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  1. #1

    song of restoration

    well i am glad for the changes to our song sicne there is no longer dread on defeat and it works wonders now except for in OD. i think the level of our song should be raised to level 90 removals since OD has over leveled mobs and they do up to level 90 wound/disease/fear/poison dots. did OD the other day and our skill does not work in there since the dots are above level 85. please fix this. thanks.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000067ad6/signature.png]Tacito[/charsig]

  2. #2
    It isn't just OD, several instances you have this problem. The removal should be for lvl 90 dots, ./signed

  3. #3
    Agreed. Right after the patch I ran Bells of Dale, and boy this skill came in handy especially on T2 first boss. I was really loving it, till I rana few more instances and figured out it worked little place else. The level absolutely needs to be raised on it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000042076/01008/signature.png]Kilrain[/charsig]

  4. #4
    The animation/visual effect is still that of the old skill (i.e. an aura appears over all fellowship members) but from my limited use last week I couldn't tell if in fact the skill will remove wounds/disease from all fellowship members in range or if it is a single target skill, which the description leads to believe. Can someone please confirm?
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  5. #5
    The improved version(lv62) is AoE. Radius is quite small, but I think it is around your target.

    I was wondering if the level only restriction is intentional. All the Erebor stuff is max lv 85 conditions, so it is the older instances where this is an issue, perhaps the dev thought it might imbalance these encounters.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  6. #6
    ./signed.

    I also noticed that on some level 85 affects, it didn't remove the affect consistently. I was getting wounds from wolves in the crafting instance and about half the time, the wound would not get removed.
    Freia - Level 85 Elf Minstrel, Crickhollow
    Loge - Level 85 Elf Loremaster, Crickhollow
    Brunhilde - Level 85 Hobbit Burglar, Crickhollow
    Nimrodiel - Weaver, Crickhollow

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    I was wondering if the level only restriction is intentional. All the Erebor stuff is max lv 85 conditions, so it is the older instances where this is an issue, perhaps the dev thought it might imbalance these encounters.
    SoR is just another avenue to acheive something as a group you can already do, either from other classes skills or through pots, so what matters one more removal skill in the group? I don't see how that would unbalance anything. I think it's just an oversight.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000042076/01008/signature.png]Kilrain[/charsig]

  8. #8
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    Agreed. Basically, they are offering a skill that ONLY works in underleveled content. Cure pots/skills have been +5 levels since inceptions for good reason.

    Until they fix, this is in effect a skill loss with U10.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Androctus View Post
    SoR is just another avenue to achieve something as a group you can already do, either from other classes skills or through pots, so what matters one more removal skill in the group? I don't see how that would unbalance anything. I think it's just an oversight.
    Pots have 2 issues, long cooldown and require an individual to be on the ball.
    Lets consider the AOE condition removals.
    Loremaster - +Every 5 seconds, instant cast, 3 effects. -Only Wounds and Diseases, requires trait.
    Hunter- +3 effects, 10s cooldown, instant cast -only Poison, requires 4 yellow traits.
    Burglar- +All poisons, 0.5 s induction. -only Poisons, requires 5 yellow traits
    Captain- + 3 effects, instant cast. - Only Fears, 30s (20s with LI)
    RK- all effects(if blue traited), 1.5s induction Proactive? - Only wounds/poisons DPS traited, 30s cooldown, Proactive?
    Mini - all effects, 15s cooldown, no trait requirement -2s induction (but 1.2s with trait + anthem active), only one effect, only max level 85.

    SoR would be very powerful without the max level restriction, yes other abilities can be a lot more powerful in certain situations, but they are both extremely niche and require investment sometimes heavily into undesirable trait lines. No other skill has such good flexibility for so little investment.

    I'm not saying it would be overpowered or that it shouldn't be done, it just strike me that it would be very powerful, and I think the fact this skill works differently to every other one could be a design decision rather than an oversight, perhaps the +5 levels will be something we see with the class revamps as a trait option.

    Also to call it only relevant for under-levelled content is completely ridiculous, given it works on every condition in the brand new content. Which is more than Bells of Dale by the way, as well as a good sized chunk of the scalable stuff.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post

    Also to call it only relevant for under-levelled content is completely ridiculous, given it works on every condition in the brand new content. Which is more than Bells of Dale by the way, as well as a good sized chunk of the scalable stuff.
    It doesn't. All the bosses and most of the trash mobs put level 86 conditions on you. Its useless for anything but underlevel content. Not my definition of "every"... or "ridiculous".

