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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curulanthir View Post
    Thank you, Jeremi for giving the theories an actual test. I guess we all very eagerly await the results.

    I, for one, still do not get the crit argument for two-handers clearly. Of, course, the damage dealt by the each crit will be more amplified in actual numbers than it would be with a one-hander. On the other hand, should the one-hander not manage to achive more crits during the same time due to the faster attack speed?
    Tests without combat analysis (and ones that are short) are not very significant in terms of comparing between alternatives. IMHO of course.

    I don't know of any difference of crits between a 1-H and a 2-H other than that represented by their innate DPS difference, so I'd assume it is just proportional to that difference. I'm a bit murky on the interaction of attack speed based on 1-H vs 2-H choice (which I THINK only affects auto attack rate, though I'm happy to be corrected) and attack duration (which affects animation time, and hence the rate at which you can use skills). Happy to see a good reference if someone has one.

    I'm pondering making a second age 1-H, but also pondering waiting for a first age to make one. I have plenty of skirmish currency, but buying the empowerment/delving scrolls and the crystals to finalize a weapon still irks me somewhat.

    BTW, one real benefit for my way of thinking of 1-H vs 2-H is no RNG dependency in weapon outcome. My current 2-H weapon has Might/Vit/Crit, which is awesome. But it could just have well have been Power/Agi/ICPR. I'd be sad if I got my first age and it got crummy passives, as I don't think I'll get that many tries at it. A small difference in actual effectiveness, mind you, but I'd still not be pleased every time I looked at it...

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Tests without combat analysis (and ones that are short) are not very significant in terms of comparing between alternatives. IMHO of course.
    Also, longer duration tests get rid of the streaky RNG issues that appears in shorter tests, and Combat Analysis will eliminate confirmation bias because it is impartial, while the author may not be.

    Edit:
    And also showing a screenshot of your stats (expanded) with gear detail also help others to verify results.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 21 2013 at 09:14 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Also, longer duration tests get rid of the streaky RNG issues that appears in shorter tests, and Combat Analysis will eliminate confirmation bias because it is impartial, while the author may not be.
    Would you rather me post an entire page of numbers then if this is too short for you and Delgon? Would that be more appropriate for you? Because they are all going to look roughly about the same. My damage is not "streaky" on my Captain, and those numbers I posted are the steady result of what happens when I swing my sword.

    How about this - you let me know how many pages of numbers I need to copy from my combat log and I'll go do it.

  4. #79
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    Instead of criticizing a fellow Captain's CombatAnalisys parse as too short, why nor produce your own and post here to add fuel to the flaming war on course?

    I am curious about real numbers comparing FA 1h and FA 2h. I was told before that FA 1h received a much welcome boost to DPS, while FA 2h DPS is (again) underwhelming.

    IMHO: we use 2h out of tradition and style. The added healing and avoidances a shield gives more than compensate for the supposed loss of damage contribution a captain gives. 10% of little is even less significant.

    On the other hand it was stated in the revamp tread that Captains want to tank in a unique way, a view that i approved. So lets ask for better tanking capabilities while swing our big fat mean Halberds around.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Would you rather me post an entire page of numbers then if this is too short for you and Delgon? Would that be more appropriate for you? Because they are all going to look roughly about the same. My damage is not "streaky" on my Captain, and those numbers I posted are the steady result of what happens when I swing my sword.

    How about this - you let me know how many pages of numbers I need to copy from my combat log and I'll go do it.
    Stick it in an Excel spreadsheet (or on Google Docs) and link that - that also helps with the analysis.

    Edit:
    And parse for a solid 15 minutes while you're at it.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Stick it in an Excel spreadsheet (or on Google Docs) and link that - that also helps with the analysis.

    Edit:
    And parse for a solid 15 minutes while you're at it.
    Numbers are numbers, why does it matter where I stick them? I've never used spreadsheets. But if 15 minutes is for some reason the more acceptable threshold for you - fine, I will go clear out some random 3 man and post you the whole of my combat log. Then maybe you will finally deem these numbers worthy and I can avoid this strange criticism that they are somehow inaccurate because it's too short, which I don't understand but what ever makes you happy.

    I'll be back in a bit...

  7. #82
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    Longer parses even out the effects of the RNG inherent to the system. With short parses, randomly getting, or not getting, crits can skew the numbers unreliably. As parses get longer, the number of crits tends towards your displayed crit %.

