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  1. #26
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    I only have the crit defense ring, sorry I can't contribute to your quandary.

    I just wanted to chime in that we've comfortably been running T1 Battle with two captains tanking (or one with other classes around). That'd include before I got the crit defense gold ring, and with pre-U10 gear.

    The side benefit, if I tank the first troll, I swap to might gear and contribute heals during the second.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    I only have the crit defense ring, sorry I can't contribute to your quandary.

    I just wanted to chime in that we've comfortably been running T1 Battle with two captains tanking (or one with other classes around). That'd include before I got the crit defense gold ring, and with pre-U10 gear.

    The side benefit, if I tank the first troll, I swap to might gear and contribute heals during the second.
    I assume your group takes it slow? On T1 we make it a DPS race and while I'm positive my captain could take the hits, I'm not seeing a way to generate enough aggro to hold the troll. The first 40 seconds would be easy of course, that's all force-taunts, but that still leaves 20 seconds for our group of unknown aggro.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I assume your group takes it slow? On T1 we make it a DPS race and while I'm positive my captain could take the hits, I'm not seeing a way to generate enough aggro to hold the troll. The first 40 seconds would be easy of course, that's all force-taunts, but that still leaves 20 seconds for our group of unknown aggro.
    Improved Grave wound every 25s, generates 10s of forced attack on the Captain. ( grave wound legacy)
    Improved Routing Cry every 36s, another 10s of forced attack. ( 2 perseverance)
    Threatening Shout every 10s. ( LoM bonus)

    proper use of positioning and CC can make the 20s of not forced aggro become even less, if during these intervals the troll is moving or rooted/paralised.:
    TS> mob goes for captain
    > mob decides TS was not enough to hold agroo
    IRC>10s mobs goes for captain
    >another TS
    >mobs decides not go for captain>
    grave wound> 10s
    another TS>
    6s of uncontrolled aggro
    another IRC hold mob for 10s
    TS
    > grave wound - 10s
    TS
    15s of uncontrolled aggro
    IGW>10s>
    TS>
    IRC>10s
    TS
    5s uncontrolled agro
    IGM
    ...

    during the long 15s of uncontrolled aggro the Captain can spam VS, ToN, RC/SL, WoC, MC trying to get aggro back by healing. During the smaller 6s gaps, 2 WoC and one MC should suffice. SfW + MC could help generate aggro when tanking as well.
    for a captain utterly fail tanking the group must be comprised of squishy hunters/RKs with terrible positioning so that the mob would not waste time between forced attacks walking towards the group.

    Its not that captanks suck, Its just not as easy to hold aggro when captanking.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Improved Routing Cry every 36s, another 10s of forced attack. ( 2 perseverance)
    Note that if you are into armor swapping (I'm not personally) you can use 2 perseverance and 2 Helegrod to get the Routing Cry cooldown to 25s, which gives you much better force taunt coverage. If you don't swap, you have the miserable helegrod stats if you keep the Helegrod on though.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Improved Grave wound every 25s, generates 10s of forced attack on the Captain. ( grave wound legacy)
    Improved Routing Cry every 36s, another 10s of forced attack. ( 2 perseverance)
    Threatening Shout every 10s. ( LoM bonus)

    proper use of positioning and CC can make the 20s of not forced aggro become even less, if during these intervals the troll is moving or rooted/paralised.:
    TS> mob goes for captain
    > mob decides TS was not enough to hold agroo
    IRC>10s mobs goes for captain
    >another TS
    >mobs decides not go for captain>
    grave wound> 10s
    another TS>
    6s of uncontrolled aggro
    another IRC hold mob for 10s
    TS
    > grave wound - 10s
    TS
    15s of uncontrolled aggro
    IGW>10s>
    TS>
    IRC>10s
    TS
    5s uncontrolled agro
    IGM
    ...

    during the long 15s of uncontrolled aggro the Captain can spam VS, ToN, RC/SL, WoC, MC trying to get aggro back by healing. During the smaller 6s gaps, 2 WoC and one MC should suffice. SfW + MC could help generate aggro when tanking as well.
    for a captain utterly fail tanking the group must be comprised of squishy hunters/RKs with terrible positioning so that the mob would not waste time between forced attacks walking towards the group.

