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  1. #1
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    A choice of arms: shield or big-hitter?

    Hi all,

    I've recently got my Captain up to 85 and I've decided to move into the HoH line to be a bit of a supportive healer. I am however, in doubt wether I should stick with 2-handed weapons or go in the 1-handed weapons + shield. I've seen some shields around and the stats look very nice and beneficial to a Captain whose main role is not to go on a DPS streak. However, I fear I may be gimping myself completely by picking up a 1-hander, making the Captain even more fragile to handle. I generally play in groups or duo, but I'd like to be able to do something myself when the time is there. I also noticed that in 3-man instances, DPS is sometimes hard to come by and some support-DPS from a Cappy can be very welcome.

    Does anyone have experience on the subject and can advice me what weapon to choose, and why?

    Greets,
    Geosphaera

  2. #2
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    With as much might as a captain has, by slotting a shield, you will easily be sitting at 20% block, with close to a 40% total BPE score, so survivability will increase dramatically - at least, that's the numbers I see when I slot my shield + healing 1H sword.

    As far as stats go, the shield will give you far better stats (and more controlled stats), and you will (most likely) see a percent or two increase on outgoing healing by going sword and board.

    However, you will sacrifice DPS (not that ours is anything to write home about anyhow).

    At the end of the day though, it comes down to how you want to play the captain, and I do not fault anyone for choosing a shield to heal or tank with.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  3. #3
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    Personally I go with a shield. I like the mastery boost (especially once I got the gold shield, but I was S&B before that too). My logic with it is that like Almagnus said, our DPS is nothing to write home about anyway. I'd rather improve my support role by dropping a bit of DPS that doesn't really matter much in the long run anyway.

    I do have a 2H for DPS purposes though, and I have been using it a lot lately even in raids, since a lot of the new stuff is pretty easy.
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  4. #4
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    I go with a shield most of the time now only because I macro stuff and need the lower attack duration to fit things like SS into my rotation (while red traited).

    Your dps is not insignificant in 3mans, nor in 6mans for single-target--it's just not the majority. Big difference. If you contribute 15% of the single-target damage in a fellowship, that ain't insignficant, and buffing your own DPS by 10% or more with a 2H vs 1H isn't insignificant either. But then I was brought into raiding with Orthanc so my perception may be skewed to squeezing out more DPS in all situations unless punished for it by fight mechanics.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 11 2013 at 05:07 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Thumbs up

    Those were some great insightful comments. I figured since I'm playing with my girlfriend (AoE Champion) 90% of the times, my DPS will not the main factor I should look after. The other 10% will likely be easy. It's not like 1 handers do no damage at all. Due to that, I'll start hunting for some nice shields and a 2A one-hander someday. I'll keep a 3A two-handed weapon handy just in case, sounds like a good advice. Now just to get those. ^^

    I noticed I get aggro frequently at beginning of fights due to the HoT's still in effect and the tank unable to build sufficient group aggro to keep it maintained. I survive 9/10 times, but some extra defensive capacity and the ability for more stats (crit rating etc.) on a shield convinced me enough. I tend to run 3 mans with DPS heavy groups, so I think my lack of DPS will not be horrible. If it is, I can always swap on the fly.

    Thanks guys, for the advice!
    Last edited by Geosphaera; Mar 11 2013 at 05:53 AM.
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  6. #6
    Me uses in 3-man typical on the way to the bosses my 1st Age 2-handed Sword (75*)
    At the Bosses i change to 2nd Age 1-handed Sword (75*) and my Board, the Shield of Endless Heroics, from Trouble in Tuckborough.

    In this Way me tank & heal for my friends.
    "Revealing Mark" is my friend, i nearly never use "Noble Mark". My Friends give me the Minute for start tanking.

    I am a Crithealer an do this in 5red+cap; 2blue, IDOM, Fellowship Bro.
    With U10 me uses 2 Pers from the Etten, 2 Dagor from Orthanc and 2 Hybold Healer Setparts.
    Our Dmg ist not so bad as the most people think. 1,4k is quite well i think. Of course the real DD will do twice at much and more, but what we do also, there is a lot of moral and a lot of power that we share to our mates.

