO, because it is sorely needed, but it's not something you can do on a whim. I probably ran Saruman 15 times (not all were successful) before I finalized the guide I made for it, and even then when we'd do it we'd sometimes switch it up a bit since there are multiple ways to do it (and a guide is never going to address every single way an instance could be run). Hopefully this has enlightened you a bit so you can be better prepared the next time you make a video guide. Good luck!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    139
    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    Ok, so where in the world would someone get information on this kind of stuff? Because I definitley couldn't get something like Combined morale from just playing the instance.
    Someone would get information from guides very similar to yours, only made by people who have lots of experience with the fight, experiencing and gaining knowledge of the fight from t1 all the way to t2c so that they know the fight like the back of their hand, and can share that information with 100% certainty that they're giving correct information. You can't just read a wiki and do the fight a few times and expect to know the fight enough to make a comprehensive video guide on the fight, it just doesn't work that way.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stever1388 View Post
    Unfortunately for LOTRO, decent, up-to-date guides are hard to come by. A lot of newer instances won't have guides to them because people don't care/bother to write them, or don't share them. Older instances won't have guides that actually work because the instances might have been changed over the years and thus are no longer relevant, and no one bothers to update them (LOTRO Wiki is pretty notorious for this reason, as many of the guides to instances are simply wrong). No offense to you, but the problem is compounded by people who put out guides or information that is not right (obviously whoever updated the LOTRO Wiki page for BfE didn't know what was going on either).

    In the end, you have to actually run the raids multiple times and pay very close attention to what is going on in order to figure out what is happening, when it is happening (or why), and how to counter it. Sometimes running the instance on a lower level can help as you can see mechanics without having to worry about dying so much or as easily. And of the many mechanics out there, catapults and inferno are two of the easier ones to figure out, since just by looking at morale thresholds you can tell when they come.

    For example, the catapults come when the combined morale of the trolls is at 140% of their starting morale. If the start of the fight is 200% morale, and you are only damaging one troll, when that troll you are attacking reaches 40% (just under half), the catapults will start. If you are damaging both trolls evenly, then it'll start when both trolls are at 70% health (just under 3/4ths).

    An easy way to know when it'll come is to change morale bars to percents, and then just quickly add the two morale percents of the two trolls. If for some reason you aren't damaging them evenly, then let's say one troll is at 80% and the other troll is at 90%, add them together to get 170%. The catapults will not have started. Now let's say one troll is at 50% and the other is 91%, the combined total is 141%, the catapults will not have started yet. But if one is at 49% and the other is at 89%, the combined total is 138%, so the catapults will have started. The inferno follows the same pattern, except the combined total has to be less than 80%.

    I have tried writing guides for many instances, but it seems as soon as I have them finished they just revamp the whole thing (Fornost and Helegrod were the biggest two they changed), not to mention there are tons of instances out there and I don't have the time to go through new ones enough to make sure I have the mechanics down, because I'd rather not release a guide for something than release a guide that is wrong.

    Doing Saruman was incredibly difficult because I found lots of conflicting information on the different phases. Most had the main points down right (phase 3 = make sure you bring your pots), but most either missed what I would consider a crucial detail in at least one phase, or added a detail to a phase that was not actually present For example, a few guides I read mentioned that the elements effect lasted through phases 3-5, but it actually only persists through phase 2, while other guides mentioned that phase 5 had all the mechanics of all phases 1-4 including the potting thing from phase 3, but completely forgot to mention the flying eyeball in phase 5. One guide completely missed the "phase 6" where you just have to DPS Saruman until he flings everyone off the tower...

