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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Captain is a support class. It means buffs( including intercept and offtanking), dps, heal. In that order. Hoh captain is a waste of raid or group space. Let healers do their job, but don't forget to help them time to time So, 2h and a yellow line is a way to go. Imo ofc
    Why would you need to offtank? Shouldn't you just let the tanks do their job, just like you let the healers do theirs?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    In that hypothetical situation? Yes.

    As for reality, you'll have to check to see what you do 1h vs. 2h. I have no idea what your DPS is like.
    Oh Sorry I thought you were giving a real number up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batf1nk View Post
    Why would you need to offtank? Shouldn't you just let the tanks do their job, just like you let the healers do theirs?
    I had the exact same thought.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 19 2013 at 03:28 PM.
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  3. #53
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    S

    With the shift in gear from shields and 2h's to HoH and LtC, by my own personal experiences, I have to ask. Why trait fully into either?

    From my personal experiences in raiding/leading raids, I don't trait fully into either. Rather, I go 4 red and 3 blue. That way, I get the damage I desire and the reduction in power cost. Plus I get the desireable healing that I want.
    This also frees up your Legendary traits to other options. Usually in raids I will trait IDOME, Oathies and Fellow-brother. Best of both worlds for me in this setup. While I don't have numbers to back up its effectiveness (don't use plugins), but it always works for me and I enjoy it.

    Going back to shields vs 2h's. My own preferred 2H. It goes with my usual trait setup. To me, a cappy isn't a cappy unless he's a jack of all trades. This way I still get the dps I desire(over 100% psyhical mastery with 25% crit), while having almost 50% OGH. 1 hander and shield is just something I don't like, but I won't judge other cappies who use it.

    Overall, go with what works best for you. My kin still loves me even though I'm not full healer or full dps

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Even my auto attacks crit for over 1k, so I don't think we hit like "wet bagels" in between our devastates. So we just have a difference in opinion here - and I think it's "significant". And I don't see any problem with my logic. My point was 2-handers do more damage from critical hits than 1-handers do no matter what trait line you invest in as a Captain, and that's true as far as I see it - and that's why I pointed out my devastates - to underline that point. So I don't understand what your analogy about hunters who get excited over "big floaty numbers" has to do with what I was trying to say. You and Delgon seem to think of me as someone who gets overly excited because of big numbers, and that's why I like to use two-handed weapons. It's not, but I'm not sure how I could convince you of that.

    I judge what weapon I should use by how quickly and easily I kill things (not by big floaty numbers) - and the 2-hander wins that argument with me hands down. If you kill things easier with a sword/shield combo, then great - and I'm glad it works for you. But for me it simply didn't.

    So I think you were basically misunderstanding my argument. I was never trying to say Captain dps is on par with hunters or that "big floaty numbers" is what really matters. It isn't I agree. But I think our damage is good enough to where it is worth caring about, even when you are a Hands of Healing Captain IN MY OPINION. If people want to use shields then that is fine, and I see no problem with it. But this constant bashing of HoH Captain damage is unwarranted in my mind, especially considering the amount of healing we can easily dish out while in melee. So to me at least, it's worth caring about. If it isn't for you, Almagnus or Dunebug then fine, I can respect that. But just know not all Hands of Healing Captains feel that way, and their play style has merit as well.
    What we're trying to tell you is this:

    When a lot of us are looking at the DPS of the captain class, we compare it against what the top tier DPS classes can do, and when the average captain is going to produce less than half of their DPS on a good day, a lot of us look at our DPS and realize that it's not something we should really be optimizing, because it's just so bad, so you can't pull all that much out of it.

