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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    You say only 3-4 raging blades per wave, but that easily amounts to 0.5-1% morale on the boss (perhaps even more?) if there's some crits in between. Add in the "mediocre hits" from blade-wall, rend etc. and morale management becomes extremely painful IMO.

    The seemingly random spawnpoint of the adds does not make it any easier.

    Also, big grats to The Mellowship!
    I guess he didn't suggest AoE'ing the adds down near the boss. He was asking if the adds couldn't be killed in about the same time, if they were just single target focussed by more glass-cannon type Champs - there would be no issue with the boss morale management this way.
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
    Twisterhasen - Gwaihir [DE]

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    I guess he didn't suggest AoE'ing the adds down near the boss. He was asking if the adds couldn't be killed in about the same time, if they were just single target focussed by more glass-cannon type Champs - there would be no issue with the boss morale management this way.
    Well he specifically suggests the 3-4 raging blades per wave, and I'd say that's enough to make the morale management go rather badly unless you're really lucky.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Well he specifically suggests the 3-4 raging blades per wave, and I'd say that's enough to make the morale management go rather badly unless you're really lucky.
    To clarify things, I think you got his question wrong.

    The question was whether having 2 low-DPS (more tankish) AoE-Champs would really do more overall damage in the allotted time while only hitting up to three targets (hence not even using AoE at its fullest potential as there are not enough targets to do so), when there is only time to dish out like 3-4 Raging Blades (the single highest AoE DPS skill), as opposed to single target traited high DPS glass cannon Champs that just take care of the adds one after the other (while they are being tanked by the guardians). You also have to consider that other DPS classes probably have to hold back on the adds as low DPS AoE champs tend to lose aggro earlier than Guardians.

    So the question remains: Does AoE'ing the adds with tankish Champs really kill the adds faster than disposing off the adds one after the other with focussed high ST DPS?
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
    Twisterhasen - Gwaihir [DE]

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    To clarify things, I think you got his question wrong.

    The question was whether having 2 low-DPS (more tankish) AoE-Champs would really do more overall damage in the allotted time while only hitting up to three targets (hence not even using AoE at its fullest potential as there are not enough targets to do so), when there is only time to dish out like 3-4 Raging Blades (the single highest AoE DPS skill), as opposed to single target traited high DPS glass cannon Champs that just take care of the adds one after the other (while they are being tanked by the guardians). You also have to consider that other DPS classes probably have to hold back on the adds as low DPS AoE champs tend to lose aggro earlier than Guardians.

    So the question remains: Does AoE'ing the adds with tankish Champs really kill the adds faster than disposing off the adds one after the other with focussed high ST DPS?
    Glass cannon build has no place at this fight, because crits from distributed can one shot low morale champ. There is noone else dpsing adds at our tactics. Burg is dealing with one troll... hunter with another... champs + captains clearing adds. Simple as that.
    [IMG]http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7323/0hn4.png[/IMG]

    [COLOR=#008000]85 lvl alts: champion, guard, captain, warden, burg, minnie, RK, LM[/COLOR]

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    To clarify things, I think you got his question wrong.

    The question was whether having 2 low-DPS (more tankish) AoE-Champs would really do more overall damage in the allotted time while only hitting up to three targets (hence not even using AoE at its fullest potential as there are not enough targets to do so), when there is only time to dish out like 3-4 Raging Blades (the single highest AoE DPS skill), as opposed to single target traited high DPS glass cannon Champs that just take care of the adds one after the other (while they are being tanked by the guardians). You also have to consider that other DPS classes probably have to hold back on the adds as low DPS AoE champs tend to lose aggro earlier than Guardians.

    So the question remains: Does AoE'ing the adds with tankish Champs really kill the adds faster than disposing off the adds one after the other with focussed high ST DPS?
    I think with some more practice (though I'm not sure we'll bother given the loot) a glass cannon build would probably be manageable even with the tactic we were using, but I do think you greatly overestimate how much damage you gain from a pure glass cannon build.