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    It doesn't. All the bosses and most of the trash mobs put level 86 conditions on you. Its useless for anything but underlevel content. Not my definition of "every"... or "ridiculous".
    "It works on every condition in the Brand new content." So Bells of Dale, Erebor, Smaug, Lonely mountain. If you dispute then please offer an example.

    "A good sized chunk of the scalable stuff." Yes it doesn't work in OD, yes it doesn't work on some bosses, but it does work on a number of conditions in the scalable content.

    I never said it worked on every condition, if your going to quote me quote my statement in full.
    I also find it rich you attack my choice of words when:
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    Basically, they are offering a skill that ONLY works in underleveled content.
    Bells of Dale, Lv85, T2, boss 1. Group wide wound, lv 85 effect. Statement disproved. Ridiculous because of the sheer number of contradictions to your statement.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    "It works on every condition in the Brand new content." So Bells of Dale, Erebor, Smaug, Lonely mountain. If you dispute then please offer an example...
    I'm not going to argue... You are incorrect in your assumptions or statements, I'm not sure which. New content has 86 conditions. That is a fact that are free to disregard if you choose.

  13. #13
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    The best use for the new skill I've found so far is to get rid of the crippled effect when deeding wargs.

    Yup.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    "It works on every condition in the Brand new content." So Bells of Dale, Erebor, Smaug, Lonely mountain. If you dispute then please offer an example.
    It cannot remove the 1st boss's wound effects in Bells of Dale; this is a level 86 effect, and frequent enough that an extra removal would be useful.
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  15. #15
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    I agree that is should be raised to 90. I happened to be saying the same thing just a few days ago. I don't think raising the skill lvl to remove effects up to 90 would cause a great imbalance since it's only 1 effect at a time with a 15 second cool down AND an induction, which is hard for a healing mini to pull off when things are getting a little "busy" in the healing department. If it removed 3 from everyone in the group and had no CD then I would call OP. But when I have to stop healing to throw SoR just to remove one effect I think it would be balanced if the capp was 90.

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    I'm not going to argue... You are incorrect in your assumptions or statements, I'm not sure which. New content has 86 conditions. That is a fact that are free to disregard if you choose.
    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    It cannot remove the 1st boss's wound effects in Bells of Dale; this is a level 86 effect, and frequent enough that an extra removal would be useful.
    You had me doubting myself so I ran a BoD T2 lv85 run, and I am correct. All the conditions are lv85 and can be removed with SoR. I can only assume it was different in Beta given how strongly you seem to be objecting. In any case here are the screenshots I took. As you can see Mortal Wound is lv 85.



    I hope that put the matter to rest. I can't prove all the effects in the new Erebor instances are lv85 or lower, as there is no way to say definitively I have looked at all possible effects, but until I am presented with evidence differently I stand by my statement. (admittedly I am less confident about the conditions in BoE given theres a lot more demanding my attention there).

    And again I'm not saying that it shouldn't be raised to 90, or that it is overpowered. Just that I think it might have been a deliberate implementation.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00CloughRN View Post
    I can't prove all the effects in the new Erebor instances are lv85 or lower, as there is no way to say definitively I have looked at all possible effects
    LOL... you said "EVERY" condition in your post, at which point you then claimed "ridiculous" to any other possibility. Now you are saying you can't prove them all? Fact.... some of them are 86. That is all I've said and you keep trying to argue. A simple ignore should end this.

  18. #18
    sigh.

    I said it was ridiculous to say that "they are offering a skill that ONLY works in underleveled content".

    Not that any position other than mine is ridiculous. We can't both be right but we can both be wrong.

    I said "all new content has lv85 conditions, some scaled content have some lv85 or less conditions". I still hold to this statment until it can be shown otherwise. I have played all the Brand new content, except FttLM T2, and as of yet have not seen any evidence to falsify my hypothesis, I therefore feel I am justified extrapolation of my observations to an absolute statement. I have played a lot of the scaled content since the update, some is 85 and less, some is 86 or greater, it is not an absolute statement and as I have evidence for both situation (85 and less, 86 and greater) this part is irrefutable.