    Extreme example: I once oneshot an entire aurochs herd on horseback. My DPS in that fight was 66000. That number is not worth anything.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Numbers are numbers, why does it matter where I stick them? I've never used spreadsheets. But if 15 minutes is for some reason the more acceptable threshold for you - fine, I will go clear out some random 3 man and post you the whole of my combat log. Then maybe you will finally deem these numbers worthy and I can avoid this strange criticism that they are somehow inaccurate because it's too short, which I don't understand but what ever makes you happy.

    I'll be back in a bit...
    That's not a good test because there's too many breaks, and the mobs can vary both in difficulty and level.

    This is why we use training dummies, and targets we can beat on for long durations.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    That's not a good test because there's too many breaks, and the mobs can vary both in difficulty and level.

    This is why we use training dummies, and targets we can beat on for long durations.
    The monsters are all the same, and the numbers will all be roughly the same as well. But it doesn't matter, I'm going to post you a gazillion numbers later so don't worry about it.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Instead of criticizing a fellow Captain's CombatAnalisys parse as too short, why nor produce your own and post here to add fuel to the flaming war on course?

    I am curious about real numbers comparing FA 1h and FA 2h. I was told before that FA 1h received a much welcome boost to DPS, while FA 2h DPS is (again) underwhelming.

    IMHO: we use 2h out of tradition and style. The added healing and avoidances a shield gives more than compensate for the supposed loss of damage contribution a captain gives. 10% of little is even less significant.

    On the other hand it was stated in the revamp tread that Captains want to tank in a unique way, a view that i approved. So lets ask for better tanking capabilities while swing our big fat mean Halberds around.
    I had a response written up but the forums eated it.

    Turns out that 1H weapons have an attack speed of 1.9 (1 attack takes 1.9 seconds) while 2H weapons have an attack speed of 2.5. This can be figured out by running the following equation:

    attack speed = (low value + high vaule)/(2 * DPS rating)

    Going by the DPS rating, the 1H is only 90% of the 2H.

    If you look at the actual values, the 2H is around 70ish% or so (number is from memory, I'll write it up again once I have time). However, given that a fair chunk of captain DPS comes from auto attacks (like around 50% or so, if memory serves), it ends up being a wash. In the time it takes for a 2H to make 4 attacks, the 1H will have done 5, with a bit of room to spare, so while the 2H will crit harder, the 1H will have more crits.

    Also, because the stats on the shield, your physical mastery rating will (more than likely) go up with a shield, so you actually end up with a higher melee offence percentage with the shield than without one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    The monsters are all the same, and the numbers will all be roughly the same as well. But it doesn't matter, I'm going to post you a gazillion numbers later so don't worry about it.
    No, you're missing what we're trying to get you to do:

    Do the testing rigorous enough, and organize the results in such a way that it's not white noise.

    But at the moment, you're clearly motivated by spite, so I might as well be screaming in the wind.....
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 21 2013 at 11:35 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post


    No, you're missing what we're trying to get you to do:

    Do the testing rigorous enough, and organize the results in such a way that it's not white noise.

    But at the moment, you're clearly motivated by spite, so I might as well be screaming in the wind.....
    I'm not being spiteful Almagnus I promise. When I'm spiteful I am a lot less polite than this So if I come across that way you are just misreading me. All I'm trying to do is meet up to your standards so you will stop dismissing my numbers as irrelevant. That's all. A little frustrated perhaps, but not spiteful.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 21 2013 at 11:45 AM.

  12. #87
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    I don't see why this discussion needs to be so technical.

    The best S&B combo in the game, if you're lucky enough to get it, will net you 1% more healing and 4 WoC pulses. Just decide if this is worth it. If your playstyle puts your typical 1h DPS at 300, and a 2h bumps it up to 400, you may not find it worthwhile to go 2h. If your typical 2h DPS is 1200 and a 1h would drop it to 900, it may be beneficial to stay 2h. There doesn't need to be a feud about it. It's going to be entirely subjective.

    As Captains, we should be extra vigilant about letting people play the way they want. It seems like we're the ones constantly barraged by people who don't know what they're talking about telling us how to trait and play our class. It's finally getting to the point where people are wising up and not asking for specific trait lines, but there are still plenty of morons out there who will not even notice how you saved two wipes with SotD and then make fun of you for not slotting Oathbreakers in a T1 FtLM faceroll.
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  13. #88
    The relationship between 1 hand damage strikes and 2 hand damage strikes is a constant. As long as you compare an unaltered 3rd age 1H to the same 2h the difference will be constant. So even though crit plays a role the % difference is a constant regardless of how often you crit. 2handers do have bonuses but so does the shield, so that gets balanced out of the test, so long as you remember to equip it.