    So when we're strongly encouraging people to go S&B for HoH, what that means is not that we don't care about the DPS, it's that the DPS is so small (comparatively), that going S&B over 1H isn't going to be as big of a penalty as you are making it out to be. Yes, it loses DPS, but the high might score (which should be well over 2k so OGH is in at least the high 40s) means the autoattacks are going to stay strong, provided you didn't dump the points from the DPS legacy into the other legacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    With the shift in gear from shields and 2h's to HoH and LtC, by my own personal experiences, I have to ask. Why trait fully into either?
    I tend to do **A LOT** of PUGing, and with the PUG raids, I sometimes need to cover for healing, so HoH usually wins there. For six mans, I'd rather get them done with faster since I've ran so many of the instances so many times, which is why I typically run LtC for those.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Interesting. Are the calculations the same, do you know (aka, is 2300 Tactical Mastery still ~1% OH around the 30k mastery range)?
    Did a quick test just now. At 33,671 tactical mastery I added 1220 tactical mastery and my outgoing healing went up by 1.1%
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    What we're trying to tell you is this:

    When a lot of us are looking at the DPS of the captain class, we compare it against what the top tier DPS classes can do, and when the average captain is going to produce less than half of their DPS on a good day, a lot of us look at our DPS and realize that it's not something we should really be optimizing, because it's just so bad, so you can't pull all that much out of it.

    So when we're strongly encouraging people to go S&B for HoH, what that means is not that we don't care about the DPS, it's that the DPS is so small (comparatively), that going S&B over 1H isn't going to be as big of a penalty as you are making it out to be. Yes, it loses DPS, but the high might score (which should be well over 2k so OGH is in at least the high 40s) means the autoattacks are going to stay strong, provided you didn't dump the points from the DPS legacy into the other legacies.
    I think I'm done beating this dead horse Almagnus. We have both stated we aren't going to change each other's mind about this - so I really see no point in continuing. Let's just agree to disagree about this. We are just repeating the exact same things over and over, and it's going no where.

    I have gone out of my way to say I don't believe there is anything wrong with using a shield and if it works for you great. I don't know what else to tell you about this. I have my opinions about what works best, and you have your's, so let's just leave it at that. To each their own. In other words: You have fun with your sword and shield and I'll have fun with my two-hander
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 19 2013 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #57
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    One more post, with numbers. On a recent run, it took us exactly 3 minutes to do the BoE run. I did 450 DPS in HOH.

    Based on that, a small table:
    Boss morale 1700000
    Time 180
    Raid Damage/second 9444.4
    Captain DPS Time % of total damage %change run duration
    0 189.0 0.0 5.003
    300 182.9 3.2 1.614
    450 180.0 4.8 0.000
    600 177.2 6.3 -1.563
    1000 170.1 10.0 -5.503


    Draw your own conclusions, but for me changing up 450 DPS up a bit or down a fair bit adds or subtracts about 3 seconds from a 3 minute run... And yes, I mostly should run BoE T1 in LtC...

  8. #58
    A picked up a FA 1h sword today along with a teal shield from Warg Pens (I like the idea of being a tanky front line healer) and had a bit of fun swapping between my SA 2h and FA 1h + shield for DPS/tanking various stages of the instance. I didn't number crunch the difference in DPS, but while tanking the final boss it was astounding how much tankier I became. On the downside, the 1h sword attacks much faster than the 2h - to the point that when you're buffed with Strength of Will and War-Cry and keep spamming skills, you do tend to run out of power after a while.

    While you likely won't need the extra block chance for larger group content with a dedicated tank, sword + board is definitely handy for smaller content where your heals draw aggro and let you offtank weaker mobs. I think the main benefit of having a shield is the extra survivability, rather than the comparatively small bit of extra healing.
    Last edited by Geno-Max; Mar 20 2013 at 01:19 AM.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Draw your own conclusions, but for me changing up 450 DPS up a bit or down a fair bit adds or subtracts about 3 seconds from a 3 minute run... And yes, I mostly should run BoE T1 in LtC...
    Out of curiosity, can you extend that table up to 3k DPS?
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Out of curiosity, can you extend that table up to 3k DPS?
    Sure, here (regenerated it, hadn't saved):

