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  1. #1
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    Feasibility of HoH

    I was running through the Battle of Erebor, and the leader told me to retrait in HoH (due to Inferno). I got into a small discussion with somebody else about the potency of our healing in LtC vs. HoH. Now, this is of course nothing new, the eternal discussion between LtC and HoH, however, I am wondering what the theorycrafters here think of the current setup.

    Now, one of the discussion points was the total effectiveness of the group and our own effectiveness. Now as far as I know, traiting HoH has no effect on the strength of To Arms (song brother) for your song brother (it stays 25% either way), so it's only up to our own effectiveness. Now, I have Relentless Optimism and Now For Wrath equipped alongside LtC traits. If I would trait blue, I would add Inspire, and Fear No Darkness (and some other trait that has no effect on group healing). From HoH I would get a stronger VS, and 10% to the other healing skills. Because of HoH, I would also get a 25s extra 15% extra healing from To Arms (15% extra because I would already have 10% extra healing from Song Brother with Fellowship Brother in LtC).

    So, in theory I would be able to heal more. However, I would lose access to SL, and with a high crit, RC. With a 6s CD on RC, I feel that would cripple me a lot. Also I'd have to lean on VS, which can only be used every 1.5 minutes. Hypothetically speaking, you could use WoC when it's on CD, but I don't feel that would really mean the difference between a defeat and a win (if it's only the tank being hit, it's generally going well).

    So, in short now, does anybody know whether it is really more effective to trait HoH for healing? Isn't VS less reliable in general, because it can only be relied on when it's off its long CD? Also, isn't it likely that the little bit of extra healing that we gain from HoH not going to matter in most of the situations? Thanks in advance for any answers!

  2. #2
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    Valiant Strike in HoH gets a -30 reduction to cooldown, bringing it to a minute. Additionally, utilizing the 4 Hytbold Healer set (and assuming you get a Rallying Cry once every ~30 seconds) you can essentially have the HoT up the entire fight.

    Personally I'm a big fan of Valiant Strike and before the update, I would usually choose the VS armour over the Perseverance set since I felt I got more heals out of it, especially when traited blue. Luckily, now I don't have to make that choice.

    That got a little off topic though. My personal opinion is that it's usually safer to trait HoH when dealing with tough or new content. I personally went blue the only time I did that raid you mentioned, just because I figure better safe that sorry. I can usually pump out plenty of RCs even blueline traited. However, if you're more comfortable running red-line in order to pump out the heals, do that. Nobody knows how to play your captain better than you, and captain is one of the few classes that doesn't have a 'right' or 'wrong' build. (Unless you don't have the Rallying Cry CD legacy. Then you're just an idiot.) My personal recommendation though? At least run 4 Hytbold/2 Pers, no matter what traitline you use.
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  3. #3
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    My feeling about LtC vs. HoH since Rohan is that the Improved Valiant Strike puts HoH massively ahead.

    Previously, LtC and HoH got close to equal (though HoH always healed more, it's just that LtC healed almost as much with much more DPS) because LtC was generating so many more defeat events for Rallying Cry. RC still has the bigger initial heal of the two skills, but VS always had a bigger HoT. The real difference was the cooldown. RC has a 15 or 6 second cooldown, VS used to have a 1:30 cooldown in HoH.

    This is where the improved version comes in. Before, if you used VS every time, you could maintain only a ~33% "duty cycle" on the HoT. With the improved version, you can maintain a 50% duty cycle. Or, if you have Hytbold Healer armour and expect to have at least one defeat event per 30 seconds (not unreasonable at all), you can have an almost 100% duty cycle on the VS HoT. 300 Morale per second, every second, is nothing to sneeze at.

    Keep in mind, too, that HoH is by far going to put out more single-target healing as well. HoH Words of Courage has close to a 1k initial heal. And also keep in mind that the defeat events you do get will pump out a stronger version of Rallying Cry.

    For Inferno, until everybody is fully geared, I'd definitely trait HoH and not think twice about it. It's not a DPS race, and you do need that extra healing at the end.

