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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Knock our DPS all you want, I'll take 10% more DPS over 1% more healing 8 days a week. And a 2h likely does more than 10% more DPS. So many RCs are top-offs or overheals, and 1% more on VS and WoC is not a game-breaker. IMO, there are more situations where having things die even only a few seconds faster will save a lot of heals from ever needing to be cast.

    Every class should pay at least a little attention to DPS regardless of how little they do. Little things add up, and there's no reason not to.
    Just curious, do folks have numbers to back that up? I currently uses a 2-H 2nd age. Going HOH in Battle of Erebor, I did on the order of 1000 HPS and 375 DPS last time I parsed, the overwhelming majority of it was auto attacks. I'd make the case that 10% of 375 DPS is irrelevant to fight success here. Mind you, in other fights which are actually races, it might be the little bit that helps, and soloing or small group the extra DPS is nice, but in a raid context 10% of a captain's DPS, PARTICULARLY if running HOH, is really not much to speak of. I also think discussing the trade off without actual numbers is sort of pointless. And the other benefits than direct stats of a 1-H (survivability and faster skill usage) are of course a bit hard to quantify.

    BTW, where did the 10% come from anyway? I think a 2-H did about 25% more compared to a comparable 1-H last time somebody posted parses, has that changed?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Just curious, do folks have numbers to back that up? I currently uses a 2-H 2nd age. Going HOH in Battle of Erebor, I did on the order of 1000 HPS and 375 DPS last time I parsed, the overwhelming majority of it was auto attacks. I'd make the case that 10% of 375 DPS is irrelevant to fight success here. Mind you, in other fights which are actually races, it might be the little bit that helps, and soloing or small group the extra DPS is nice, but in a raid context 10% of a captain's DPS, PARTICULARLY if running HOH, is really not much to speak of. I also think discussing the trade off without actual numbers is sort of pointless. And the other benefits than direct stats of a 1-H (survivability and faster skill usage) are of course a bit hard to quantify.
    I think it would be interesting to see the HPS/DPS parses of a healing mini and/or RK for the same instances.

    And honestly, I think the amount of DPS we're quivering over here could be lost by a champ if they hit a lag spike on a boss fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    BTW, where did the 10% come from anyway? I think a 2-H did about 25% more compared to a comparable 1-H last time somebody posted parses, has that changed?
    The 10% could have been made up on the spot.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The 10% could have been made up on the spot.
    That would explain it. Going LtC in Inferno/Catapults (my previous post was HOH and Blood Brothers/Catapults) I went 1525 DPS on the first boss. Of course, that did involve 2 Oathies, Command suit, reveal weakness, and telling mark to juice it up. Didn't notice what my HPS was though. For Inferno,which is a race, the 2-H is probably a win though. I'd still say for difficult raids, where I'm more likely to be HOH these days than in the past and more likely to be slightly more healing focused, my DPS is often going to be 500 or less and the slight DPS difference to the raid is nothing to speak of.

    For those worrying about DPS contributions in a raid context, obviously other things a Captain does can make a vastly bigger difference than your personal 1-H vs 2-H. Biggest delta there is to get wear your command suit and keep sure-strike debuff up... In fights involving target switching, traiting 2xLOM for insta marks. Traiting Tactical Prowess. Oathies. All will swamp your personal difference...

    I sound like I'm strongly arguing for 1-H, and I'm not. I currently do 2-H, though I'm thinking of switching when one of the many first ages that I've seen fall actually ends up in my bag or I finally get enough seals. But I would say in raid contexts the DPS difference really isn't all some seem to make it out to be in terms of group success/failure, and people should consider the trade-offs...