    Its not that captanks suck, Its just not as easy to hold aggro when captanking.
    You lost me at CCing the troll in battle for erebor, unless you decided to talk about something entirely different than TinDragon.

    All the threatening shouts and healing aggro and accrued Noble Mark threat we can muster, along with Grave Wounds and SL etc aren't enough to hold from a heavy DPS zerg. Maybe if there was a concerted effort to provoke and ebb to the captank.

    Part of the problem is that healing aggro only exists when you heal what the critter's targeting. VS and RC kinda work for aggro because they'll hit everyone, and somebody will be the mob's target. But in my experience with strong DPS players that doesn't really cut it unless in situations bereft of damage multipliers. (fun experiment, go out with an RK buddy and autoattack some landscape orc. His AA sucks so you oughta have aggro from that. Then have the RK spam every HoT he has on himself while you turn your autoattacks off and sit there. He'll never pull. There's some other rules too. I've been demonstrated to in game how heals only gen aggro when you actually make the green bar go up.)
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    All the threatening shouts and healing aggro and accrued Noble Mark threat we can muster, along with Grave Wounds and SL etc aren't enough to hold from a heavy DPS zerg. Maybe if there was a concerted effort to provoke and ebb to the captank.
    All they need to do is turn Fighting Withdrawl into an Engage type skill and bam, problem solved. We'd actually be more likely to hold threat than guards would be, since we can force the mob onto us for longer than guards can before the threat copy. (Grave Wound -> Routing Cry -> Time of Need -> Routing Cry -> Grave Wound for a total of 40 seconds, which beats a guard's Challenge -> Challenge the Darkness -> Challenge) It'd still be balanced too, since our actual threat generation is still lower than a guard's.

    So yeah, here's to hoping Rock gives the captanks some threat goodies with the upcoming revamp.
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  7. #32
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    And for kicks and giggles (and in a separate post to better differentiate topics) I figured I'd quickly go over the changes I've made to my build so far.

    Helm and shoulders are now the Erebor Leader set pieces. Took a little hit on incoming healing but my avoidances went up a bit and I gained some crit defense. I'm using two gold proc rings: crit defense and the morale heal. The second bracelet (Cuff of the Body) has been replaced with a Cruelly Spiked Bracelet for a huge jump in block and vitality. Haul-Tagur (the necklace) has been replaced by the Pitted Steel Chain, which dropped my incoming healing by ~1000 (not too concerned, since I'm going on the assumption that anything I'm tanking will be with Shield Brother's extra 15%), and dropped by tac mit by about 400 for a gain of ~280 block, ~140 parry, and ~210 morale. (Tac mit is still over 68% with just self-buffs and scrolls, and should easily cap with a mini or LM in group.)

    Currently I'm trying to upgrade three pieces of gear: one earring, one bracelet, and the pocket. I can't find a replacement for the bracelet (92 vit/323 morale/600some block is hard to replace) and likewise for the pocket (for a level 80 crafted pocket, it does surprisingly well when compared to other pieces of gear).

    For a replacement to the earring I'm looking at Earring of Ancient Enmity from Northcotton Farms. (75 agi, 113 vit, 384 parry, and 211 morale) Alternately, I may use Gaunt-Lord's Putrid Stud from Stoneheight instead (75 agi, 113 vit, 421 morale) if that's what I end up getting first. Rusted Iron Earring from Lost Temple would also be a good one probably, but I don't know how the teal version looks (I can only see the purple on the Wiki) and that proc is kinda useless to me, so it's taking up a stat slice that I would prefer to have something else on. Essentially what I'm seeing here though is that if I want a tanky earring, I need to run the ITA cluster. Any of those earrings appear to be a pretty good upgrade from my current LG earring. (Actually, at least the Ancient Enmity is probably an improvements on the Guthfinn's earring too.)
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    You lost me at CCing the troll in battle for erebor, unless you decided to talk about something entirely different than TinDragon.