    If you have the luck to play with a Champion take Pressing Attacks max on your Sword. So both of you will enjoy the time that Enemy do the fault to surround you both. Put Revealing Mark on the biggest Foe and start AOEing. There will be enough crits and fallen Enemys for you the heal against the dmg easily. Your Dmg will also heal both of you. I am a bit jealous :-)


    * I use allready my lvl 75 Weapons, because the little benefit of the dmg is for me too less. On my 2-handed Sword i will lose a lot of skillpoints. And for tanking is on my sight the Dmg boost not necessary. I will upgrade my Weapons if i get enough Seals to get 1st Ages.

  7. #7
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    1h's have a shorter attack duration and i think virtually all of our heals are affected by this, so 1h builds are the most optimal for healing.

    Block and stats is also great, but i've always done it for the shorter attacks.
    Cheers.
    .
    85 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  8. #8
    Depends on what you want to do.

    If you want to bring the best dps you can, take the 2 hander

    If you want to bring the best heals you can take the Sword and board. 2 handed healing just can't match it. Check out our best shield.

    1k armor
    784 crit defense
    152 might
    83.4 icpr
    776 tactical mastery
    +4 words of courage pulses.

    ^ that is way better than you can get on a 2 hand bonus.

    I'm using Shield of endless heroics in the meantime. It's a fantastic heal tool. It will also give you the flexibility in morale, or defense to deeper into healing then would otherwise be safe.

    It's also my belief that captains are the keystone of a moors raid. Creeps want to take us out first if they can. I modeled my captain healer after the warleader, tank-healer.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 11 2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geosphaera View Post
    Hi all,

    I've recently got my Captain up to 85 and I've decided to move into the HoH line to be a bit of a supportive healer. I am however, in doubt wether I should stick with 2-handed weapons or go in the 1-handed weapons + shield. I've seen some shields around and the stats look very nice and beneficial to a Captain whose main role is not to go on a DPS streak. However, I fear I may be gimping myself completely by picking up a 1-hander, making the Captain even more fragile to handle. I generally play in groups or duo, but I'd like to be able to do something myself when the time is there. I also noticed that in 3-man instances, DPS is sometimes hard to come by and some support-DPS from a Cappy can be very welcome.

    Does anyone have experience on the subject and can advice me what weapon to choose, and why?

    Greets,
    Geosphaera
    Other people in this forum are making a lot of excellent points. Using a shield does put your block stat to some use. It's always bothered me how when using a 2-hander that aspect of might basically goes to waste. I also agree with them that it helps you fire off skills faster, and this can be beneficial. They also have added some very nice Captain gold shields into the mix to make using a shield even more tempting.

    But IN MY OPINION it's still not worth it. You just lose too much offense when going over to a 1-hander, especially since Captains are so critical-oriented. Even when soloing, I find the amount of offense you lose to completely over-shadow the added block in terms of survivability.

    So I remain of the opinion 2-handers are the way to go on Captain. 1-handers just don't compete with 2-handers for overall effectiveness in my mind. I should point out though these comments are directed at PvE content only.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 13 2013 at 12:13 PM.

  10. #10
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    It hasn't been mentioned yet, but definitely take a good look at traits and legacies, and don't rush blindly into HoH traits. Depending on your playstyle, you may do less healing with more HoH traits, and in the process neglect some utility.

    As for shields, I have never bothered. You can eke out a couple percentage points of outgoing healing, but I find that less important for the majority of my play (I enter the fray usually, and only step back and focus on Words of Courage if the stuff hits the fan and the battlefield needs surveyed). As main healer in a difficult 3-man, I may change my tune, but even our low DPS can come in handy. Blocking is nice, but I don't frequently find myself being swung at unless I want to be. Well, except when I play around with 0-second Rallying Cry in Bells of Dale.