    For just about everything else, though, LtC is at least as good, if not a little better.
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  4. #4
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    I would not at all be surprised if the following were true:

    HoH + 4 Hytbold Healer + 2 Perserverance + Healing Emblem = Main Healer

    For BoE, I found that if the group is strong enough, the additional DPS to take down the bosses from LtC, with the additional RC procs (using almost the same gearing, but with a Vocal Healing + SL legacy emblem) worked just as well. Granted, that was on T1.
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  5. #5
    LtC has a chance to better (yes, only a chance) when nothing is dying or can be AOEd.

    When defeat events are flying around you do not need the extra chance to get them if you have a PA weapon in that HoH setup.
    Well, some totally crazy setup like LtC pers+hele+dagor comes to mind. i doubt it would be good but will try it sometime in a skirm or Flight just for fun.

    So, as new instances go: for Bells, Flight and most likely Smaug LtC is definetelly not best. In BfE it is debatable if you can mix close to 30% crit with decent defences.
    I love LtC but lately in more challenging content it just does not do better than HoH or mix.

    In Battle of Erebor i currently go HoH and when my laptop is cool i eliminate all doubt to trait like that with macroing OD CotW.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pero_the_Cappy View Post
    So, as new instances go: [...] Flight [...] LtC is definetelly not best.
    This one I'm not sure on, at least for T1. It's a pretty easy instance.
    On one hand, defeat responses are flying everywhere with tons of mobs to hit and the fact that it's essentially one big trash pull.
    On the other hand, that many defeat responses makes it less important to trait red if you're traiting for higher crits. If you're traiting to help with the DPS (which may or may not actually be "helping", that's a discussion for a different time) it might not be a bad idea.

    And again, that's all T1. For T2, definitely HoH until we all get some better gear at least.
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  7. #7
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    LtC got no chance versus HoH if you're using the right armor sets. I was doing Battle of Erebor t1 (yes, farm) with Catapults and Inferno. As the healer in my fellow was rubbish, I traited HoH and did almost 5000HPS throughout the fight - though with a herald getting some of those heals.
    That was without the Fornost cloak and with a 85 2nd age emblem and no VS healing legacy, so with better gear there's potential of doing much more healing in HoH.

  8. #8
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    Before I started swapping to 4-CotW/2-Mene for VS, I might've argued that LtC could produce more AoE heals in defeat-response lean situations, especially those with multiple targets (e.g. Saruman). Real specific circumstances there. Sans-CotW, I'd still probably say LtC > HoH in terms of AoE heals in BfE. Being able to chain VSs together with HoH & 4-HHealer/2-Pers isn't particularly impressive next to being able to chain slightly smaller VSs together with more RCs in LtC with 4-HHealer/2-Pers; 100% duty cycle is possible but not guaranteed in both builds,

    But man swapping to 4-CotW when hitting VS is really changing the equation for me. And tacking 2-Mene on there totally negates the loss of heals from the 4-CotW stats when using VS (compared to my base armor of 4-HHealer/2-Pers anyway). If you trait HoH, use 4-HHealer/2-Pers, or hell 2-Hele, for your RCs and then use 4-CotW/2-Mene for the VSs, that's some synergy. Tack on an LM pet and your own pet like Elrantiri, and that's literally a VS and an RC every 6 seconds. Chainsaw overheals. Chainsaw Rock-will-be-sad-panda-then-mad-panda-and-nerf-swapping overheals.

    But I still go LtC for a lot of stuff. I ask myself: "Is even more healing helpful? Is extra damage harmful?" Most of the time it's no and yes. For BfE with Blood-whatever mechanics set, I think it might be yes and no.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Mar 11 2013 at 10:36 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    But I still go LtC for a lot of stuff. I ask myself: "Is even more healing helpful? Is extra damage harmful?" Most of the time it's no and yes. For BfE with Blood-whatever mechanics set, I think it might be yes and no.
    Indeed - and I wouldn't ignore the 'fact' that HoH VS+RC cycling/chainsawing gets quite boring very fast, so I only use it when I know I need to heal a whole lot.

    I wonder how easy Flight to the Mountain T2 will become if you go with 4 Captains (2 in each fellow) doing HoH VS+RC cycle. While surely not errorproof, the amount of overheal should make the puddles and archer attacks a lot easier to handle.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Mar 12 2013 at 04:04 AM.