    If you want to compare which one does more damage compare two crits of the same type, compare one AA crit with a 1h to one AA crit with a 2h, skills work just the same. The Crits don't use an RNG, they always take effect on the max damage on the weapon. So if your weapon does 1-5 damage the crit will apply to the 5 only.
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  14. #89
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    Look, I threw out junk information saying "10% or more" was the difference between 1H and 2H. While I tried to correct it later on in thread, but it apparently didn't take.

    For autoattack DPS, taking into account hit magnitude and speed both, a 1H is 90% as much DPS as a 2H, and a 2H is therefore 11.1% more DPS than a 1H. For autoattacks. Thats where I got 10% or more from. But the disparity rises for skills, because skills have cooldowns. You can't spam Devastating Blow really any faster with a 1H than with a 2H, so the damage disparity for DB, SL, BoE, etc is something like 0.7*2H = 1H as Almagnus pointed out I think. Something like that. Just take an Un-IDd sword 1H and compare to 2H of the same age and level. Double-check for me as I'm not in game.

    Now, while you can't really fit more DBs, SLs, and BoEs into a 1H rotation than a 2H (you can do as many as possible with 2H, it's just that you are too crunched to do really many heals), you can fit other things. Those other things may be heals, or they may be small spammable attacks like Def. Strike that have basically autoattack strength.

    Put it all together, and the difference is somewhere between 0.9*2H = 1H and 0.7*2H = 1H. Parses would be best, but realize in real situations we heal too.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 21 2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    The relationship between 1 hand damage strikes and 2 hand damage strikes is a constant. As long as you compare an unaltered 3rd age 1H to the same 2h the difference will be constant. So even though crit plays a role the % difference is a constant regardless of how often you crit. 2handers do have bonuses but so does the shield, so that gets balanced out of the test, so long as you remember to equip it.

    If you want to compare which one does more damage compare two crits of the same type, compare one AA crit with a 1h to one AA crit with a 2h, skills work just the same. The Crits don't use an RNG, they always take effect on the max damage on the weapon. So if your weapon does 1-5 damage the crit will apply to the 5 only.
    I'm perhaps confused as to your point above. I'm generally interested in DPS rather than absolute magnitudes of individual attacks. Focusing on damage magnitudes as above gives you the "D" part, but without regard to time you don't get the "PS". 1-H weapons will certainly have more auto attacks in a time period. Not clear to me they will have more skill attacks. My understanding is that the faster attack speed of 1-H affects only auto-attacks, not skills animation time, and that animation time is independent of weapon type (1h vs 2h). Can anyone confirm/refute that understanding?

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    My understanding is that the faster attack speed of 1-H affects only auto-attacks, not skills animation time, and that animation time is independent of weapon type (1h vs 2h). Can anyone confirm/refute that understanding?
    Yeah, but only with anecdotes and not with time-stamped parses. I can fit more skills into a 1H rotation than 2H though, which is why I use 1H when red-traited and using command set swap (Doing all the SS's and proccing all the defeat responses and hitting all the heals is really hard with 2H).
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that Captain DPS is *good*. But if you can do 300 more DPS with a 2H than with S&B, that's ~60,000 extra damage over a 3-minute fight. Some people may choose that over 1% more heals, some may not. Everyone should do what fits their play. I remember being really excited when I got the shield from Zogtark way back when, but eventually realized that, while rare and shiny, it made me less effective, personally. I repeated the mistake when I got the Dark Delving shield, and ran around with a turtle-shell sword for a few days before it lost its novelty.
    that 300 is a nice number to throw out but you'll never do an additional 300 dps simply by switching to a 2h while in HoH. I would question those numbers even while traited red.

    And i've said it about a zillion times now... Using a 1h is done for the attack duration, not for the stats. I think virtually everything we do is affected by the quicker AD. I am going to get off inspire, valiant strike, WoC, and rally cry faster than you will with a 2h. Getting 5 actions in while a 2h only gets 3 or 4 is a pretty big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
    My understanding is that the faster attack speed of 1-H affects only auto-attacks, not skills animation time, and that animation time is independent of weapon type (1h vs 2h). Can anyone confirm/refute that understanding?
    Animation stays the same regardless... it'd be difficult for them to speed up and slow down animations. However there is a delay between attacks where your character will basically do nothing or maybe an auto attack while he's waiting for his delay to finish up. You can decrease this delay by getting a lower AD.