    All the threatening shouts and healing aggro and accrued Noble Mark threat we can muster, along with Grave Wounds and SL etc aren't enough to hold from a heavy DPS zerg. Maybe if there was a concerted effort to provoke and ebb to the captank.

    Part of the problem is that healing aggro only exists when you heal what the critter's targeting. VS and RC kinda work for aggro because they'll hit everyone, and somebody will be the mob's target. ... I've been demonstrated to in game how heals only gen aggro when you actually make the green bar go up.)
    Thank you for the info. I wasn't sure if healing aggro only counted when you heal the target. That only makes me consider that MC+SfW is actually a MUST for cap tanks. Combine that with Inspire shield brother + Melee skills healing legacy and we would be generating treat by healing ourselves while we are the target of the mob. As far as i remember, we have more HPS than DPS when tanking. Maybe that is the secret of aggro generation for Captains after all:

    HEAL YOURSELF NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY!

    The CC reference doesn't apply to trolls from BfE, but it is something Loremasters and other CC class should have in mind- CC the mob when the Captain loses aggro.

    I am learning fast with these posts:

    "Note that if you are into armor swapping (I'm not personally) you can use 2 perseverance and 2 Helegrod to get the Routing Cry cooldown to 25s"
    I forgot/didn't know that helegrod is not just for 0s Rallying Crys , but also for 25s Routing Crys.

    "(Grave Wound -> Routing Cry -> Time of Need -> Routing Cry -> Grave Wound for a total of 40 seconds"
    I haven't tested it, but i assume from the tips of LoM that ToN really RESETS the cooldown of Routing, so you can spam 2 Routing in a row and maintain aggro for 20s non-stop.

    Both posts made things quite a bit easier now:
    -I see no problem swapping helegrod for 25s Routing, since Routing range allow me time to swap back to lv85 gear before the mob engages me again
    - Now the skill rotation tanking becomes: TS>lose aggro> swap> routing>swap back>10s aggro>TS>grave wound>10s aggro> TS> 5s non-aggro, rinse and repeat with an occasion ToN if during the 5s things got ugly. This way a captain maintains aggro for 20 of every 25s ( 80% cycle aggro duty), and during this period all of our self heals count towards aggro generation.

    The proposed skill rotation is very diverse our usual BS>DS>DB>BoE. Further tests are required for a rotation with plenty of TS, MC and Inspire Shield brother, but i am not so pessimist about captanking anymore- we have plenty of tools for treat generation and aggro duty.

  9. #34
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    I had a random thought on a tanking build, but how well would a might = vit build work?

    I can see one benefit being a significantly higher block and parry rating, and better masteries, but I'm wondering if you would sacrifice too much in mitigations and morale for it to be very functional.
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  10. #35
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    Not gonna lie, I've pondered it. I don't think I'd go all the way, since you still need enough morale to sponge up those crits. (Though the new Crit Def helps there, if we get enough of it.)

    If I were to go this route, I'd probably do Sword & Board with a Might shield for the extra Armour and Crit Def. Then I'd wear four pieces of the Erebor Leader set with two pieces of Erebor Charge. Or 4-HytLead/4-EreCharge, but Erebor Leader has the better tanking set bonuses. (Mainly the threat on Pressing Attack.)

    The Might would mostly come in jewelry form, then. There's a lot of "split" jewelry out there, actually, that has roughly equal amounts of Might and Vitality. 75 Might/75 Vit and some extra stuff seems pretty common. That might be the best choice for this sort of thing, so your Tact Mit and Morale pool don't lag behind too much.
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  11. #36
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    While my mits are pretty solid, my morale is a lot lower than what I feel comfortable with already, and that's with vit roughly 2x might.

