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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Geosphaera View Post
    Your 2h has extra critical rating on DB, and do you have the Man-Sword-Bonus damage equipped? Third result of the 2h seems to be highly biased, with a huge outlier in Devastating Blows. There's a lot of differences between the 3 runs in between each too. I like that you've put numbers to the words, but there's a lot of variables you are taking with you in recording these numbers, including amount of attacks.

    I'd say we're gonna need more runs of this length to actually compare 2h with 1h fairly, although it will be obvious that 2h deal more damage, the true difference cannot be stated from n=3 with 2 groups. Thanks for these numbers though, they are highly interesting!
    I do not have the racial sword bonus equipped (which I forgot about so thanks) and I only used pressing attack to avoid skewing the DB numbers.

    As for outliers, they can't really be helped they can only be drawn back to the middle by repeated attempts. If you want to undertake that I'm all for it. Just thought I'd throw out some info in my spare time.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geosphaera View Post
    Your 2h has extra critical rating on DB, and do you have the Man-Sword-Bonus damage equipped? Third result of the 2h seems to be highly biased, with a huge outlier in Devastating Blows. There's a lot of differences between the 3 runs in between each too. I like that you've put numbers to the words, but there's a lot of variables you are taking with you in recording these numbers, including amount of attacks.

    I'd say we're gonna need more runs of this length to actually compare 2h with 1h fairly, although it will be obvious that 2h deal more damage, the true difference cannot be stated from n=3 with 2 groups. Thanks for these numbers though, they are highly interesting!
    I appreciate the poster stepping up and giving data (that was 30 minutes of time spent instead of game playing, which was very nice). I'm not sure the DB crit difference matters much. If they did 4 DB a minute (didn't have renewed voice, presumably did use sure strike) they'd do 20 DB attempts. The difference might be an extra crit in that time, probably not even that. That said, the 2-H did have over 1% higher crits and over 1% higher Dev crits, which may contribute a few percent of the difference. A bigger variable is probably the number of times war cry was put up (if it was). The number and distribution of DB crits per run will vary quite a bit, so the percentage of time in a 5 minute run that War Cry is up will likewise vary quite a bit. n.b. I'd expect renewed voice would be a bigger gaining single LtC trait as it gives you ~1/3 more crit chains. When I HOH I usually trait Renewed Voice and Expert Attacks together for the extra crits/defeat responses.

    That said, ~25% does agree with what I remember from the distant past when somebody posted parses. So peoples choice is pretty clear. If you do 500 DPS in HOH and think the difference between that and 375 DPS is significant and outweighs the pretty large shield benefits for survivability and a very modest healing enhancement, you know what to do. For raids where there are DPS toons knocking down over 3000 DPS, I'm still inclined to say not much benefit of the incremental DPS, at least when I'm in HOH. But for other content, the 2-H wins. My best answer at the moment is to build both. If nothing else, being able to switch on the fly to S&B on demand is a HUGE win when you suddenly find yourself getting whaled on, even if you start all fights swinging your 2-H. And for the (rare) fights where you spend a fair bit of time outside of melee range, the shield is clearly pure win.

  3. #103
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    [QUOTE=DelgonTheWise;6722694 When I HOH I usually trait Renewed Voice and Expert Attacks together for the extra crits/defeat responses.
    [/QUOTE]

    I beg to differ because Tactical Prowess+Defiance would help your group much more and the LoM bonus also are great for teamwork- instant marks changes FTW.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    I beg to differ because Tactical Prowess+Defiance would help your group much more and the LoM bonus also are great for teamwork- instant marks changes FTW.
    Yes, there are tradeoffs. Lots of people do Saruman the way you say for example. But it is lots easier to keep up war cry places where you aren't getting defeat events from deaths if you do the pair of LtC traits mentioned. And in the context of the parse, expert attacks was used, and my real point was that if you pick renewed voice is a bigger gain there...

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    I beg to differ because Tactical Prowess+Defiance would help your group much more and the LoM bonus also are great for teamwork- instant marks changes FTW.
    Defiance doesn't help your group at all unless A) you're actually needing to use Last Stand, and B) are using In Harm's Way with it. Personally I try to use IHW without Last Stand, and I've gotten good at taking peoples' damage without dying myself, so the extended time on Last Stand doesn't help me much.

    I prefer to trait Renewed Voice and either Tactical Prowess or whatever the war banner trait is. I very rarely need to switch marks around these days, so I don't really care about the 2Y bonus. (I don't trait Expert Attacks because I'm so close to crit cap without it that it's a wasted slot.)
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Defiance doesn't help your group at all unless A) you're actually needing to use Last Stand, and B) are using In Harm's Way with it. Personally I try to use IHW without Last Stand, and I've gotten good at taking peoples' damage without dying myself, so the extended time on Last Stand doesn't help me much.
    I really see Defiance as a trait that's generally a sign that you are planning on failing.