  10. #10

    Off topic-crit and skill rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Valiant Strike in HoH gets a -30 reduction to cooldown, bringing it to a minute. Additionally, utilizing the 4 Hytbold Healer set (and assuming you get a Rallying Cry once every ~30 seconds) you can essentially have the HoT up the entire fight.

    Personally I'm a big fan of Valiant Strike and before the update, I would usually choose the VS armour over the Perseverance set since I felt I got more heals out of it, especially when traited blue. Luckily, now I don't have to make that choice.

    My personal recommendation though? At least run 4 Hytbold/2 Pers, no matter what traitline you use.[/SIZE]
    First, which armour is the Perseverance set?

    Second, how do you get a crit every 30 seconds? In BfE I was getting one per troll. Now with the crit ring I get 3-4 crits for the entire 3.5 min run. If I got a crit every 30 seconds it would be 7 total instead of 3-4. I really want to bridge that gap, so much so I am thinking of getting the vitality crit ring and am buying fate tomes off the AH.

    Third, what is your skill rotation with VS? Also I assume that RC has to be up to get the reduced cooldown. Currently I have VS on an off emblem with melee healing and Strength of Will. I generally equip it going into the fight use both skills then move to my main emblem. If RS has to be up then I have to totally change my skill rotation and can't use VS till I get a crit.

    Any help/advice is appreciated.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    First, which armour is the Perseverance set?

    Second, how do you get a crit every 30 seconds? In BfE I was getting one per troll. Now with the crit ring I get 3-4 crits for the entire 3.5 min run. If I got a crit every 30 seconds it would be 7 total instead of 3-4. I really want to bridge that gap, so much so I am thinking of getting the vitality crit ring and am buying fate tomes off the AH.
    .
    Perseverance is the moors healing set. 2 pieces takes 20% off of defeat event cooldowns.

    I agree that seems high. I'm not as high crit as some capts, but I usually have (by memory) maybe 21-22% when I'm HOH. With 4 PA/min, hard to get high. You can jack it up some with Time of Need, Battle Tonics, Mini enabling your defeat events, etc. But I'd say 3-4 RC is about right. If I get a defeat event and VS is available, I always use VS before RC to get the HOT going and the benefits.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    First, which armour is the Perseverance set?

    Second, how do you get a crit every 30 seconds? In BfE I was getting one per troll. Now with the crit ring I get 3-4 crits for the entire 3.5 min run. If I got a crit every 30 seconds it would be 7 total instead of 3-4. I really want to bridge that gap, so much so I am thinking of getting the vitality crit ring and am buying fate tomes off the AH.

    Third, what is your skill rotation with VS? Also I assume that RC has to be up to get the reduced cooldown. Currently I have VS on an off emblem with melee healing and Strength of Will. I generally equip it going into the fight use both skills then move to my main emblem. If RS has to be up then I have to totally change my skill rotation and can't use VS till I get a crit.

    Any help/advice is appreciated.
    Delgon covered a few things pretty well but I'm just gonna answer anyway. Like he said, Perseverance is the Moors set with 20% off the CD on defeat responses. You could also sub in the Helegrod armour instead (where you will lose stats, but not as badly as you may think).

    I have my crit almost capped when in raids. Using the Healer set + Perseverance I have roughly 13k crit. Don't know what the percentage on that is, but the cap is 13,400, so it's close to 25%. I also have minis that toss me whatever skill it is that enables defeat responses, and I have the Battle States legacy on my sword that lets me save the Defeat Response for a significantly longer time to make sure I get as much out of VS before I hit RC and refresh it. Time of Need and Battle Tonics do also help if you're not getting the needed crits, but I usually don't need them. (I'm lucky, I guess.) Occasionally if we need it we'll also have the RK throw Rune-sign of Storm on myself or the other captain. For anyone with near-capped crit, that will boost your crit to 29% in HoH. (34% crit in LtC, which is really fun.)

    Rotation's pretty simple. I have a 5 major emblem so every healing legacy is on my main emblem. I hit Valiant Strike when I run in and then hit an immediate Rallying Cry (whatever minis do to enable that, woo). I then just go to town trying to pop defeat responses for more Rallying Cries, which then of course lower the cooldown on VS. If VS is close to coming off cooldown, I'll save the RC until I hit Valiant Strike again.