    If we end up with a morale bonus for tanking in some manner (vit x4?) it'd leave a lot more room to play around with builds like that.
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  12. #37
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    May 2008
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    121
    After U10 i have engaged in a marathon of farming for tanking gear and found friends that would allow me to try tank 6-man T2 and 12-man T1. One group particularly likes me tanking 12-man T2C. As said here before, there a lot more to tanking than enduring damage dealt. A tank must know when to stay and take the hits, or when to kite. A tank must know how to position himself and the mobs for maximum efficiency. And a tank must know how to cry to the group so aggro can be regained faster.

    A few hints while Captanking:
    -When spamming VS, RC, TS in aggressive stance of LoM traitline fews classes can truly take aggro from us. I have taken aggro from a DPS champ in Library countless times without the traits, just the heals, and ost elendil last room is a lesson on treat generation. Fornost shadow boss is another place were a captank can shine.

    -When kiting forbid people to heal you or themselves. You heal with WoC, SfW and use your time of need for a combo that takes all aggro every time: Rallying Cry, last stand, In Harms way, Valiant strike, pressing attack, rallying cry, Valiant strike, back to kiting. By the time you finish this you will have taken and healed so much that the rest of the fight will be easy, as long as the group remember the n.1 rule when the tank has too many mobs kiting- pick one mob at a time from the tank, kill it and let the tank heal the group with WoC and rallying cry from the defeat events. Kite tanking can be frustrating if the RK heals everytime your morale reaches 90% and the hunter/ champ aoe your mobs.

    -When dealing with a single mob with a high DPS fellow on the same target, target the fellow and heal him while firing yours skills, that will be target forwarded to the mob: between noble mark, TS, VS, Inspire shield brother, RC and the forced taunts the mob will give up the champ and switch back to you, perhaps in a more permanent basis.

    -If the fellow is too squish to wait for your heals to catch up in treat, just cry out for the hunter/rk to stop dpsing and run. In about 5s you will regain aggro either from forced attacks or from heals.

    I'm totally OK at tanking @13k Morale, as long as i understand what i will be facing. A Captain can't break stuns, so stun immunity is mandatory in fights where a tank stun is a wipe. Also i must plan ahead and decide if it will be a static placement fight or a kite around and peel mobs. Its crazy to move too much in bfe, as is suicide to engage the 3 trolls and the Cragul at Dungeons T2C without kiting.

    A thread in the Guardians forum teached me that people are nuts about critical defense cap, going all the way to 60%. The most you can mitigate a regular critical is 50%, so any Critical Defense beyond 50% only helps in reducing devastating criticals damage. 50% critical defense is about ~4350 critical defense rating, or a Hoary Platinum ring, a shield and another piece of gear. Even healing Captains can run around with 50% critical defense without compromising anything else.

    Currently i am trying to build a captank with at least 50% critical defense, capped mitigations after proc and some critical. The plan is use bells earrings, keen bracelets of might, crit proc ring+mit proc ring, Metal plaque and make full use of sarchol, Norcrofts iron necklace(or wyrmfire necklace of defense) and greater erebor leader armour to reach capped mitigations with a coldfells banner. The ability to crit while tanking adds a lot of HPS and treat to the build. The idea is not reach critical cap but to see how much critical i can put while keeping critical defense and mitigations high. In the end i realize that i would have less evade and morale, but plenty of block and parry while criting my HoTs. Every time i equip a pure Vitality gear i feel that i am not putting my class abilities to the max- Captaking is not about having massive amounts of morale to withstand 5 critical hits in a row. Its about using the same Might that gives Block and Parry to heal us and the group. It is still a long farm for greater ereboir leader, but i am looking forward to see how the final numbers would look like.
    Last edited by Nascephor; Apr 12 2013 at 07:44 PM.

  13. #38
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    Nov 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    After U10 i have engaged in a marathon of farming for tanking gear and found friends that would allow me to try tank 6-man T2 and 12-man T1. One group particularly likes me tanking 12-man T2C. As said here before, there a lot more to tanking than enduring damage dealt. A tank must know when to stay and take the hits, or when to kite. A tank must know how to position himself and the mobs for maximum efficiency. And a tank must know how to cry to the group so aggro can be regained faster.