    Actual run:
    Boss DPS 1700000.00
    Time 180.00
    Team DPS 9444.44
    Capt DPS 450.00 << my HOH DPS
    Team - capt 8994.44
    Scenarios
    Capt DPS Run Time Capt % of total damage %change run duration
    0 189.01 0.00 5.00
    300 182.90 3.23 1.61
    400 180.96 4.26 0.53
    450 180.00 4.76 0.00
    500 179.05 5.27 -0.53
    600 177.19 6.25 -1.56
    800 173.57 8.17 -3.57
    1000 170.09 10.01 -5.50
    1500 161.99 14.29 -10.01
    2000 154.62 18.19 -14.10
    2500 147.90 21.75 -17.83
    3000 141.73 25.01 -21.26


    My real point is that fiddling between 450 (my HOH result in that run with a 2nd age 2-H) and +/- 10% of that makes basically no difference. Run length changes by a bit less than a second. I'd guess the difference between whether you trait Tactical Prowess or not makes a bigger difference.

    I've basically always used a 2-H. Now that I'm using HOH rather more than I recently have had cause to do(I've mostly been defaulting to LtC since the end of the LOM era), I intend to build a good 1-H... But I'd still recommend that the OP carry a 2-H for general purpose use. For easier content, for 3 or 6 mans, for solo, it makes a difference. But for going HOH in raids, not so much.
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Mar 20 2013 at 08:12 AM.

  11. #61
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    Hi all,

    I've been secretly watching you all debate about the option and I think it's fair to conclude that most of this comes down to playstyle eventually. I myself enjoy a bit of tankiness in case my own tank fails me, especially in 3 and 6 man instances with a lot of additional enemies. It shouldn't happen, but it happens sometimes. Thus for now I've chosen a 1h+shield and I like it. That being said, I am working on a suitable 2-hander for solo stuff, but my priority is building a nice one handed weapon. I'd rather be a good healer than a good DPS'er, since the latter has plenty of people around.

    Even if my heals are not that much stronger with a shield, being able to survive through more stuff is a prerequisite for me, since I tend to be very suicidal. Having 25% block is amazing. I've noticed my survivability increase significantly, and for that I am happy. The small burst of healing I can put out with WoC/RC/VS is enjoyable, especially if one of them manages to get a critical heal.

    My curiousity is surely satisfied and I got a plan to work towards, but for most people here I still see a large difference in opinions and I ask to respect each other for it. We may not all agree on our choice of weapons, but we all play the same class in the end. It's good to discuss though, and I'll gladly stand by to see you guys augment your choice!

    Thanks all. I hope we all became a little wiser of the things being said here, I sure did. I'll be sure to remain lurking here in case more stuff pops up.
    Love,
    Geo
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geosphaera View Post
    Hi all,

    I've been secretly watching you all debate about the option and I think it's fair to conclude that most of this comes down to playstyle eventually. I myself enjoy a bit of tankiness in case my own tank fails me, especially in 3 and 6 man instances with a lot of additional enemies. It shouldn't happen, but it happens sometimes. Thus for now I've chosen a 1h+shield and I like it. That being said, I am working on a suitable 2-hander for solo stuff, but my priority is building a nice one handed weapon. I'd rather be a good healer than a good DPS'er, since the latter has plenty of people around.

    Even if my heals are not that much stronger with a shield, being able to survive through more stuff is a prerequisite for me, since I tend to be very suicidal. Having 25% block is amazing. I've noticed my survivability increase significantly, and for that I am happy. The small burst of healing I can put out with WoC/RC/VS is enjoyable, especially if one of them manages to get a critical heal.

    My curiousity is surely satisfied and I got a plan to work towards, but for most people here I still see a large difference in opinions and I ask to respect each other for it. We may not all agree on our choice of weapons, but we all play the same class in the end. It's good to discuss though, and I'll gladly stand by to see you guys augment your choice!