    Granted, there are some fights (like OD Ivar) where it is extremely handy, but those are few.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I really see Defiance as a trait that's generally a sign that you are planning on failing.

    Granted, there are some fights (like OD Ivar) where it is extremely handy, but those are few.
    Do you feel similarly about Blood of Numenor?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emachine View Post
    Do you feel similarly about Blood of Numenor?
    I do. That doesn't stop me from traiting it though, because Defiance usually indicates the whole group is going to fail, whereas BoN assumes one or two people in your group will fail. I always assume there's going to be a weak link.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    That said, ~25% does agree with what I remember from the distant past when somebody posted parses. So peoples choice is pretty clear. If you do 500 DPS in HOH and think the difference between that and 375 DPS is significant and outweighs the pretty large shield benefits for survivability and a very modest healing enhancement, you know what to do.
    The only way a shield is providing "pretty large" benefits is if you're being hit. And if you're only doing 375 DPS and being hit, the group has bigger problems than a dead Captain.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    The only way a shield is providing "pretty large" benefits is if you're being hit. And if you're only doing 375 DPS and being hit, the group has bigger problems than a dead Captain.
    I have gotten aggro in HOH. The 375 DPS (usually more like 600 for me, varies, but I currently use a 2-H exclusively, just want to build a 1-H) is often paired with as much as 2000 HPS or more if I'm doing RC/VS spam. And yes, if the tank drops dead, they sometimes do come for me :/

    That said, do you really never die in raids(or only die to tactical effects?) My goal is to be the last one standing if possible, and to be tough enough to take some hits while trying to recover a failing fight... Toughness also means you need less healing. Not saying 1-H a clear win -- look at my posts in this thread, I often think a 2-H is the way to go. I just don't think the DPS delta is all that significant though...
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Mar 23 2013 at 01:21 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I have gotten aggro in HOH. The 375 DPS (usually more like 600 for me, varies, but I currently use a 2-H exclusively, just want to build a 1-H) is often paired with 2000 HPS or more if I'm doing RC/VS spam. And yes, if the tank drops dead, they sometimes do come for me :/
    Same here. Getting aggro can be quite easy especially when you got a great deal of adds (which many 6-man instances feature, anyway). There's also some random damage of bosses which can be blocked by a shield. Doing a RC + VS combo can easily net you the aggro of 4/6 enemies and since we absolutely cannot save ourselves, staying alive longer is a great benefit to group until the tank or DPS can pick up the aggro. Don't forget, if the tank gets stunned and not a lot of DPS has been done, you're likely #2 on the list and getting hit for 3k can quickly whittle you down.

    As I said, I love the survivability that my shield offers and for me it outweights the little DPS I can add to a group. The extra stats/healing on a shield is just a nice extra benefit for me.
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  12. #112
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    You can block the distributed damage in BfE. But i swear there's something screwy with that particular mechanic.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    You can block the distributed damage in BfE. But i swear there's something screwy with that particular mechanic.
    You mean outside of people being one-shot while sitting in the middle of a group that doesn't take damage at all?
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    You mean outside of people being one-shot while sitting in the middle of a group that doesn't take damage at all?
    Yeah, that kinda screwy. My current hypothesis is that if someone bpe's the distributed, everyone else gets their share of the damage. But I'm just totally guessing there, more observations would be welcome.
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  15. #115
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    Here are some more numbers like I promised. The numbers may be slightly higher than the ones I posted earlier because I've got a few upgrades since then and had some scrolls on from an earlier instance, but I think they should serve the purpose of at least showing a longer sense of consistency for those who felt my initial list was too short. These melee attacks were done in the exact same context as my earlier ones.

    1,626 - 883 - 2,164 - 843 - 757 - 1,091 - 2,164 - 1,180 - 729 - 1,497 - 2,289 - 1,021 - 865 - 1,457 - 809 - 1,940 - 1,709
    1,069 -2,237 - 1,553 - 827 - 823 - 1,145 - 930 - 1,842 - 824 - 1,089 - 895 - 832 - 800 - 776 - 971 - 1, 550 - 1,693 - 1, 550 - 815 - 4,615 - 1,522 - 956 - 1,074 - 802 - 2,153 - 1,140 - 1,140 - 1,045 - 1,617 - 1,611 - 1,729 - 1,004 - 974 - 1,043 - 1,084 - 993 - 1,029 - 807 - 1,477 - 951 -983 - 834 - 1,656 - 2,172 - 3,711 - 685 - 771 - 729 - 1,485 - 983 - 1,485 - 4,355 - 1, 485 - 711 -1006 - 1,640 - 2,312 - 3,684 - 1,485 - 710 - 776 - 2,133 - 899 -822 - 1,621 - 918 - 945 - 1,231 - 2,432 - 1,747 - 1,621 - 736 - 849 - 887 - 1034 - 1,537 - 953 - 1,382 - 4,197 - 719 - 2,836 - 1,470 - 809 - 728 - 792 - 1,292