    A few hints while Captanking:
    -When spamming VS, RC, TS in aggressive stance of LoM traitline fews classes can truly take aggro from us. I have taken aggro from a DPS champ in Library countless times without the traits, just the heals, and ost elendil last room is a lesson on treat generation. Fornost shadow boss is another place were a captank can shine.

    -When kiting forbid people to heal you or themselves. You heal with WoC, SfW and use your time of need for a combo that takes all aggro every time: Rallying Cry, last stand, In Harms way, Valiant strike, pressing attack, rallying cry, Valiant strike, back to kiting. By the time you finish this you will have taken and healed so much that the rest of the fight will be easy, as long as the group remember the n.1 rule when the tank has too many mobs kiting- pick one mob at a time from the tank, kill it and let the tank heal the group with WoC and rallying cry from the defeat events. Kite tanking can be frustrating if the RK heals everytime your morale reaches 90% and the hunter/ champ aoe your mobs.

    -When dealing with a single mob with a high DPS fellow on the same target, target the fellow and heal him while firing yours skills, that will be target forwarded to the mob: between noble mark, TS, VS, Inspire shield brother, RC and the forced taunts the mob will give up the champ and switch back to you, perhaps in a more permanent basis.

    -If the fellow is too squish to wait for your heals to catch up in treat, just cry out for the hunter/rk to stop dpsing and run. In about 5s you will regain aggro either from forced attacks or from heals.

    I'm totally OK at tanking @13k Morale, as long as i understand what i will be facing. A Captain can't break stuns, so stun immunity is mandatory in fights where a tank stun is a wipe. Also i must plan ahead and decide if it will be a static placement fight or a kite around and peel mobs. Its crazy to move too much in bfe, as is suicide to engage the 3 trolls and the Cragul at Dungeons T2C without kiting.

    A thread in the Guardians forum teached me that people are nuts about critical defense cap, going all the way to 60%. The most you can mitigate a regular critical is 50%, so any Critical Defense beyond 50% only helps in reducing devastating criticals damage. 50% critical defense is about ~4350 critical defense rating, or a Hoary Platinum ring, a shield and another piece of gear. Even healing Captains can run around with 50% critical defense without compromising anything else.

    Currently i am trying to build a captank with at least 50% critical defense, capped mitigations after proc and some critical. The plan is use bells earrings, keen bracelets of might, crit proc ring+mit proc ring, Metal plaque and make full use of sarchol, Norcrofts iron necklace(or wyrmfire necklace of defense) and greater erebor leader armour to reach capped mitigations with a coldfells banner. The ability to crit while tanking adds a lot of HPS and treat to the build. The idea is not reach critical cap but to see how much critical i can put while keeping critical defense and mitigations high. In the end i realize that i would have less evade and morale, but plenty of block and parry while criting my HoTs. Every time i equip a pure Vitality gear i feel that i am not putting my class abilities to the max- Captaking is not about having massive amounts of morale to withstand 5 critical hits in a row. Its about using the same Might that gives Block and Parry to heal us and the group. It is still a long farm for greater ereboir leader, but i am looking forward to see how the final numbers would look like.
    I just want to give you credit. After reading your posts describing your paladin-like build where you tank and heal in your groups I decided to give it a try, and I have to say so far it is far more interesting and cool than I thought it would be, and the results have been really promising even now while I am still in the process of working on it. So just wanted to give you Kudos for discovering a really cool way to play Captain. Not sure this would have been possible before the Hytbold Armor was introduced - but it definitely is now and you have made a believer out of me. I feel like a mini warden when I do it, and it's great.

    I agree with all of your sentiments in your last paragraph too, and have come to roughly all the same conclusions as you regarding how to get the most out of a build like this.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 17 2013 at 04:58 PM.

 

 
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