    With my standard DPS build (which, admittedly, is not 100% glass cannon - I posted both builds in the champ post-U10 build thread) I have 130% physical mastery unbuffed (I don't slot Vicious Strikes, so I use all crit relics). With the build I used for BfE, I drop down to 114.9% whilst staying at crit cap when buffed. I'm going to have at least another 30% all the time (20% CBR + 5% DP/Store buff + 5% War-Cry), so that makes 160% vs 144.9%. In terms of actual damage, that's around 6%. Losing 6% damage does not make for a low DPS champ.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    So the question remains: Does AoE'ing the adds with tankish Champs really kill the adds faster than disposing off the adds one after the other with focussed high ST DPS?
    Kinnies to the rescue!

    We didn't really use tankish champs, only that they had somewhat more morale and mitigation than the glass-canon build for the reasons Tarenius explained.

    As for going glass-canon and have guardians tank I would say it is a very risky move. The AoE of the Warrior really destroys you if you don't have some decent mitigation, so if a guardians grabs aggro and the Warrior AoE's near a Burglar or glass-canon Champ, there's a pretty good chance a death or two is incoming. I'm not sure if you can completely control where they AoE as they seem to stop in certain positions and chop stuff in front of them, so I would not recommend that tactic. Also, the risk of the guardians not getting aggro on all mobs (they are kinda busy tanking a mean troll after all, resists can happen etc.) can make stuff go bad very fast.

    To be honest, I'm not even sure if your question is really relevant - if the two champs (and EPIC captains :P) can handle the mobs within 30 seconds and survive, the gain from doing it faster is neglible IMO, and I have a hard time seeing how it would not put extra stress on the tanks and perhaps also the Burglar if you use one.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galborion View Post
    Glass cannon build has no place at this fight, because crits from distributed can one shot low morale champ. There is noone else dpsing adds at our tactics. Burg is dealing with one troll... hunter with another... champs + captains clearing adds. Simple as that.
    No no no! don't share!

    Actually i'll just try not to read anymore.

    i'm sure a lot of people want you to but I liked seeing your class setup from the screenshots and trying to figure out a raid strategy from there, even possibly using different classes.

    Also congratulations to The Mellowship. Well done!
    105 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  8. #133
    I don't think it was a mystery...in a kin of no champs, we had 3 people level up their champs and start gearing out after a single night of working on the t2c mechanics :P It was an obvious conclusion for handling the reinforcements, which is really the only part of this fight that makes it challenging.
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  9. #134
    Ramble On Battle for Erebor T2CM
    Server First and NA First
    We had built on a strat and stuck with it. As you can see, we have no Champs and no burg.



    Last 25% of the fight, enjoy..
    Last edited by Jamesm429; Mar 27 2013 at 11:06 PM.

  10. #135
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    Gratz guys. Good to see different tactics for this fight
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    [COLOR=#008000]85 lvl alts: champion, guard, captain, warden, burg, minnie, RK, LM[/COLOR]

  11. #136
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    Really nice to see a WDN in that setup and zero champs, and i loved the chatter as you did it, very nice work and gratz :-D
    Snowbourn - Commander Shakbasher - Lieutenant Glurf

    Warriors of The Great Eye

  12. #137
    Gratz
    Nice to see Youre done this without a champ ... but it had to be harder
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  13. #138
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    Gz Ramble on from Ascension and very nice to see some other tactics,
    .
    EN Makadam || Vraelper
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  14. #139
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    Well played Ramble On, glad to see a different working strat.
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    Lvl 85 Hunter - Lvl 85 Champion - L 65 Captain

  15. #140
    Thank you very much guys. Its nice to get such positive feed back for our strat.