    Play for a while and see if what you do would benefit from more healing or more DPS. I've never heard a group leader ask for one or the other, except maybe to ask for as much DPS as possible if the fight mechanics require it.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    But IN MY OPINION it's still not worth it. You just lose too much offense when going over to a 1-hander, especially since Captains are so critical-oriented. Even when soloing, I find the amount of offense you lose to completely over-shadow the added block in terms of survivability.
    You still need to learn the combat system.... **SIGH**

    Crit rating is unaffected by the LI weapon you use, provided you have the same relics in both.

    And as far as DPS goes, ours is so bad (when compared to other classes) that it's not going to matter a whole lot, especially if you're deep HoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    As for shields, I have never bothered. You can eke out a couple percentage points of outgoing healing, but I find that less important for the majority of my play (I enter the fray usually, and only step back and focus on Words of Courage if the stuff hits the fan and the battlefield needs surveyed).
    Something semi-related to the quote: if you are just spamming WoC, you aren't healing - half our heals require us to be in melee range of something. However, if you're going with a skill rotation like WoC => <skill> => <skill>, that helps eke out the most healing potential for the captain.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 13 2013 at 04:54 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You still need to learn the combat system.... **SIGH**

    Crit rating is unaffected by the LI weapon you use, provided you have the same relics in both.

    And as far as DPS goes, ours is so bad (when compared to other classes) that it's not going to matter a whole lot, especially if you're deep HoH.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying... **SIGH** But that's ok

    What I was trying to say is basically 2-handers hit harder, and since Captain is typically built to become a critical rating heavy class, it's nice to be able to take advantage of the extra damage. It had nothing to do with learning the combat system or rather or not a 1-handed or 2-handed weapon has more critical rating on them. Just the simple realization that 2 handers do nice damage, especially when you have high critical rating to go along with it.

    Far as your opinion damage doesn't matter a whole lot for HoH Captains, we'll just have to politely agree to disagree about that. My damage is important to me, even as a HoH Captain. But anyways, I wasn't trying to trash Captains who use shields. If it works for you great. I was just answering the OP and letting him know some HoH Captains still prefer using 2-handers and I attempted to explain why. It can sometimes help to hear from a variety of perspectives when trying to decide something.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 13 2013 at 10:35 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I was saying... **SIGH** But that's ok

    What I was trying to say is basically 2-handers hit harder, and since Captain is typically built to become a critical rating heavy class, it's nice to be able to take advantage of the extra damage. It had nothing to do with learning the combat system or rather or not a 1-handed or 2-handed weapon has more critical rating on them. Just the simple realization that 2 handers do nice damage, especially when you have high critical rating to go along with it.

    Far as your opinion damage doesn't matter a whole lot for HoH Captains, we'll just have to politely agree to disagree about that. My damage is important to me, even as a HoH Captain. But anyways, I wasn't trying to trash Captains who use shields. If it works for you great. I was just answering the OP and letting him know some HoH Captains still prefer using 2-handers and I attempted to explain why. It can sometimes help to hear from a variety of perspectives when trying to decide something.
    At best, captains can do around 1.5k DPS, maybe higher.... but the DPSers can easily break 2k, and are floating closer to the 3k DPS point (going off of parses and data I have seen). Either way the phrase "nice damage" doesn't apply to captain DPS - because it's all bad when it's compared against the DPSers - and thanks to the lack of the DPS traits, HoH's is even worse than that upper limit (I would be surprised if a HoH captain could push anywhere near 1k DPS).

    The truth of the weapon choice comes down to what you run most often, and how you like playing the captain. If you do a lot of healing, I would urge you to consider going S&B, since most decent healing shields will give you at least 1k Tactical mastery. This style also comes in handy in the second half of BoE T1 PUGs where you need to carry a good chunk of the healing load because the healers can't output what they need to and/or the other captain (if there is one) is too focused on DPSing rather than healing.

    However, if the captain is an alt, or you want a good, all around weapon LI - a 2H works very well for that roll. It really comes down to playstyle.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 13 2013 at 11:13 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The truth of the weapon choice comes down to what you run most often, and how you like playing the captain. If you do a lot of healing, I would urge you to consider going S&B, since most decent healing shields will give you at least 1k Tactical mastery. This style also comes in handy in the second half of BoE T1 PUGs where you need to carry a good chunk of the healing load because the healers can't output what they need to and/or the other captain (if there is one) is too focused on DPSing rather than healing.