    Thanks all. I hope we all became a little wiser of the things being said here, I sure did. I'll be sure to remain lurking here in case more stuff pops up.
    Love,
    Geo
    I can definitely see times when the extra block could come in handy on fights where you risk being over-run by adds. Scuttledells comes to mind for example, and I can see how it could help keep you alive on that last fight until the guardian's AoE taunt is off cool-down.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Geosphaera View Post
    Hi all,

    I've been secretly watching you all debate about the option
    I stickied the debate. Because you asked a question, it got debated and refined (still debating, don't stop). So now others can come in with the same question and be able to decide for themselves. Debates are great, even if they don't come to conclusion they do help reinforce both sides with supporting data.

    Pretty much every question I have had about lotro was answered by finding a debate thread.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 20 2013 at 05:57 PM.
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  14. #64
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    The table also brings up an interesting point....

    If LtC could do around 2k DPS, that might be enough (assuming there's a bit of a healing drop) that LtC would be more welcome to the raiding scene, since that would shave off 15 seconds from the fight. Back to the thread at hand...

    For LtC, it's 2H or go home. The line is all about DPS, with increased defeat response procing as a byproduct of how it improves DPS.... however, it just doesn't do the DPS increase all that well =/

    For LoM.... It boils down a threat v survivability trade.... with how bad our threat production is, I strongly lean towards halberd, but don't fault someone for going S&B, provided they still hold aggro.

    For HoH, the table is giving the very strong impression that any DPS HoH may produce isn't enough to affect a non-DPS race in any significant manner, so it comes down to optimizing what you can do for healing, which is where the shield pulls ahead. And if you are optimzing for DPS while in HoH, maybe some other things needs to be looked at....
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  15. #65
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    The person who actually posted the table said this:

    "But I'd still recommend that the OP carry a 2-H for general purpose use. For easier content, for 3 or 6 mans, for solo, it makes a difference. But for going HOH in raids, not so much."

    So obviously even the guy who wrote out this chart thinks it "significant" - as he said it makes a DIFFERENCE in 3 mans, 6 mans, and solo. His point was the value of the added damage just loses importance in larger scale content like raids. He was never trying to imply the damage differences in a 1-handed weapon and a 2-handed weapon aren't significant. In fact, he said on most other content - outside of BfE - it IS significant. So I think this debate is ending in a big misrepresentation of what was actually said, and I feel compelled to correct that. Especially considering the OP's context was actually smaller-scale content to begin with, such as duoing and 3 mans.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 21 2013 at 12:06 AM.

  16. #66
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    I usually don't do this but I just walked into a 3 man instance - which was actually the context of the OP anyway before this thread became somewhat hijacked by a continuous focus of Battle for Erebor. And as a Hands of Healing Captain here are my last 15 attacks with my two-hander according to my combat log: (this is without food, raid buffs, and a lot of other factors that could be used to increase melee dps)

    847
    1,560
    1,928
    3,304
    2,077
    1,581
    1,031
    740
    1,181
    876
    2,269
    1,581
    854
    1,581
    4,030

    I did another just for good measure:

    1,569
    862
    2,092
    937
    1,027
    812
    962
    1,445
    948
    1,049
    893
    759
    889
    4,009
    899
    2,350

    And while I'm not going to add all these numbers up, in my opinion this is not "gimped" "insignificant" "wet bagel" garbage DPS that is so worthless it's not even worth using, especially considering my Valiant Strike was still healing me for a a thousand a tick while I was doing it. So I remain of the belief Hands of Healing Captains are not the innate wusses at melee some on this forum might have you believe. They aren't champions, no doubt about that - but their damage isn't bad, especially when put in the context of their healing and many other impressive support benefits.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 21 2013 at 07:33 AM.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I usually don't do this but I just walked into a 3 man instance - which was actually the context of the OP anyway before this thread became somewhat hijacked by a continuous focus of Battle for Erebor. And as a Hands of Healing Captain here are my last 15 attacks with my two-hander according to my combat log: (this is without food, raid buffs, and a lot of other factors that could be used to increase melee dps)