    You said "they are offering a skill that ONLY works in underleveled content". If this statement is true then the statement "It NEVER works in on level content" must also be true. Yet I have falsified this statement with screenshots from Bells of Dale. I called this statement ridiculous because to justify making this statement you need to have made many observations in multiple instance and never found a case which contradicts your statement, yet it is incredibly easy to find exceptions which falsify your statement indicating you have made only minimal observations, extrapolating from which I deem is a ridiculous assumption.

    The 3rd stance is where we are both wrong, and there are condition both below and above lv85 in both the Erebor and the scaled lv85 content. This is a perfectly logical conclusion, and one I am happy to revert to if I find or I'm presented with evidence to falsify my stance.

    You can never prove an absolute statement like "There are no lv86 conditions in the new Erebor content", only seek to falsify it, with each observation of a situation which supports the statement further reinforces its validity. My statement has not been falsified therefore legitimate. Yours is trivially falsified therefore ridiculous.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  19. #19
    can a blue name please reply to this and let us know if this is intended or if this will be fixed in the hotfix next week?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c214000000067ad6/signature.png]Tacito[/charsig]

  20. #20
    BTW, the level of removal matches the level of the player. I.e., if you are level 50, you can only remove stuff that's level 50. As such, it fits that at 85 you only remove stuff that's 85.

  21. #21
    Based on evidence of other condition removal skills of other classes as well as the minstrel's fear removal skill I highly doubt the reason for the same level as the character condition is anything to do with being overpowered. It's quite likely an oversight.

    While it's been quite a while since I leveled some classes, the only removal skill that comes to mind that worked only for on-level removals was the initial poison removal skill of the burglar. I was glad to get this skill on my burg initially until I saw it only worked for on-level poisons which was next to useless. It wasn't until I got the "upgraded" version that it would work for over level poisons as well.

    There's a very good reason the vast majority of removal skills work for higher level conditions. You aren't always fighting mobs that are your own level or under your level. The perfect example of this is Rohan itself. If you start Rohan by following the epic quest line it sticks you in the East Wall which is populated by level 77 and higher mobs. At most I have been level 76 by the time I hit this area and that has only been after I took a character through Langhold first and picked up the epic questline afterwards. The new removal skill is completely worthless for an area like that and it's by no means the only one. It's easily possible for every area of the game you go through to be higher than your own level. That is likely one of the main reasons all the skills except for the initial burg poison removal skill work for conditions above your own level and there is no reason whatsoever for the new skill not to do the same.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Based on evidence of other condition removal skills of other classes as well as the minstrel's fear removal skill I highly doubt the reason for the same level as the character condition is anything to do with being overpowered. It's quite likely an oversight.

    While it's been quite a while since I leveled some classes, the only removal skill that comes to mind that worked only for on-level removals was the initial poison removal skill of the burglar. I was glad to get this skill on my burg initially until I saw it only worked for on-level poisons which was next to useless. It wasn't until I got the "upgraded" version that it would work for over level poisons as well.

    There's a very good reason the vast majority of removal skills work for higher level conditions. You aren't always fighting mobs that are your own level or under your level. The perfect example of this is Rohan itself. If you start Rohan by following the epic quest line it sticks you in the East Wall which is populated by level 77 and higher mobs. At most I have been level 76 by the time I hit this area and that has only been after I took a character through Langhold first and picked up the epic questline afterwards. The new removal skill is completely worthless for an area like that and it's by no means the only one. It's easily possible for every area of the game you go through to be higher than your own level. That is likely one of the main reasons all the skills except for the initial burg poison removal skill work for conditions above your own level and there is no reason whatsoever for the new skill not to do the same.
    Looking at other classes' removal skills you can see that almost all of them only remove a specific type of effect(the LM one removes two), and thus are very situational. The Minstrel already has a skill to remove fear effects, I don't think it's unlikely that they consider having them being able to remove any type on top of that to be overpowered.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Looking at other classes' removal skills you can see that almost all of them only remove a specific type of effect(the LM one removes two), and thus are very situational. The Minstrel already has a skill to remove fear effects, I don't think it's unlikely that they consider having them being able to remove any type on top of that to be overpowered.
    Your argument makes no sense. If any removal is overpowered according to your definition it would be the LM wound/disease removal skill. It's on a lower cooldown, has no induction and removes up to three of two different kinds of effects and does it with effects higher than the level of the lore master. The new removal skill of the minstrel removes one single effect per person. One effect. I'll repeat again, it's one single effect. It's also an induction with a 15 second cooldown and a much shorter radius of effect than the lore master's skill.