    This is around 100 of my melee attacks written down as they appear in my combat log. Hopefully this is long enough to satisfy my critics. If not, I'm sorry but I don't think I have it in me to type any more numbers. It's giving me a headache

    After a friend of mine no longer needs help with relics, I will start working on a new set of relics to put into my one-handed weapon and I will then post the results of that. It won't be a perfect comparison by no means, but hopefully it can serve as some measure for others to judge.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 24 2013 at 10:42 AM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post

    That said, do you really never die in raids(or only die to tactical effects?) My goal is to be the last one standing if possible, and to be tough enough to take some hits while trying to recover a failing fight... Toughness also means you need less healing. Not saying 1-H a clear win -- look at my posts in this thread, I often think a 2-H is the way to go. I just don't think the DPS delta is all that significant though...

    I have come to the conclusion you are just playing devil's advocate here. You say you haven't built a 1-handed weapon, you "often think 2-H is the way to go" - and you even said the extra damage helps in solo, 3 man and 6 man content (which was the context of the OP). Yet - for some reason I can't understand - you turn around and say things like you don't think the DPS it gives is really all that significant. I think if you really believed that way you would be using a shield for the extra block - which you go out of your way to praise in this thread. I don't get why you feel the need to try and diminish the advantages a two-handed weapon brings, especially since you often use one yourself because you think it helps by your own words.

    Why can't we just admit there are significant advantages to using either.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 24 2013 at 10:39 AM.

  17. #117
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    Why make a choice when you can have both? It really depends on your game-style. I use both. Have a 2-handed, and a one-handed + shield. Different situations call for different actions i think, so i always keep both at hand

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by FroukjeMarije View Post
    Why make a choice when you can have both? It really depends on your game-style. I use both. Have a 2-handed, and a one-handed + shield. Different situations call for different actions i think, so i always keep both at hand
    That's definitely the best solution, I can't argue that.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Here are some more numbers like I promised. The numbers may be slightly higher than the ones I posted earlier because I've got a few upgrades since then and had some scrolls on from an earlier instance, but I think they should serve the purpose of at least showing a longer sense of consistency for those who felt my initial list was too short. These melee attacks were done in the exact same context as my earlier ones.

    1,626 - 883 - 2,164 - 843 - 757 - 1,091 - 2,164 - 1,180 - 729 - 1,497 - 2,289 - 1,021 - 865 - 1,457 - 809 - 1,940 - 1,709
    1,069 -2,237 - 1,553 - 827 - 823 - 1,145 - 930 - 1,842 - 824 - 1,089 - 895 - 832 - 800 - 776 - 971 - 1, 550 - 1,693 - 1, 550 - 815 - 4,615 - 1,522 - 956 - 1,074 - 802 - 2,153 - 1,140 - 1,140 - 1,045 - 1,617 - 1,611 - 1,729 - 1,004 - 974 - 1,043 - 1,084 - 993 - 1,029 - 807 - 1,477 - 951 -983 - 834 - 1,656 - 2,172 - 3,711 - 685 - 771 - 729 - 1,485 - 983 - 1,485 - 4,355 - 1, 485 - 711 -1006 - 1,640 - 2,312 - 3,684 - 1,485 - 710 - 776 - 2,133 - 899 -822 - 1,621 - 918 - 945 - 1,231 - 2,432 - 1,747 - 1,621 - 736 - 849 - 887 - 1034 - 1,537 - 953 - 1,382 - 4,197 - 719 - 2,836 - 1,470 - 809 - 728 - 792 - 1,292

    This is around 100 of my melee attacks written down as they appear in my combat log. Hopefully this is long enough to satisfy my critics. If not, I'm sorry but I don't think I have it in me to type any more numbers. It's giving me a headache
    A copy and paste of the combat log would have been better.

    Is this just autoattacks, autoattacks + skills, or just skills?

    What is the weapon you used? (Screenshot is best here)

    What are your stats? (Again, screenshot is best here)

    What buffs are you using?

    Without answering the above questions, this data is garbage.