  4. #29
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    I misremembered 10% as the autoattack difference. Quickly looking at autoattack DPS difference between 1st age crafted 1H and 2H looks like 11-12% difference. I don't have a lvled up 2nd age 2H and 1H with crystals any more to compare (and I'm looking at craftable LIs right now), maybe the disparity was different for that causing my misquote. The real difference is a somewhat larger even than that, dependent on your big skills and their cooldowns. Like, despite the difference in attack duration of 1H vs 2H, you spam SL, DB, and BoE at the same rate because of cooldowns, so the DPS difference for those three skills is like that of the relationship between avg 2h hit vs avg 1h hit, i.e. roughly 47% difference judging again from looking at list of LIs I can craft since I don't have two leveled up 1H & 2H weapons of the same age anymore. The other attacks are basically autoattack strength, though. Def Strike, Sure Strike, Inspire, etc.

    Put it all together and when I said "by 10% or more" I was low-balling. Partly in error, partly deliberately, so as not to undermine my point that any extra dps is usually valuable by overinflating numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Just curious, do folks have numbers to back that up? I currently uses a 2-H 2nd age. Going HOH in Battle of Erebor, I did on the order of 1000 HPS and 375 DPS last time I parsed, the overwhelming majority of it was auto attacks. I'd make the case that 10% of 375 DPS is irrelevant to fight success here. Mind you, in other fights which are actually races, it might be the little bit that helps, and soloing or small group the extra DPS is nice, but in a raid context 10% of a captain's DPS, PARTICULARLY if running HOH, is really not much to speak of. I also think discussing the trade off without actual numbers is sort of pointless. And the other benefits than direct stats of a 1-H (survivability and faster skill usage) are of course a bit hard to quantify.
    Yeah maybe if you trash your own damage by choosing to run HoH, then little increases become miniscule. Which you do say.

    As for discussing trade-off without actual numbers, here's some numbers. Lately in the melee-train zergs of BfE I've been participating in, I'll get something like 160k total damage on the two trolls with I think it's 890k health each? So like 9% of total damage done while red-traited w 2H, while buffing, while debuffing, while doing my part with VS and RC. Very comparable to what I'd do with my kin in Acid Zerg @75. 8-10% of total damage done. That's my personal slice of the total-damage pie and it tends to stay around there give or take a couple % depending on group; my DPS (and everyone elses) wildly varies based on # of burgs, etc, so I prefer to look at total damage done.
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  5. #30
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    Now, 1k DPS in HoH might not be so realistic in a raid situation, but it is very much doable in 3 and 6 mans...
    Thought it throw it out there as it looks like some people consider 1k DPS in HoH for being impossible.

    As for the whole 2H/S&B dicussion - Use what ever you like, it really doesn't make that much of a difference in most situations.
    HOWEVER the Block from a Shield makes a huge difference in certain situations - Mostly referring to PvP here.
    There is a few PvE situations where it is quite nice as well though, such as the last bunch of adds at the books in School, with S&B I found that I can just run in(Might and Crit build) an tank all of them keeping myself alive with MC self-heal, VS & RC, while the rest of my group takes care of the books.
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  6. #31
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    If you're healing, you should run with a shield. Your damage is so gimped already.
    I think I did a parse with both weapons out in bfe... Got like 500 damage with a 2h and 440 with my 1h. So congrats you added 60 dps to the raid. Over a 10 minute raid you'll do an extra 36,000.

    If you're red line you should run with a 2h... Unless for some reason you're going crit-cry and trying to heal like that, which is somewhat viable.
    Reasoning is pretty sound... You'll get a lot more crits in red line and a 2h does a lot better on critical damage than a puny 1h. Also with blade brother you'll have such a low AD anyway that I doubt you'd notice the difference between a 1h and a 2h.

    Unfortunately, while running the t2 raids and I can assure you that more dps is not only un-needed but punished by the raids... How wonderful! So better invest in that shield guys.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    If you're healing, you should run with a shield.
    .
    Dunebug, I get that you prefer a shield when healing and that's fine - but that doesn't mean all Captains who are healing "should" run with a shield in my opinion.

