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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    It makes complete sense. The Lore-Master has support as it's primary role. Removing negative effects would come under that umbrella, and is logical that it would perform noticeably better than other classes. The Minstrel on the other hand is a primary healing class, and to have it provide better effect removals than it would be encroaching into its territory.

    As for the LM removal skill, it doesn't even have an AoE effect unless traited, so the radius part of your argument is flawed. Both of the Minstrel's removal skills are AOE without requiring a trait on the other hand.

    And yes, I WILL bring the fear removal skill into the equation, because it's there and serves a purpose, and you trying to nudge it out of the picture to shore up your argument is poor form. Yes, the weaknesses you point out are there, but it also provides a fear resistance buff afteraffect which you conveniently neglected to mention. The LM skill does not(anymore).

    As far as providing examples, when I say it would be overpowered I mean in relation to the abilities of other classes. The Minstrel is already an immensely powerful class, with a huge amount of utility in group content. Trying to give them the best removal skills in the game on top of that is going too far, IMO(The RK could also compete for this assuming theirs gets buffed too).

    On a final note, I will say that I am not opposed to increasing the affecting level on principle, just not increasing the level and leaving the rest of the skill in its current format. 15s is not a lot of time, were it bumped up to 25-30 seconds then maybe I would support the change.
    But you still haven't pointed at any place that would in any way make the minstrel skill overpowered nor have you made any argument for keeping the skill useless as it currently is in the vast majority of instances. If the developers had thought there would be a problem with this skill and class balance based on relative usefulness of other class removal skills they wouldn't have made these skills removal skills.

    Someone has brought up the poison from Helegrod spider wing final boss fight. The minstrel removal skill has no effect whatsoever in that fight compared to the hunter removal skill. You need to be able to remove at minimum 3 poisons per person to make that fight viable because it's very likely you will have two or three poison effects stacked up before the poison effect is applied that will instakill you on expiration. All of those effects must be removed before you can remove the dangerous one. The minstrel removal skill cannot do this.

    Again, please point out specific instances where the minstrel removal skill is overpowered in the current content if it is finally fixed to affect conditions above the current level of the caster.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Someone has brought up the poison from Helegrod spider wing final boss fight. The minstrel removal skill has no effect whatsoever in that fight compared to the hunter removal skill. You need to be able to remove at minimum 3 poisons per person to make that fight viable because it's very likely you will have two or three poison effects stacked up before the poison effect is applied that will instakill you on expiration. All of those effects must be removed before you can remove the dangerous one. The minstrel removal skill cannot do this.

    Again, please point out specific instances where the minstrel removal skill is overpowered in the current content if it is finally fixed to affect conditions above the current level of the caster.
    bah stupid forum ate my reply so short version.

    couple of points keen to hear your counter argument:

    1)Unfair to ask for specific instances, strength not from specific instance, but from the number of places where it would be useful. Other skills limited by type not by level, level is just a different way of implementing limitations. Now the skill exists encounters are being designed where it is useful, eg BoE, multiple conditions of different types applied at the same time, and all lv85.

    2) Your not making like for like comparisons, conditions skills start off week and gain utility through traits/legacies. Perhaps we will see an increased level from a trait with our trait revamps.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  3. #28
    Unfair to ask for specific instances, maybe, but let’s take them all as a whole. Those here that would advocate new SoR being overpowered if it were brought up to , say, level 89 cite its utility in removing one of each effect. How often, in the course of running instances, do you encounter scenarios were you are actually being infected with EVERY type of effect? And moreover critical that they ALL be removed? If it were often then I might agree. However it’s not. Three sometimes happens, but is not common. Two happens enough, but usually in each encounter there is only one predominate effect you generally need to be worried about. In that respect, those classes who can remove three of the one dominant effect type that is are still going to be more desirable to have. For SoR to have the same efficacy in removing three poisons as another class a minstrel has to cast it three times (and hope to get the really nasty one on the first try) That’s means best case three removals in a 34-36 second span, then another 15 before it can be cast again. If you consider it in that regard, SoR is hardly overpowered or likely to unbalance anything, and certainly not going to step on the toes of any other class that does effect removal, even if it was brought up to level 89.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Androctus View Post
    Unfair to ask for specific instances, maybe, but let’s take them all as a whole. Those here that would advocate new SoR being overpowered if it were brought up to , say, level 89 cite its utility in removing one of each effect. How often, in the course of running instances, do you encounter scenarios were you are actually being infected with EVERY type of effect? And moreover critical that they ALL be removed? If it were often then I might agree. However it’s not. Three sometimes happens, but is not common. Two happens enough, but usually in each encounter there is only one predominate effect you generally need to be worried about. In that respect, those classes who can remove three of the one dominant effect type that is are still going to be more desirable to have. For SoR to have the same efficacy in removing three poisons as another class a minstrel has to cast it three times (and hope to get the really nasty one on the first try) That’s means best case three removals in a 34-36 second span, then another 15 before it can be cast again. If you consider it in that regard, SoR is hardly overpowered or likely to unbalance anything, and certainly not going to step on the toes of any other class that does effect removal, even if it was brought up to level 89.
    Hmm a decent point. But I think you've slightly missed the crux of the argument, its not that it can remove different effects at the same time but the number of places it is useful. If you raised the the lv to 89, then the only hard limitation you have is if you have multiple conditions at the same time which is relatively rare. Yes there are times when the tradition removals stand out, but there are an awful lot of times where they are simply not the right type. Roughly they are only useful 25% of the time (50% for LM), I think currently SoR is useful in about 25% of cases (although yes those cases tend to be the less critical ones).

    I think overpowered is the wrong word. Overpowered has connotations of game breathtakingly powerful, but I think what we mean is more powerful than the other removals. Remember the only AOE removal which doesn't have traiting limitations is the captain (and the minstrel). Giving the Minstrel the extra levels means that you are devaluing these other classes, as we're getting for free what others have to put resources into.

    But if you want example of Every condition and being critical to remove all, you have ToO and BoE, (yes ToO is underlevel but its the nature of these types of skills that they cycle round in usefulness).
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    243
    Did everyone see the hotfix known issues thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience
    Song of Restoration removes effects with a maximim strength of your Minstrel's level, rather than a maximum strength of five higher than your Minstrel's level
    So nice to know it will be fixed, and what we can expect! Btw, are there any lower level minis reading this, who have the old skill pre-improved version at 65 or whatever it is? I'm curious what that one says.

  6. #31
    excellent, oversight rather than decision it is! I'll look forward to removing with impunity.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

 

 
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