    However, if the captain is an alt, or you want a good, all around weapon LI - a 2H works very well for that roll. It really comes down to playstyle.
    Plan C is to make no choice. Build a 1-H and a 2-H. Which is my current plan. I have a very nice fully tricked out 2-H 2nd age. When I get a first age, I intend to make a 1-H sword, but will keep the 2-H. I'll use the 2-H for trash, for 3 mans, for easier situations. I'll use the 1-H for healing bigger groups and more difficult situations (or if I somehow get aggro, or for moors survivability).

  15. #15
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    To me, the choice is purely playstyle based, as anyone who is honestly concerned about the DPS differences in S+B and 2-hander on Cappy probably needs to go play a different class. In short, Cappies just dont do that much DPS, and in general, arent invited to groups AS dps. However, i will add that we add (indirectly) a lot of DPS to the group. To Arms with Blade-bro, pop that with the 2 skills that reduce attack duration and add 5% dmg, with war banner down, while Oathies is up. Thats some serious extra damage your group just did because of you. And all of that is completely independant from the decision of S+B vs. 2-hander. So use whichever you like the flow of better. For me, thats generally 2-hander. But ill admit if i get that gold shield, ill be swapping
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  16. #16
    Has anyone gotten our gold shield from a T1 sword halls? I'm 0/40+ and still haven't seen a gold drop for anyone never mind myself.
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  17. #17
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    Knock our DPS all you want, I'll take 10% more DPS over 1% more healing 8 days a week. And a 2h likely does more than 10% more DPS. So many RCs are top-offs or overheals, and 1% more on VS and WoC is not a game-breaker. IMO, there are more situations where having things die even only a few seconds faster will save a lot of heals from ever needing to be cast.

    Every class should pay at least a little attention to DPS regardless of how little they do. Little things add up, and there's no reason not to.
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  18. #18
    If I can get that darn gold shield it's gonna pan out to way more value than 1%, especially with 2296 tactical mastery and 1520 physical mastery. I've also had a conversion when it comes to that WOC pulse, well so long as it doesn't go to far.
    Last edited by Armitas; Mar 14 2013 at 11:24 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    I've also had a conversion when it comes to that WOC pulse, well so long as it doesn't go to far.
    I like the pulse too. Useless on the tank, but useful on other targets who need topping off. And VERY useful for gold tagging in the moors

  20. #20
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    sword n' board all the way when healing

    Captain is a supportive healer, so i try to stack tac mastery and crit while still being survivable. so i use shield for block, and i get my morale to around 11-12k for PvE.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    At best, captains can do around 1.5k DPS, maybe higher.... but the DPSers can easily break 2k, and are floating closer to the 3k DPS point (going off of parses and data I have seen). Either way the phrase "nice damage" doesn't apply to captain DPS - because it's all bad when it's compared against the DPSers - and thanks to the lack of the DPS traits, HoH's is even worse than that upper limit (I would be surprised if a HoH captain could push anywhere near 1k DPS).

    The truth of the weapon choice comes down to what you run most often, and how you like playing the captain. If you do a lot of healing, I would urge you to consider going S&B, since most decent healing shields will give you at least 1k Tactical mastery. This style also comes in handy in the second half of BoE T1 PUGs where you need to carry a good chunk of the healing load because the healers can't output what they need to and/or the other captain (if there is one) is too focused on DPSing rather than healing.

    However, if the captain is an alt, or you want a good, all around weapon LI - a 2H works very well for that roll. It really comes down to playstyle.

    Well I'm with Frisco, and much rather have the extra offense and I play Hands of Healing exclusively on my Captain and pug all the time, BoE and many other instances. To me it just makes a more significant difference than the extra benefits wearing a shield gives me. I've tried sword and shield out - and I personally didn't like it. The loss in damage I took made a big difference in my Captain's overall effectiveness - and in my opinion trumped completely the unimpressive increases it gave to my heals. But I'm starting to repeat myself here, so probably best just to agree to disagree at this point. In the end it does come down to how each individual captain likes to play. On that we can agree.