    Also, don't even bother bringing the minstrel's remove fear skill into the discussion. A skill with a long induction, very short radius of effect, 45 second cooldown and only affects up to three people. The only class I can think of with a worse removal skill is the burg since it's on a 60 second cooldown without traits.

    By the way, I would like you to please explain exactly how the minstrel's new removal skill would be overpowered if it affected above level conditions like all other removal skills do. I want to know specific examples of how it would be overpowered. It's simply not enough to say it is overpowered or that it could be overpowered. You need to cite specific examples of where this would occur. Myself and others have pointed out how the new minstrel skill is underpowered and lacking compared to just about any other removal skill not to mention completely useless in the vast majority of current level 85 instance content due to the fact that most of it uses conditions of level 86 or higher. It's time for the people who think having the skill work on overlevel conditions like all other class removal skills is overpowered prove their argument. Keep in mind that the only level 85 instance content where the skill is actually usable is Erebor content. All of the other instances have overlevel conditions where the skill is completely useless.

  24. #24
    Well I said it before but I'll say it again, I don't think it would be overpowered, but I think there is argument that it is currently balanced. (Not that I strongly agree, I am largely on the fence on the matter)

    What I think is that a conscious decision was made to limit to on level, this introduces a vertical restriction dependent on level, rather than a horizontal restriction dependent on type.

    Anyway the clearest situation of where an increase could unbalance the metagame in my mind in the last boss of Helegrod: Spider. This typically made yellow line hunters very attractive, and as the yellow line was unfavoured requires considerable investment in that ability, the same can now be said for burglars. If the Mini skill worked to level+5, this would usurp something that is the cornerstone of an other classes trait-line for no cost.
    “All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Your argument makes no sense. If any removal is overpowered according to your definition it would be the LM wound/disease removal skill. It's on a lower cooldown, has no induction and removes up to three of two different kinds of effects and does it with effects higher than the level of the lore master. The new removal skill of the minstrel removes one single effect per person. One effect. I'll repeat again, it's one single effect. It's also an induction with a 15 second cooldown and a much shorter radius of effect than the lore master's skill.

    Also, don't even bother bringing the minstrel's remove fear skill into the discussion. A skill with a long induction, very short radius of effect, 45 second cooldown and only affects up to three people. The only class I can think of with a worse removal skill is the burg since it's on a 60 second cooldown without traits.

    By the way, I would like you to please explain exactly how the minstrel's new removal skill would be overpowered if it affected above level conditions like all other removal skills do. I want to know specific examples of how it would be overpowered. It's simply not enough to say it is overpowered or that it could be overpowered. You need to cite specific examples of where this would occur. Myself and others have pointed out how the new minstrel skill is underpowered and lacking compared to just about any other removal skill not to mention completely useless in the vast majority of current level 85 instance content due to the fact that most of it uses conditions of level 86 or higher. It's time for the people who think having the skill work on overlevel conditions like all other class removal skills is overpowered prove their argument. Keep in mind that the only level 85 instance content where the skill is actually usable is Erebor content. All of the other instances have overlevel conditions where the skill is completely useless.
    It makes complete sense. The Lore-Master has support as it's primary role. Removing negative effects would come under that umbrella, and is logical that it would perform noticeably better than other classes. The Minstrel on the other hand is a primary healing class, and to have it provide better effect removals than it would be encroaching into its territory.

    As for the LM removal skill, it doesn't even have an AoE effect unless traited, so the radius part of your argument is flawed. Both of the Minstrel's removal skills are AOE without requiring a trait on the other hand.

    And yes, I WILL bring the fear removal skill into the equation, because it's there and serves a purpose, and you trying to nudge it out of the picture to shore up your argument is poor form. Yes, the weaknesses you point out are there, but it also provides a fear resistance buff afteraffect which you conveniently neglected to mention. The LM skill does not(anymore).

    As far as providing examples, when I say it would be overpowered I mean in relation to the abilities of other classes. The Minstrel is already an immensely powerful class, with a huge amount of utility in group content. Trying to give them the best removal skills in the game on top of that is going too far, IMO(The RK could also compete for this assuming theirs gets buffed too).

    On a final note, I will say that I am not opposed to increasing the affecting level on principle, just not increasing the level and leaving the rest of the skill in its current format. 15s is not a lot of time, were it bumped up to 25-30 seconds then maybe I would support the change.

 

 
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