    This should be easy to notice... go find a mob that increases your AD by some ridiculous amount (some skirmish LT's), and your character will sit there for EVER before using his next skill. Or roll a champion and see what happens when you have -60% AD
    Last edited by DuneBug; Mar 21 2013 at 01:18 PM.
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  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I'm perhaps confused as to your point above. I'm generally interested in DPS rather than absolute magnitudes of individual attacks. Focusing on damage magnitudes as above gives you the "D" part, but without regard to time you don't get the "PS". 1-H weapons will certainly have more auto attacks in a time period. Not clear to me they will have more skill attacks. My understanding is that the faster attack speed of 1-H affects only auto-attacks, not skills animation time, and that animation time is independent of weapon type (1h vs 2h). Can anyone confirm/refute that understanding?
    I'm a page behind so I was trying to catch up on a lot of stuff people said without quote line by lines.

    The idea behind it is that we only need to know the % dps difference between the two. So by getting a standard damage difference to compare we can then add in the speed to get a % difference on actual dps.

    Basically building in the % dps difference from the weapons themselves rather than parses with independent variables.

    You know I read about attack speed/1h/2h for a few hours yesterday and still don't feel confident enough to answer that.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 21 2013 at 01:35 PM.
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  19. #94
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    The reason Critical hits fit into this debate between a one-handed vs a two-handed weapon is because two-handed weapons have a larger base damage. For example: 40% of 1,000 is a lot more than 40% of 400. That's why I say what I do. I'm not trying to suggest critical attacks worker differently for two-handed weapons. What I'm saying is critical hits will do more damage because they are being multiplied from a larger number. Hopefully this clears that misunderstanding up.

    Also, I feel some people in this thread are trying to have things both ways. Like I said earlier, you can't logically say the extra critical damage from a two-handed weapon is so important to have for a Lead the Charge Captain, then turn around and say it's insignificant and worthless for Hands of Healing Captain. That just doesn't add up to me.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Also, I feel some people in this thread are trying to have things both ways. Like I said earlier, you can't logically say the extra critical damage from a two-handed weapon is so important to have for a Lead the Charge Captain, then turn around and say it's insignificant and worthless for Hands of Healing Captain. That just doesn't add up to me.
    Acutally, yes it does. It's min/maxing.

    Read the Lead the Charge traits and traitline bonuses: It's all about increasing DPS. If you're using DPS traits, doesn't it make sense to go with what improves DPS the most? Thus, LtC => 2H

    Read the Hands of Healing traits and traitline bonuses: It's all about increasing healing. If you're using healing traits, doesn't it make sense to go with what improves healing the most? Thus, HoH => S&B.

    What doesn't make sense is when someone takes a Hands of Healing traiting (or runs around with 1k fate), then claims to tweak for improved DPS. To me, this begs the quesiton: shouldn't you run with a non-capstone build, or go LtC, and then worry about DPS?
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 21 2013 at 05:58 PM.
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  21. #96
    I did a few parses last night on the combat dummy in Snowbourne.

    I was only doing dps, no heals as I would in a normal situation. They were all around 5 min long. I'd usually pot twice each time and be drained at the end of 5 min. In a group/raid situation I'd have eaten food, there'd be defeat events and any number of other buffs.

    As far as buffs the only one I used was Relentless Attacks because it's one we all have access to every time.

    I was traited HoH with Expert Attacks being my only red trait

    From this test it seems that the 1 hander did about 280dps while the 2 hander did 385dps.
    So going to a 1 hander drops your dps by 27% it seems. Of course this is in dps only. Throw in some heals and what-not the margin could shrink since the 1h is a bit faster as you can see by the number of attacks.

    My stats:


    The Weapons


    2h results via Combat Analysis


    1h results via Combat Analysis


    Edit: It's asked down below about the Sword bonus racial trait and the DB crit on the 2-hander, also about War Cry:
    I did not have the Sword bonus equipped, I used pressing attack not DB every time and never used War Cry.
    Last edited by Emachine; Mar 22 2013 at 01:13 PM.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Acutally, yes it does. It's min/maxing.

    Read the Lead the Charge traits and traitline bonuses: It's all about increasing DPS. If you're using DPS traits, doesn't it make sense to go with what improves DPS the most? Thus, LtC => 2H

    Read the Hands of Healing traits and traitline bonuses: It's all about increasing healing. If you're using healing traits, doesn't it make sense to go with what improves healing the most? Thus, HoH => S&B.