    Edit:
    If you want an example of what good data looks like, check out emachine's post.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 24 2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    A copy and paste of the combat log would have been better.

    Is this just autoattacks, autoattacks + skills, or just skills?

    What is the weapon you used? (Screenshot is best here)

    What are your stats? (Again, screenshot is best here)

    What buffs are you using?

    Without answering the above questions, this data is garbage.

    Edit:
    If you want an example of what good data looks like, check out emachine's post.
    No what is garbage is me taking the time to write out the damage I do and you just insult it ^^

    That's my typical damage output when I do 3 man content from my melee skills. I think the data is fine for what I'm wanting to accomplish with it - and I do not need to go into every single detail of what I did for people to get a decent idea of the kind of damage HoH Captains do with a two-handed weapon. This isn't rocket science after-all, and I'm not trying to be exact here. Just offer people a consistent comparison of my typical melee rotations when using either or. Once I get the relics into my one-handed weapon so as to make it a generally fair comparison (at least in my opinion) I'll be posting the numbers it does in the same setting so others can draw their conclusions.

    If you think they are flawed experiments Almagnus simply ignore them. You have made your opinions about my tests well known don't worry.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 24 2013 at 07:11 PM.

  21. #121
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    i'm trying to think of any instance or raid where HoH is warranted in the current end game and i honestly can't think of any other than perhaps the Ettenmoors in a RvR situation.

    in my experience a MoW build outheals an HoH build, while still providing a healthy amount of dps (~2k or so typically). that's why i wouldn't even bother with a 1 hander.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souku View Post
    i'm trying to think of any instance or raid where HoH is warranted in the current end game and i honestly can't think of any other than perhaps the Ettenmoors in a RvR situation.

    in my experience a MoW build outheals an HoH build, while still providing a healthy amount of dps (~2k or so typically). that's why i wouldn't even bother with a 1 hander.
    You should come over to my server and take a look at the GLFF. People are specifically asking for HoH Captains for the new raids all the time - so there is obviously demand for them.

    I have a real hard time imagining another build of Captain being a more effective healer than the Hands of Healing Captain right now due to the changes in Valiant Strike. That skill is very impressive right now. But I do agree with you that generally a healthy combination of heals and dps is more valuable to a Captain than heals and added block, though there are situations I could see a shield being of a lot of use - especially if the tank you are running with struggles at controlling large numbers of adds - or simply lacks the class mechanics to be able to do so.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 24 2013 at 07:00 PM.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    You should come over to my server and take a look at the GLFF. People are specifically asking for HoH Captains for the new raids all the time - so there is obviously demand for them.
    yeah i see it on my server as well but i don't understand it.
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  24. #124
    Hey Jeremi, I'm not picking and appreciate the time you took to copy down all those numbers.

    I think the issue arises in that there's no timestamp to tell how much damage you did per second. Most of our skills hit decently hard but since other classes can do two hits in the time it takes us to do one, or a cappy 1 hander can swing 1.2 times (made up number) in the time a 2h can swing it's difficult to evaluate raw numbers.

    Just to establish a point: If a fight lasts 30 seconds and a champ does 3k dps while a cappy does 700dps the champ did 90,000 damage while the cappy did 21,000. Not that that's inconsequential but that dps class just quadrupled our numbers in that fight.

    During my parses with a third hander we can see that my max output was around 380 dps. With my 2nd age with nice relics it went up about 100 dps if I recall.

    Lets say my max HoH output is around 500 dps (I know other cappies can probably do better but I suck at dps). If that were to drop to 375 I'd lose 3,750 during that 30 second fight. It would take a Hunter or champ just over a second to make that up. I think that's where people are saying that 1h vs 2h dps doesn't matter.

    That said there's only really two cappy shields right now. One from a skirmish that people on my server barely run since the instance cl and another one that takes a small miracle to drop. If you're lucky enough to have the gold one then good on you and put it to use but if you don't have a decent shield (as I don't) it makes it difficult to even contemplate s&b.

    Side note: 100% agreed on the VS changes Jeremi - That skill went from meh to a cappy powerhouse (can't believe the range only used to be a few meters). MoW has/had it's place in healing but imo has pretty much fallen behind as a way to heal.
    Last edited by Emachine; Mar 24 2013 at 07:28 PM.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Souku View Post
    yeah i see it on my server as well but i don't understand it.
    If you take a hoh captain instead of a mini you have a fully healed 6man with 4 dps instead of 3 and half. It's just faster to take a captain instead of a mini.

    HoH is a lot better. I'm usually at 2.5k hps...if I'm slacking. 3k+ is normal and 5k if there are pets.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 24 2013 at 08:17 PM.
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