    {lots of numbers}

    And while I'm not going to add all these numbers up, in my opinion this is not "gimped" "insignificant" "wet bagel" garbage DPS that is so worthless it's not even worth using, especially considering my Valiant Strike was still healing me for a a thousand a tick while I was doing it. So I remain of the belief Hands of Healing Captains are not the innate wusses at melee some on this forum would have you believe. They aren't champions, no doubt about that - but their damage isn't bad, especially when put in the context of their healing and many other impressive support benefits.
    Nobody's arguing that the damage itself is insignificant. The argument has always been that the difference in damage between the 1H and the 2H was insignificant while HoH.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Nobody's arguing that the damage itself is insignificant. The argument has always been that the difference in damage between the 1H and the 2H was insignificant while HoH.
    You may not have been saying that Tin, but I felt others were. Our damage has been continuously mocked on this forum, and I'm throwing down the gauntlet in that regard ^^

    As far as the exact differences in damage between a 1-handed weapon and 2-handed weapon - I'll go run some numbers and match them up with the numbers I listed earlier and let people see the differences so they can decide for themselves. I hate to waste crafting materials on a 1-handed sword, but I'm to that point. In any case, I'm extremely confident the differences in damage will be more "significant" than the differences a shield will make for my heals.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    You may not have been saying that Tin, but I felt others were. Our damage has been continuously mocked on this forum, and I'm throwing down the gauntlet in that regard

    As far as the exact differences in damage between a 1-handed weapon and 2-handed weapon - I'll go run some numbers and match them up with the numbers I listed earlier and let people see the differences so they can decide for themselves. I hate to waste crafting materials on a 1-handed sword, but I'm to that point. In any case, I'm extremely confident the differences in damage will be more "significant" than the differences a shield will make for my heals.
    You've probably got the open slots, so if you're just comparing the damage of a 1H vs a 2H and not trying to show how high either can get you'd probably be better off just using a 3rd age 1H and 2H with no relics. Obviously you're not gonna have super high numbers, but it should make it a lot easier to compare the damage between the two, and simple math should be able to bump the damage up to what it would realistically be on a 2nd age with full relics.

    I'd also recommend using CombatAnalysis, since your numbers don't take into account how long the fight actually was (and since the 1H has a slightly faster attack speed it may affect the total DPS of the 1H in a positive manner that just posting the damage of the attacks wouldn't show).

    I'd test this, but unfortunately I only have one open slot that I'm currently using to get LI scrolls for an emblem. I do have 2nd ages for both 1H and 2H but I've got the points set up on the 1H where the DPS isn't maxed, so it wouldn't be a valid comparison (plus I use different relics on the two, which may throw off the numbers a little bit).

    One side note: 2H is definitely the way to go for DPS purposes. I personally use a 1H for healing because in my build the loss of DPS from dropping to a 1H (but still attacking!) is more than countered by the gain in healing I'm able to do. 1H damage is still noticeable though, and any captain who isn't actively attacking is an idiot (with a few exceptions, such as the second boss in Goblintown, because that stupid disease cloud thing hits pretty hard on a class that can't effectively heal itself).
    Last edited by TinDragon; Mar 21 2013 at 07:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    You've probably got the open slots, so if you're just comparing the damage of a 1H vs a 2H and not trying to show how high either can get you'd probably be better off just using a 3rd age 1H and 2H with no relics. Obviously you're not gonna have super high numbers, but it should make it a lot easier to compare the damage between the two, and simple math should be able to bump the damage up to what it would realistically be on a 2nd age with full relics.

    I'd test this, but unfortunately I only have one open slot that I'm currently using to get LI scrolls for an emblem. I do have 2nd ages for both 1H and 2H but I've got the points set up on the 1H where the DPS isn't maxed, so it wouldn't be a valid comparison (plus I use different relics on the two, which may throw off the numbers a little bit).
    I don't' think that would be a good way to test what I'm saying because having a high critical rating/critical magnitude is central to my argument. I've always said the reason two-handed weapons perform better than one-handed weapons is because of the critical damage involved, that's what makes the difference. So using two swords with empty relics wouldn't give an accurate representation of their full potential in my opinion.