    But once you have a basic understanding of the fight, you can go in there and take note of more and more things until you know what is going on. Make sure you take notes too. I'd never bash someone for attempting to make a guide for an instance in LOTRO, because it is sorely needed, but it's not something you can do on a whim. I probably ran Saruman 15 times (not all were successful) before I finalized the guide I made for it, and even then when we'd do it we'd sometimes switch it up a bit since there are multiple ways to do it (and a guide is never going to address every single way an instance could be run). Hopefully this has enlightened you a bit so you can be better prepared the next time you make a video guide. Good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by ROCOMAN View Post
    Someone would get information from guides very similar to yours, only made by people who have lots of experience with the fight, experiencing and gaining knowledge of the fight from t1 all the way to t2c so that they know the fight like the back of their hand, and can share that information with 100% certainty that they're giving correct information. You can't just read a wiki and do the fight a few times and expect to know the fight enough to make a comprehensive video guide on the fight, it just doesn't work that way.
    Ok, ok for the love of lotro, I will try to re-make this video one last time.
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  10. #10
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    Feb 2011
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    139
    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    Ok, ok for the love of lotro, I will try to re-make this video one last time.
    Why not take the video down and just let it go? You don't know all the intricacies of the fight, and there's a lot to know that it's really hard for you to make a good guide for this instance. You can't honestly title the video "The Battle for Erebor Instance Guide" if you only vaguely go over both of the easiest mechanics that every single PuG group goes into with a 99% success rate. Try going into the fight with different flags active and see how they play out. A good and honest guide will go over every single mechanic of the fight, and how they play into each other, which will only come with experience with higher tiers of the fight. Putting out minimal effort into learning a fight then making a "video guide" for it only makes you look bad, so I really don't see why you're bothering with this guide when you know next to nothing about the fight. Spend a few days actually going into the fight and learning it before you make your next guide, please.

    PS: I'm sorry that it seems like I'm taking jabs it you, I'm just trying to give honest, constructive feedback.
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75

    RE: Erebor Re-do

    You retreated because you hit the enter key on your keyboard. It's a common mishap that usually happens because people try get to the chat window - they figure that since they can't use their skills they might as well chat.

    As for the video, I don't think you need to take it down. Just don't call it a guide. Rename it to something like LOTRO - the Battle of Erebor T1 (PUG). I think the video has value - especially in terms of showing what NOT to do For example:

    - Tanks need to separate and approach the trolls from a 45 or 90 degree angle on the left and right before engaging at the start (don't just run straight in). The tanks should not engage the trolls in melee when they are close together; they should use ranged aggro skills at the start to separate the trolls. Note that a guardian will actually need to hit the troll so a minstrel's song of aid can help a lot here to get in a shield bash (play it before the fight starts).

    - Healers should not put any heals on the tanks before the fight starts (it can mess with the aggro). DPS should stay away from the trolls until they are separated and the tanks have aggro.

    - Tanks should position the trolls opposite each other with their backs to the wall on the left and right sides. Healers should position themselves in the middle between the two trolls.

    - Don't stand in the orange circles or close to the edge of the circles. Getting stunned prevents you from healing and it may kill you. Or if you are DPS it slows down the DPS.

    If you want to help people then these are all things that should have been mentioned in your video. It's understandable that since you likely don't play a tank character that you wouldn't know about what the tank should do. That is what people mean when they say that you really aren't qualified to be giving RAID level advice.

    So my advice is to use this as a learning opportunity and just have fun with the video. Laugh at yourself for being a noobcake and getting yourself killed by the catapult. Laugh at the champ for running in before the trolls were separated and getting himself killed. If you explain what you did wrong and what you did right people will respect your effort and it will be more valuable to the community as a whole and who knows, it might even offer some entertainment.

    Lastly, you do know that as long as terms haven't been chosen you can walk all around the trolls and they will not aggro. So if you want to explain things about the fight, such as positioning, you can safely do this before the fight starts! You could even start the instance by yourself and walk in and narrate the whole fight -- as long as you don't choose terms the trolls will not activate.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by ShameOnYou; Mar 14 2013 at 06:48 PM.

  12. #12

    Thumbs up

    I remember doing something similar to that poor champ; difference was that we had 4 healing RKs so I ended up fervour tanking the troll I aggroed XD
    Even if inaccurate, the video is still pretty entertaining. +rep4effort
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  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firenoah View Post
    Ok, so where in the world would someone get information on this kind of stuff? Because I definitley couldn't get something like Combined morale from just playing the instance.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...or-Walkthrough

    ~Dadi

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2

    Angry

    Let the boy make his video and call it anything he wants.

 

 

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