  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Gattsu_EU View Post
    Once you find a good tactic for this fight there isn't much RNG in it so please don't come here and try to make it out to be all luck, because it wasn't.
    You misinterpreted. I'm talking about trying to gear oneself with specific items that you have a chance to never get because of rng. I don't know where that came from. I was not trying to suggest it can be completed because everything fell into place for you. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Thank you very much guys. Its nice to get such positive feed back for our strat.
    A good strat! I have tried to talk with others about trying this method before because wardens can't handle the troll too well alone with their mit caps. I like it.
    Last edited by xDementedx; Mar 28 2013 at 05:54 PM.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by xDementedx View Post
    You misinterpreted. I'm talking about trying to gear oneself with specific items that you have a chance to never get because of rng. I don't know where that came from. I was not trying to suggest it can be completed because everything fell into place for you. :P
    Ops, I indeed misinterpreted it and when I re-read it I see your point

  18. #143
    A good strat! I have tried to talk with others about trying this method before because wardens can't handle the troll too well alone with their mit caps. I like it.
    Oh, I must disagree! We finally spent a night working on this last night with my warden tanking one of the trolls. Not only were his total avoidances over 78% for one of our 25 minute fights (total taken per second was less than the guardian), but he also healed over 1600 morale per second over that entire duration (A different attempt was like 73% avoids 1800 HPS). He was certainly not a liability. I honestly feel like 2 good wardens on the trolls would be even better than 2 good guards. The main thing a guard brings to the table in this t2c is giving you a LITTLE more breathing room if you get a 2-3% separation during the blood rage buff or something, but those are situations that you won't run into very often as your group gets practice with this. Wardens are definitely okay with a 200% buff on the trolls though. I think wardens are in an amazingly OP place right now. Just have to be brave enough to try using them :P

    Completely unrelated, I also feel like this fight is not quite as much of a challenge as it first appeared on paper. It is certainly no Saruman T2C, probably because as someone said before there really isn't much luck at play here. If you can control the adds, and your healers can heal through the last 40% of the fight, and you have a good method for keeping the damage buffs managable, there really isn't anything to surprise you.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    Completely unrelated, I also feel like this fight is not quite as much of a challenge as it first appeared on paper. It is certainly no Saruman T2C, probably because as someone said before there really isn't much luck at play here. If you can control the adds, and your healers can heal through the last 40% of the fight, and you have a good method for keeping the damage buffs managable, there really isn't anything to surprise you.
    really? I personnaly like it more than other challanges. although as long as you make it, it really is a big tactics raid. in BfE T2cm there really is something for everyone and everyone really need to be top geared for it. while T2cm smaug is all about the tactics, you don't really need the best of the best gear. on tank I feel like I could go afk sometimes :/ but if I screw up with adds/valves it can be a fail.

    we have to see how what flight really plays like unbugged. it looks like the more dps focused one (can see by challange) while tanks will really need to be on there game to aggro enough and pull the right time and right stuff. all asumeing lol

    anyway... I really wanted to reply to say thx for saying wardens tank it fine, give me hope xD out T2cm runs going ok tbh, just still learning
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  20. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    Oh, I must disagree! We finally spent a night working on this last night with my warden tanking one of the trolls. Not only were his total avoidances over 78% for one of our 25 minute fights (total taken per second was less than the guardian), but he also healed over 1600 morale per second over that entire duration (A different attempt was like 73% avoids 1800 HPS). He was certainly not a liability. I honestly feel like 2 good wardens on the trolls would be even better than 2 good guards. The main thing a guard brings to the table in this t2c is giving you a LITTLE more breathing room if you get a 2-3% separation during the blood rage buff or something, but those are situations that you won't run into very often as your group gets practice with this. Wardens are definitely okay with a 200% buff on the trolls though. I think wardens are in an amazingly OP place right now. Just have to be brave enough to try using them :P
    Agree with this point. We had a wipe on a T2 practice run (we've still only been in here about 3 times to actually work on strat for challenge :/ ) where I went splat, but this was because we had a 3% morale diff, on top of crossing a 5% damage threshold. While I don't know what our Guards were requiring for heals-per-second to stay up, what I was getting from healers was in no way a stretch for them at all, and spike damage wasn't really a problem until our dps became unbalanced (admittedly this is an advantage for guards, since pledge is immediate, while a warden could be 2-shotted waiting on the DC animation, even if they hit it the moment they saw all the buffs stack).
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellery01 View Post
    Completely unrelated, I also feel like this fight is not quite as much of a challenge as it first appeared on paper. It is certainly no Saruman T2C, probably because as someone said before there really isn't much luck at play here. If you can control the adds, and your healers can heal through the last 40% of the fight, and you have a good method for keeping the damage buffs managable, there really isn't anything to surprise you.
    With Saruman T2C you had a fairly high chance of failing even once you had the strategy down, but that was pretty much entirely due to the luck factor involved in that fight (both tanks getting the bubble, bad phases in the last wave, massive devastate on a squishy etc.). In my opinion luck having such a huge impact on the outcome of a fight is not a good thing - Shadow T2C (at least while we were learning the fight) was the perfect example of a fight that punished mistakes but did not involve much luck, and BfE T2C is also pretty good in that respect.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by xDementedx View Post
    A good strat! I have tried to talk with others about trying this method before because wardens can't handle the troll too well alone with their mit caps. I like it.
    I can't say for certain, but I really can't see wardens being a particularly big liability for t2c on the trolls with a well managed group. I've completed t2 tanking one of the trolls on my warden and don't recall ever dipping below 50% morale, and at no point felt that I needed Defiant challenge (just used it at the very end of the fight to make sure we couldn't wipe unexpectedly), nor did my never surrender proc during the fight. (Always toss it up at the start of the fight as a safety measure since the cooldown resets anyways when bosses are triggered.) I'll give a better idea of how I feel tanking it when our kin starts working more on attempting to work on our t2c strategy.