    For the record, our raid group has T1 on superfarm at this point, so for T1 I trait reds and go 4 Command/2 Perseverance now. (Our run time is between 2:00 and 2:40, depending on how many burgs we have in the group.) For our T2 run and for any PUGs that I run with, I go back to the HoH 4 HHealer/2 Perseverance setup.
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  13. #13

    Thanks to both of you for a response.

    I knew when I asked I should know which armour that is, and indeed I have the gloves in my bags. *cringe* I still need to earn the 4000 comms for the next piece though so I will probably get the Helegrod armour in the meantime. I did go and pick up the Hytbold healing set, and tried it out. I love seeing the cooldown pop forward when I hit RC.

    The crit I will keep toying with, I know there are a few pieces of jewelry and capes that have a high amount of fate on them that might help...and maybe some fate food. I'm working on collecting fate tomes as well, but refuse to pay sky high prices for them.

    With ROI I wanted to just have one emblem and it took 7 tried just to get 4 majors (2nd age). When I got my first age and it identified as 3 majors I shrugged and went back to two emblems. I have the worst luck.

    Thanks for the feedback, I love having some new ideas to explore.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    With ROI I wanted to just have one emblem and it took 7 tried just to get 4 majors (2nd age). When I got my first age and it identified as 3 majors I shrugged and went back to two emblems. I have the worst luck.
    I'd be OK with a 3 major first age myself. I'd add a 4th major with a crystal, and deal. Those crystals are pretty expensive for TPs, but they also drop in game pretty frequently in BoE. Not as good as 5 majors of course, but SOW (if you don't swap), vocal heals, RC cooldown, RC heals isn't so bad either. If you do swap for SOW, you can substitute melee heals for it and good to go...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    The crit I will keep toying with, I know there are a few pieces of jewelry and capes that have a high amount of fate on them that might help...and maybe some fate food. I'm working on collecting fate tomes as well, but refuse to pay sky high prices for them.
    It's a lot more efficient to go for crit by finding raw amounts, as opposed to fate. (Fate is a good stat to have, but most of mine comes from my LIs.) There's a nice earring from Bells of Dale and a comparable one from BG (I believe it drops from Durchest). Bangle of Echoing Battle from Moria skirms is a good bracelet. Pocket is another great source of crit, either the Flask from Sambrog or the Journal from Dungeons. Assuming you fill those five slots with any combination of those items, that's over 3500 crit. (768 per earring, 768 raw crit plus 75 from agility on each Bangle, and either 644 or 768 for your pocket item, depending on which item you go with.) There are other nice pieces out there too, I just don't know what all of them are.

    I personally have one earring from Bells, one from Durchest, a Bangle of Echoing Battle and a 75 bracelet from Orthanc with a lot of crit, and the Journal from Dungeons.

    Lots of relics have a good amount of crit too. I'm a fan of the new True Great River relic with 90 ICPR, 606 crit, and 30 fate.
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  16. #16
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    What earring gives more tactical mastery than the limlight one (~1932)?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    What earring gives more tactical mastery than the limlight one (~1932)?
    It's tough to say, since all of the loot isn't properly sorted yet. However, I've seen at least two Will earrings with 150 Will and 768 tac mastery, one agi earring with 150 agility and 768 physical mastery, and one might earring with 150 might and 768(?) physical mastery. I'm betting there's at least one earring out there with 150might/768 tac mastery.

    Though as you can probably tell, I prefer to use my earrings for crit personally, so if I find one I probably won't be using it.
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  18. #18
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    I went into Erebor (T1, PUG) traited HoH for the first time yesterday and would like to share some observations and thoughts.

    During the fight, I was feeling more out of control than usual. In the inferno phase, the group heals were specifically lacking and several dps classes went down in the process. Also, in some cases the tank dropped extremely fast on the first troll and even with activating song-brother's 25% outgoing healing bonus, me and the healer (ministrel) could not save him, so I had to use In Harms Way earlier than I would like.