    I think I have some relic removal scrolls that could speed up the preparation, if I didn't already hand them off to friends of mine. But I would definitely want to test this with both weapons fully stacked with critical rating relics and high critical builds.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    ).
    One side note: 2H is definitely the way to go for DPS purposes. I personally use a 1H for healing because in my build the loss of DPS from dropping to a 1H (but still attacking!) is more than countered by the gain in healing I'm able to do. 1H damage is still noticeable though, and any captain who isn't actively attacking is an idiot (with a few exceptions, such as the second boss in Goblintown, because that stupid disease cloud thing hits pretty hard on a class that can't effectively heal itself).
    Speaking of Goblin Town, do you know what causes that nasty wound effect during the last boss phase? I duoed this the other day with a friend and on that last fight I got this extremely nasty DoT effect on me that almost took me out and I had no idea where it came from. It was something I never encountered before, not even when I used to solo through it on my warden.

    I don't think it was the poison cloud because I ran all the way down the hallway trying to get rid of what ever it was. I burned poison pots, wound pots... nothing was working and it caused me to go into panic mode lol So I'd really like to know what caused that so I can hopefully avoid it in the future.

  22. #72
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    Thank you, Jeremi for giving the theories an actual test. I guess we all very eagerly await the results.

    I, for one, still do not get the crit argument for two-handers clearly. Of, course, the damage dealt by the each crit will be more amplified in actual numbers than it would be with a one-hander. On the other hand, should the one-hander not manage to achive more crits during the same time due to the faster attack speed?

    Maybe I should infiltrate the champs part of the forums for similar discussions there...
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Speaking of Goblin Town, do you know what causes that nasty wound effect during the last boss phase? I duoed this the other day with a friend and on that last fight I got this extremely nasty DoT effect on me that almost took me out and I had no idea where it came from. It was something I never encountered before, not even when I used to solo through it on my warden.

    I don't think it was the poison cloud because I ran all the way down the hallway trying to get rid of what ever it was. I burned poison pots, wound pots... nothing was working and it caused me to go into panic mode lol So I'd really like to know what caused that so I can hopefully avoid it in the future.
    I've seen it pop up quite frequently during the last boss fight, but never before the wargs come out. I have a feeling it may be a warg's frontal attack of some manner? I'm not entirely positive though. I do know, however, that it's one of those wounds that counts up, not down, which means it won't expire until you're out of combat (similar to how the wound from the Sneaks worked before the update).
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  24. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    2,135
    Quote Originally Posted by Curulanthir View Post
    Thank you, Jeremi for giving the theories an actual test. I guess we all very eagerly await the results.

    I, for one, still do not get the crit argument for two-handers clearly. Of, course, the damage dealt by the each crit will be more amplified in actual numbers than it would be with a one-hander. On the other hand, should the one-hander not manage to achive more crits during the same time due to the faster attack speed?

    Maybe I should infiltrate the champs part of the forums for similar discussions there...
    I'll do a second test and put a time table on the experiment and post the melee attacks done during a certain time frame for you. That should compensate for any advantages you think a 1-handed weapon may bring in attack speed I think. I'll just find a boss with a lot of hp and beat on him for a minute with one weapon, then beat on with the other for a minute and post the results.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I've seen it pop up quite frequently during the last boss fight, but never before the wargs come out. I have a feeling it may be a warg's frontal attack of some manner? I'm not entirely positive though. I do know, however, that it's one of those wounds that counts up, not down, which means it won't expire until you're out of combat (similar to how the wound from the Sneaks worked before the update).
    I see. Well next time I see wargs coming I'll go hide somewhere until the tank has them safely facing the other way then. I did not like that wound at all.

 

 
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