    What doesn't make sense is when someone takes a Hands of Healing traiting (or runs around with 1k fate), then claims to tweak for improved DPS. To me, this begs the quesiton: shouldn't you run with a non-capstone build, or go LtC, and then worry about DPS?
    ... well I knew it was only a mater of time before you started talking about how I build my Captain again.

    But I'm not going to be goaded into a personal discussion about how I choose to create my Captain though. It's my character, I pay for my account - and I"ll use the gear and traits I like. So politely and with no disrespect intended I say that's really not any of your concern, and I would prefer you not go to my character sheet and start nitpicking about things you believe I do wrong. Don't worry - if I want any advice from you on how I should gear or trait my Captain I will certainly ask you for it. But as I've said before in the past, If I wanted to concentrate on nothing but healing, I would have rolled a ministrel or something else - not a versatile support class like Captain. As we always have, me and you just see this class in very different lights.

    And what I said earlier was correct in my opinion, and you have failed to change my mind about it. You can't on the one hand tout the importance of using a two-handed weapon for a "red line" captain because the extra damage from critical hits is such a huge benefit - then turn around and say it's insignificant and worthless for another Captain. I think there is some middle ground you (and others) are refusing to recognize here. Your "min/max" defense just didn't do it for me.

    To re-iterate, there are benefits to using a shield as well, and I went over some of them in my very first post. Each Captain should make up their own mind about this and use what ever works best for them. But I wish you (and a few others) would stop dismissing those of us who do use a two-handed weapon as if we are doing something wrong and our damage is something we are foolish to care about. That's what is frustrating me. I really don't like generalities, and you seem to be trying to apply one here in this thread and that's why I chose to confront it again. I just couldn't let that slide.

    I didn't get around to posting more numbers yesterday because I was busy. But don't worry, I will try my best to post you a page full of numbers today so that it can be long enough to suit you.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 22 2013 at 11:46 AM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emachine View Post
    The Weapons


    2h results via Combat Analysis


    1h results via Combat Analysis
    Your 2h has extra critical rating on DB, and do you have the Man-Sword-Bonus damage equipped? Third result of the 2h seems to be highly biased, with a huge outlier in Devastating Blows. There's a lot of differences between the 3 runs in between each too. I like that you've put numbers to the words, but there's a lot of variables you are taking with you in recording these numbers, including amount of attacks.

    I'd say we're gonna need more runs of this length to actually compare 2h with 1h fairly, although it will be obvious that 2h deal more damage, the true difference cannot be stated from n=3 with 2 groups. Thanks for these numbers though, they are highly interesting!
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    Longer parses even out the effects of the RNG inherent to the system. With short parses, randomly getting, or not getting, crits can skew the numbers unreliably. As parses get longer, the number of crits tends towards your displayed crit %.

    Extreme example: I once oneshot an entire aurochs herd on horseback. My DPS in that fight was 66000. That number is not worth anything.
    I understand what you are saying Nakiami but that's not the case in my numbers. Those numbers I posted are steady and consistent and will continue as long as I am swinging my sword and are in the exact same context as the OP out-lined. They weren't cherry picked from a single fight I excelled at somewhere on the landscape. I intend to go clear out a 3-man after I finish my coffee and post the entirety of my combat log to show this.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 22 2013 at 11:14 AM.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I don't see why this discussion needs to be so technical.

    The best S&B combo in the game, if you're lucky enough to get it, will net you 1% more healing and 4 WoC pulses. Just decide if this is worth it. If your playstyle puts your typical 1h DPS at 300, and a 2h bumps it up to 400, you may not find it worthwhile to go 2h. If your typical 2h DPS is 1200 and a 1h would drop it to 900, it may be beneficial to stay 2h. There doesn't need to be a feud about it. It's going to be entirely subjective.

    As Captains, we should be extra vigilant about letting people play the way they want. It seems like we're the ones constantly barraged by people who don't know what they're talking about telling us how to trait and play our class. It's finally getting to the point where people are wising up and not asking for specific trait lines, but there are still plenty of morons out there who will not even notice how you saved two wipes with SotD and then make fun of you for not slotting Oathbreakers in a T1 FtLM faceroll.
    I think this is a really good post right here, and sums it up nicely. And I can so much relate to that last sentence.

 

 
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