    I think the best advice for Captains on this subject is probably just to try them both out - then decide which you prefer. That's what I did. Because what ever choice you make - neither is going to make or break your ability to effectively heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuneBug View Post
    . You'll get a lot more crits in red line and a 2h does a lot better on critical damage than a puny 1h. .
    And this is the broader point I was trying to make earlier, but I don't understand why you think this logic only applies to the "red line".

    It's not that difficult for Hands of Healing Captains to get their critical chance up to 25% and 2-handers can do a "lot better on critical damage than a puny 1h" when a Hands of Healing Captain is using it too. So I have a hard time understanding why you seem to think the damage difference a 2-hander can make is so significant for one Captain but next to nothing for the other.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 19 2013 at 02:15 AM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    And this is the broader point I was trying to make earlier, but I don't understand why you think this logic only applies to the "red line".

    It's not that difficult for Hands of Healing Captains to get their critical chance up to 25% and 2-handers can do a "lot better on critical damage than a puny 1h" when a Hands of Healing Captain is using it too. So I have a hard time understanding why you seem to think the damage difference a 2-hander can make is so significant for one Captain but next to nothing for the other.
    A lot of the LtC damage comes from Shadow's Lament, and without that ungated, the damage potential is not there. Also, because there's at least 4 traits needed to fully boost captain DPS (ignoring the 4 traitline bonus), the lack of those traits causes a pretty significant drop in DPS, since Blade of Elendil (another hard hitting skill) typically isn't hitting as hard in a non-LtC build. It's not about gear when talking about HoH and LtC, it's about the traits and what you're doing - since I can take an identical gearing and get significantly more DPS out of my LtC traiting than I can out of my HoH traiting, but the HPS from a HoH traiting blows the LtC traiting's HPSout of the water.

    That said, looking at the lower DPS output of HoH (which is by design), it's already doing abysmal DPS (when compared to other classes), so losing the additional DPS for healing (especially when you need the healing to carry PUG healers) is more than justified.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    A lot of the LtC damage comes from Shadow's Lament, and without that ungated, the damage potential is not there. Also, because there's at least 4 traits needed to fully boost captain DPS (ignoring the 4 traitline bonus), the lack of those traits causes a pretty significant drop in DPS, since Blade of Elendil (another hard hitting skill) typically isn't hitting as hard in a non-LtC build. It's not about gear when talking about HoH and LtC, it's about the traits and what you're doing - since I can take an identical gearing and get significantly more DPS out of my LtC traiting than I can out of my HoH traiting, but the HPS from a HoH traiting blows the LtC traiting's HPSout of the water.

    That said, looking at the lower DPS output of HoH (which is by design), it's already doing abysmal DPS (when compared to other classes), so losing the additional DPS for healing (especially when you need the healing to carry PUG healers) is more than justified.
    You have already told me I'm not going to change your mind about this, so I'm not even going to try. We just don't' agree about this, never are - so there is really not point in my continuing this debate with you.

    My opinion is 2-handers crit significantly harder than 1-handers rather you are red line or blue line. I know this from experience, and I frequently land 3-4k crits as a Hands of Healing Captain with my 2-hander. That is quite a bit more damage than I do with a 1-hander. So you and Dunebug can continue to say healing captains have horrible almost non-existent damage that isn't even worth caring about all you want, but that's simply not the case in my experience and I am as equally unchanged in my opinion as you are in your's.

    As far as your other points - as I said earlier it comes down to the play-style and the individual captain. If you feel a shield is justified, then by all means use one. There are benefits to using either. My problem is when people make broad assumptions that all HoH Captains have terrible damage and should therefore wear a shield, because that's not true. If wearing a shield helps you than that is great. I have nothing against Captains who wear shields. Just extend that same courtesy to those of us who choose to use a 2-hander, and try not to tell us we are doing something wrong we shouldn't be doing.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 20 2013 at 09:13 AM.

  10. #35
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    I agree with Jeremi. Every setup has its pros and cons, and every Captain should give both a serious try.