    As far as your comments about Captain damage - I'll say generally that I've never been on the Captain DPS sucks band wagon. And I'm definitely not on it now. With the recent changes to Valiant strike, the amount of healing Hands of Healing Captains can dish out while doing melee is pretty amazing. So I think our damage is quite good considering, providing they are using a 2 handed weapon that is.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Plan C is to make no choice. Build a 1-H and a 2-H. Which is my current plan. I have a very nice fully tricked out 2-H 2nd age. When I get a first age, I intend to make a 1-H sword, but will keep the 2-H. I'll use the 2-H for trash, for 3 mans, for easier situations. I'll use the 1-H for healing bigger groups and more difficult situations (or if I somehow get aggro, or for moors survivability).
    That's actually what I'm doing. I'll soon have a third weapon (2H Sword, 1H Sword, Halberd) to cover tanking, since LIs act as my stances (so to speak).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    As far as your comments about Captain damage - I'll say generally that I've never been on the Captain DPS sucks band wagon. And I'm definitely not on it now. With the recent changes to Valiant strike, the amount of healing Hands of Healing Captains can dish out while doing melee is pretty amazing. So I think our damage is quite good considering, providing they are using a 2 handed weapon that is.
    You can stick with emotion, feeling, and anecdotes. I'll stick with the hard data.

    You will not change my opinion unless you show me the data that a captain can do at least 2k DPS (which would be GOOD DPS).
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Knock our DPS all you want, I'll take 10% more DPS over 1% more healing 8 days a week. And a 2h likely does more than 10% more DPS. So many RCs are top-offs or overheals, and 1% more on VS and WoC is not a game-breaker. IMO, there are more situations where having things die even only a few seconds faster will save a lot of heals from ever needing to be cast.

    Every class should pay at least a little attention to DPS regardless of how little they do. Little things add up, and there's no reason not to.
    I agree Frisco and this pretty much mimics my thoughts about this. The increases a 2-hander adds to our offense is just so much better than the increases a shield does for our healing in my opinion.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 15 2013 at 03:26 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    T



    You can stick with emotion, feeling, and anecdotes. I'll stick with the hard data.

    You will not change my opinion unless you show me the data that a captain can do at least 2k DPS (which would be GOOD DPS).
    Just because someone disagrees with you Almagnus doesn't mean they are emotional and throwing out anecdotes

    I base my opinion off of experience. I have tried both out, and that's why I think 2-handers are better. It has nothing to do with emotion, anecdotes, or feeling. It's the simple fact my Captain performs better when he equips a 2-hander. If other captains do better with a 1-hand/shield combo, then more power to them.

    In the end, as you pointed out earlier - individual play-styles are probably the largest factor in this debate. I was just wanting the OP to understand not all Hands of Healing captains prefer a sword/shield combo. A lot of us don't, and still pack a "big-hitter". And that's fine with me if I can't change your opinion about this. I'm not trying to and you are welcome to think shields are better if you wish.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Mar 15 2013 at 03:27 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Just because someone disagrees with you Almagnus doesn't mean they are emotional and throwing out anecdotes

    I base my opinion off of experience. I have tried both out, and that's why I think 2-handers are better. It has nothing to do with emotion, anecdotes, or feeling. It's the simple fact my Captain performs better when he equips a 2-hander. If other captains do better with a 1-hand/shield combo, then more power to them.

    In the end, as you pointed out earlier - individual play-styles are probably the largest factor in this debate. I was just wanting the OP to understand not all Hands of Healing captains prefer a sword/shield combo. A lot of us don't, and still pack a "big-hitter". And that's fine with me if I can't change your opinion about this. I'm not trying to and you are welcome to think shields are better if you wish.
    Have to agree here. A captain is such a versatile class that there really is no wrong way to play one. There may be preferredways to play one but that is a personal choice. If you want that little bit of dps go 2h if you want more heals go shield.

 

 
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