    P.S. It's nice to see that two of our considered plans for managing reinforcement adds have been successfully used. Big grats to mellowship, ramble and ascension for your BfE t2c completions.

    As an aside, Aftermath of Riddermark have completed BfE t2, and Fires of Smaug t2c


    Eilinel, Bejaren- 85 Hunters
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    Ilenwyn-85 Mini
    Gerlendad- 85 Burg

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenilie View Post
    I can't say for certain, but I really can't see wardens being a particularly big liability for t2c on the trolls with a well managed group.
    I was speaking from a mathematical viewpoint, 70% is better than 50% and they are just going to mitigate a distributed better. My group also has had a warden complete t2 and how the warden or healer gets through that is up to the group to figure out. I have no question about captains or champs being able to do this either. I don't know why people were assuming I was saying "wardens can't do this so don't put them on a troll."
    Last edited by xDementedx; Mar 29 2013 at 12:56 PM.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by xDementedx View Post
    I was speaking from a mathematical viewpoint, 70% is better than 50% and they are just going to mitigate a distributed better. My group also has had a warden complete t2 and how the warden or healer gets through that is up to the group to figure out. I have no question about captains or champs being able to do this either. I don't know why people were assuming I was saying "wardens can't do this so don't put them on a troll."
    from a mathamatical point of veiw, your missing out some figures then. avoidence being as high as 60/65% from many of the big hits (high melee, arc) which can hit for 15k at times. a same build warden as guard should have about 1.6k lead over a guard on critical defense with a gambit/stance/traits. but would need to look into that tbh. also wardens have crit immunity still for 10s every 45s, which could potentially stop multiple crits downing him quick. added with self heals (which imo counter inferno) warden should be fine? I'd say a little more luck based than a guard with relying on avoidence and crit immunity, so if all goes wrong...

    I have no idea about distributed though, which is a huge killer in our trys. would be grand if the masters of T2cm would say if they honestly think it's bugged or we're missing a step
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  25. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    from a mathamatical point of veiw, your missing out some figures then. avoidence being as high as 60/65% from many of the big hits (high melee, arc) which can hit for 15k at times. a same build warden as guard should have about 1.6k lead over a guard on critical defense with a gambit/stance/traits. but would need to look into that tbh. also wardens have crit immunity still for 10s every 45s, which could potentially stop multiple crits downing him quick. added with self heals (which imo counter inferno) warden should be fine? I'd say a little more luck based than a guard with relying on avoidence and crit immunity, so if all goes wrong...

    I have no idea about distributed though, which is a huge killer in our trys. would be grand if the masters of T2cm would say if they honestly think it's bugged or we're missing a step
    It is not bugged. It is a distributed attack of 12m.

 

 
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