    In the past (65 and 75 caps), I was always running around with a halberd, because I personally really like the animations with it. Now in 85, I got my second an third Symbol of Celebrimbor at the (nearly) same time, so I had both a halberd and a one-hander made. Since the one-hander got better legacies on it and a fourth main pool, too, I thought I should give it a try. Since then, I felt good with running around with a shield, because the fast speed helps me to get my skill rotation through more efficient (and power is not really an issue anymore).

    Every captain should have his focus. I prefer to be the last man standing, since dead captains can't support, so I admit I was always running around with better defenses in the past and having a shield definitely ups the ante a bit. But if someone prefers different, it is their choice and the class is flexible enough to fulfill whetever purpose necessary.
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  11. #36
    Here is how I see it.

    There are 3 choices to make

    1) Do I want the best dps (2hander)
    2) Do I want the best hps (shield)
    3) Do I want a little of both. (2 hander)

    My decision was to have the best HPS I can get. With 2300 tactical mastery and +4 pulses on the shield I want, the choice was easy. I wanted the best HPS, so DPS didn't matter to me. I usually heal at around 2.5k- 3k HPS, and 400-500DPS (can hit 5k if there are pets in fellow). My DPS is terrible, so terrible a 2hander won't fix it, so I go as far as I can in the role I am trying to provide. My purpose in that role is to heal so I choose healing over all dps.

    I think several of you are just choosing the 3rd choice, trying to do a mix of both, and there is nothing wrong with that. At some point we will be asked to provide for all 3 choices, so we should be prepared for all 3 the best way we can.

    For my purpose, choice two (healing), an X% increase would reap much better value if applied to healing.
    500dps +X%
    or
    3000hps +X%.

    Anything applied to dps doesn't effect my purpose, until I switch to purpose 3 or 1.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 19 2013 at 11:25 AM.
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  12. #37
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    Is the outgoing healing cap that hard to hit that the 2300 from a shield is significant? I haven't really checked my character recently, but it seems like it caps at ~31,000 Tactical Mastery? Counting various jewelry procs, scrolls, and possibly IDoME, it may be easy to do so in a raid, even with a 2H.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Is the outgoing healing cap that hard to hit that the 2300 from a shield is significant? I haven't really checked my character recently, but it seems like it caps at ~31,000 Tactical Mastery? Counting various jewelry procs, scrolls, and possibly IDoME, it may be easy to do so in a raid, even with a 2H.
    Nah man, OGH cap has been way higher than 50% since RoR launch. Some minstrels on their forums say it's like 70% or something. I couldn't tell you for sure what it is myself except that it's more than 50%.
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  14. #39
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    70% is what I've heard as well. I know minis that have gotten around 64-65% while in the Moors from the outpost buffs, and that was shortly after RoR release.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Nah man, OGH cap has been way higher than 50% since RoR launch. Some minstrels on their forums say it's like 70% or something. I couldn't tell you for sure what it is myself except that it's more than 50%.
    Interesting. Are the calculations the same, do you know (aka, is 2300 Tactical Mastery still ~1% OH around the 30k mastery range)?

    I guess either way, I don't play my Captain in a way that I'd sacrifice so much DPS for that 1%. Maybe if WoC stacked and I were lucky enough to get the gold shield, but even then, it would be a tough decision. It would take too much remapping of my muscle memory of 6 years to become the type of Captain who cycles through and gives everyone WoC. I can't even manage that sort of thing on my RK.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    My opinion is 2-handers crit significantly harder than 1-handers rather you are red line or blue line. I know this from experience, and I frequently land 3-4k crits as a Hands of Healing Captain with my 2-hander. That is quite a bit more damage than I do with a 1-hander.
    The problem with this logic is the same problem hunters fall into sometimes. They see big numbers and assume because of that their DPS is good. However, try parsing with CombatAnalysis up. Even with hitting those big crits, your actual DPS will still be almost insignificant. It's a combination of the slow attack speed (even with War Cry and Blade Brother's SoW) and the fact that the hits in between those big crits hit like wet bagels.