    In the aftermath, I thought about it for a while and re-read this thread. There were some excellent arguments already brought forward by other fellow captains, so I want to try to only add additional reasons for why LtC might perform rather well in this specific encounter:
    - The additional RCs do lower the cooldown of VS with the Hytbold Healer 4-set bonus further. This might counter the -30s cooldown lost from not going HoH somewhat, though more unreliable (running with about 25% crit myself).
    - Additional defeat events that need not be used for a group heal in the current moment and might go wasted as overheal can be put into WC for additional dps, which in turn contributes to additional group healing via Revealing Mark for a longer time.

    On the other hand, going HoH does give us more freedom to slot things like Blood of the Dunedain, which makes our resurrects more likely to not get the poor fellow who just died before to die again.

    Disclaimer:
    I think the minnie in my group was performing rather bad, since in the instances when the tank went down, I was ending up with the aggro (after some champs got one-shotted, of course). So my frustration might be somewhat coincidental.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curulanthir View Post

    On the other hand, going HoH does give us more freedom to slot things like Blood of the Dunedain, which makes our resurrects more likely to not get the poor fellow who just died before to die again.

    .
    Yes, I agree that trait is extremely useful in that fight. Cry of vengeance is almost pointless on that boss without it, because inferno just kills them again as soon as they get back up so it basically has the only negative effect of increasing someone's repair bill. So I wouldn't even bother using that ability on that fight unless that trait is equipped.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Yes, I agree that trait is extremely useful in that fight. Cry of vengeance is almost pointless on that boss without it, because inferno just kills them again as soon as they get back up so it basically has the only negative effect of increasing someone's repair bill. So I wouldn't even bother using that ability on that fight unless that trait is equipped.
    Inferno immediately killing them is exactly why I use it on them in the first place.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Inferno immediately killing them is exactly why I use it on them in the first place.

    I might be a terrible person.
    lol...

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Inferno immediately killing them is exactly why I use it on them in the first place.

    I might be a terrible person.
    hmmm
    You bring up a good point i never realized...

    Perhaps the TRUE purpose of Cry of Vengeance is actually as a Troll skill!
    This would explain why it still has such a long cooldown.
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  23. #23
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    All joking aside, it is entirely possible to Cry of Vengeance rez someone during the inferno. (At least on Tier 1, I haven't tried it on T2). Just make sure to target the person coming up, and get ready to dump some heals into them. Also, make sure you don't bring them up in catapult range or anything like that.

    While I'm here and off topic anyway, what are opinions on using Motivating Speech before the Erebor fight? A raid leader I encountered the other day forbid his captains from giving Motivating Speech, arguing that the inferno ticks away based on a percentage of max morale, and so it was better to avoid using skills like MS and the Hope Banner. Now, seeing that I use the tognir set to buff for that +600 Tact mitigation anyway, I felt his logic might have been a little unsound, but he was the raid leader so I went along with it anyway.
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  24. #24
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    The situation OP describes is why I'm always anonymous on my Captain. In a T1 BfE PUG, no leader should be pretending to know how to play Captain.

    Leader: Hey Captain, will you trait HoH?
    Me: Already am!
    (giggle)
    *12 people roll faces on keyboard*
    Leader: Okay, where's the 2nd Oathies!
    Me: Resisted :/
    (snort)
    (as the Leader is stunned by a catapult and I've got SotD on the almost-dead healer)
    *2nd troll dies, all is cool, I don't win jack for loot*
    Leader: Nice job all, smooth run!

    I like farm groups because by the time I have to tell a leader that Oathies has gotten resisted for an 8th straight time I'm practically falling out of my chair laughing.

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krindus View Post
    While I'm here and off topic anyway, what are opinions on using Motivating Speech before the Erebor fight? A raid leader I encountered the other day forbid his captains from giving Motivating Speech, arguing that the inferno ticks away based on a percentage of max morale, and so it was better to avoid using skills like MS and the Hope Banner. Now, seeing that I use the tognir set to buff for that +600 Tact mitigation anyway, I felt his logic might have been a little unsound, but he was the raid leader so I went along with it anyway.
    Ugh. I assume the logic here is that ZOMG X% of bigger morale is bigger damage, which is true, but mitigations are also a percentage reduction... So it shouldn't actually make any difference what anybody's max morale is. They'll still take exactly the same number of ticks to die, barring some randomness for crits and resists.
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