    I've personally been running around with a 2H recently, but only because I don't need to heal as much as possible and because waving around giant sticks is funny to me.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    The problem with this logic is the same problem hunters fall into sometimes. They see big numbers and assume because of that their DPS is good. However, try parsing with CombatAnalysis up. Even with hitting those big crits, your actual DPS will still be almost insignificant. It's a combination of the slow attack speed (even with War Cry and Blade Brother's SoW) and the fact that the hits in between those big crits hit like wet bagels.
    The really embarassing part of parses is that, despite the big floaty numbers you sometimes see on SL or DB crits, the winner is your auto-attacks...

    To those who think 10% (if that is the number) of the ~ 400-500 DPS folks typically put out with a 2-H doing HOH makes a difference in a raid context, it is a point of view. But doesn't it doesn't seem to have a very strong quantitative basis to me. I see DPS classes with routine parses of over 3000 DPS, and the differential for a Capt between 1-H and 2-H is rather lost down in the noise. Could the DPS differential matter in an edge case? Sure. Could the extra healing/speed/survivability of a 1-H matter in an edge case? Sure.
    The differential is greater for LtC, just because (your results may vary) I often parse around 1100-1200 DPS in LtC if I'm not doing significant amounts of words of courage. So if you are running LtC maybe the balance changes. And if you in a small group, it likewise is a different story as your damage is a much bigger percentatage of the total.

    Again, if DPS is actually your priority in a raid, you'll provide vastly more DPS by putting on a command suit and keeping sure strike debuff up even if you do no other attacks whatsoever and are attacking with a 3rd age 1-H buff stick.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    The problem with this logic is the same problem hunters fall into sometimes. They see big numbers and assume because of that their DPS is good. However, try parsing with CombatAnalysis up. Even with hitting those big crits, your actual DPS will still be almost insignificant. It's a combination of the slow attack speed (even with War Cry and Blade Brother's SoW) and the fact that the hits in between those big crits hit like wet bagels.

    I've personally been running around with a 2H recently, but only because I don't need to heal as much as possible and because waving around giant sticks is funny to me.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that Captain DPS is *good*. But if you can do 300 more DPS with a 2H than with S&B, that's ~60,000 extra damage over a 3-minute fight. Some people may choose that over 1% more heals, some may not. Everyone should do what fits their play. I remember being really excited when I got the shield from Zogtark way back when, but eventually realized that, while rare and shiny, it made me less effective, personally. I repeated the mistake when I got the Dark Delving shield, and ran around with a turtle-shell sword for a few days before it lost its novelty.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that Captain DPS is *good*. But if you can do 300 more DPS with a 2H than with S&B, that's ~60,000 extra damage over a 3-minute fight. Some people may choose that over 1% more heals, some may not. Everyone should do what fits their play. I remember being really excited when I got the shield from Zogtark way back when, but eventually realized that, while rare and shiny, it made me less effective, personally. I repeated the mistake when I got the Dark Delving shield, and ran around with a turtle-shell sword for a few days before it lost its novelty.
    The "good" was referring to hunters who think that. I'd probably describe captain simply as "appears better than it actually is".
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    The problem with this logic is the same problem hunters fall into sometimes. They see big numbers and assume because of that their DPS is good. However, try parsing with CombatAnalysis up. Even with hitting those big crits, your actual DPS will still be almost insignificant. It's a combination of the slow attack speed (even with War Cry and Blade Brother's SoW) and the fact that the hits in between those big crits hit like wet bagels.

    I've personally been running around with a 2H recently, but only because I don't need to heal as much as possible and because waving around giant sticks is funny to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    The really embarassing part of parses is that, despite the big floaty numbers you sometimes see on SL or DB crits, the winner is your auto-attacks...

    To those who think 10% (if that is the number) of the ~ 400-500 DPS folks typically put out with a 2-H doing HOH makes a difference in a raid context, it is a point of view. But doesn't it doesn't seem to have a very strong quantitative basis to me. I see DPS classes with routine parses of over 3000 DPS, and the differential for a Capt between 1-H and 2-H is rather lost down in the noise. Could the DPS differential matter in an edge case? Sure. Could the extra healing/speed/survivability of a 1-H matter in an edge case? Sure.
    The differential is greater for LtC, just because (your results may vary) I often parse around 1100-1200 DPS in LtC if I'm not doing significant amounts of words of courage. So if you are running LtC maybe the balance changes. And if you in a small group, it likewise is a different story as your damage is a much bigger percentatage of the total.

    Again, if DPS is actually your priority in a raid, you'll provide vastly more DPS by putting on a command suit and keeping sure strike debuff up even if you do no other attacks whatsoever and are attacking with a 3rd age 1-H buff stick.
    Even my auto attacks crit for over 1k, so I don't think we hit like "wet bagels" in between our devastates. So we just have a difference in opinion here - and I think it's "significant". And I don't see any problem with my logic. My point was 2-handers do more damage from critical hits than 1-handers do no matter what trait line you invest in as a Captain, and that's true as far as I see it - and that's why I pointed out my devastates - to underline that point. So I don't understand what your analogy about hunters who get excited over "big floaty numbers" has to do with what I was trying to say. You and Delgon seem to think of me as someone who gets overly excited because of big numbers, and that's why I like to use two-handed weapons. It's not, but I'm not sure how I could convince you of that.

    I judge what weapon I should use by how quickly and easily I kill things (not by big floaty numbers) - and the 2-hander wins that argument with me hands down. If you kill things easier with a sword/shield combo, then great - and I'm glad it works for you. But for me it simply didn't.

    So I think you were basically misunderstanding my argument. I was never trying to say Captain dps is on par with hunters or that "big floaty numbers" is what really matters. It isn't I agree. But I think our damage is good enough to where it is worth caring about, even when you are a Hands of Healing Captain IN MY OPINION. If people want to use shields then that is fine, and I see no problem with it. But this constant bashing of HoH Captain damage is unwarranted in my mind, especially considering the amount of healing we can easily dish out while in melee. So to me at least, it's worth caring about. If it isn't for you, Almagnus or Dunebug then fine, I can respect that. But just know not all Hands of Healing Captains feel that way, and their play style has merit as well.

    Also I'm staring to repeat myself a lot in this debate so I don't see myself making any headway. The best solution here is for each Captain to try both out and decide on their own - because both sides of this argument obviously feel strongly about their opinions and aren't going to change their minds one way or the other. As I (and others) have said in earlier postings, individual play-style is probably the largest factor in this debate, and that's why opinions about this seem to vary so vastly.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 19 2013 at 03:13 PM.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that Captain DPS is *good*. But if you can do 300 more DPS with a 2H than with S&B, that's ~60,000 extra damage over a 3-minute fight.
    Is the 2hander 300 more dps than the 1 hander?
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  22. #47
    Captain is a support class. It means buffs( including intercept and offtanking), dps, heal. In that order. Hoh captain is a waste of raid or group space. Let healers do their job, but don't forget to help them time to time So, 2h and a yellow line is a way to go. Imo ofc

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Brooklyn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Is the 2hander 300 more dps than the 1 hander?
    In that hypothetical situation? Yes.

    As for reality, you'll have to check to see what you do 1h vs. 2h. I have no idea what your DPS is like.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,135
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    . Hoh captain is a waste of raid or group space.
    It's comments like these that make me question why I even bother

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Mississippi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Captain is a support class. It means buffs( including intercept and offtanking), dps, heal. In that order. Hoh captain is a waste of raid or group space. Let healers do their job, but don't forget to help them time to time So, 2h and a yellow line is a way to go. Imo ofc
    Are you trolling, or did I just get transported back to 2011?
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