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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    31

    class philosophy behind upcoming changes?

    I was wondering if the developer responsible for our class (my apologies for not knowing whom you may be) would be kind enough to shed some light in regards to what's behind (read: concept) of whatever a change is upcoming for LRMs within the year. Namely:

    -- interdependency of systems/mechanics with the other 'casting' classes. What it entails for LRM skills --

    Changes have been made to power, but the core issue still stands. Power should in theory be present in this game as a resource pool and only that, the tool through which you would measure our potential, help balance the class with the others. To any an extent. It has all gone out the window since RKs were introduced. You brought in a 'pure' casting class, kept Power for those exact reasons, very logical..but..and here the problem begun.. you made no changes to neither LRMs nor Minnies skills. Not at their core. Forget the numbers for just a minute. For LRMs, we have so few spells that fall under the 30sec CD and yet even those have a CD as well..why? They have a relatively long casting time, even if fire traited, and they need the Power resource to function. Why the CD? Have you played as a LRM doing solo quests/farms? For how long? At what a rate/rush? It is so often one has to wait for CDs, all of different a length, and for what a reason really? Don't tell me balance, cause that never happened, not really.

    1) -> Would you be willing to look into the skills' cooldowns and change them? By simultaneously changing what power ups or downs each trait line would give them? If not, would you be kind enough to provide some form of a direction towards which you would go, if any? In regards to this subject that is;

    On a different topic, the systems related to weapons weilded and powers 'active', one again has to wonder what the direction has been, or shall be. It was a system that held its own, even if only in theory, prior to the introduction of RKs. Since then..need i remind you the problems during beta with RK weapon dmg and speed? That instead of sorting them, you ended up changing the entire thing and homogenising all the weapons? For all the classes?.. We are at a point where the wrong system has been shoe-horned and forced to fit into all the classes. Sadly. With all that this entails, both in sense of how melee classes perform, and how mechanics are 'universal'. Interdependency again. Disarming say. A lore master without his staff need not necessarily be useless, neither by Lore, nor by common logic. And yet they are. Because of the above changes. I am sure you get my point, this is getting long as it is. Disarming is but one example.

    2) -> Is it a system you would be willing to look into again? In regards to LRMs or all 3 'casters'? Or do you feel the demands (time= Turbine suits convinced they should give money) it entails are such that you are forced to leave it as is?

    2.a) -> If it is to be left as is, would you be willing to reconsider in practical obviously a sense what an imbalance it feels like when melee classes no longer have 'miss' penalties, whereas we are still getting that blasted 'resisted' ? We are after all..homogenised..are we not..?

    2. b.) -> If it is to be left as is, would you be willing to help LRMs more by adding some finesse items? Through crafting and maybe even questing later on? Our, once again, yes, beloved RK cousins got those finesse class items from 20(?) onwards. May we as well? Even optionally, no one is advocating the removal of the current pet boost ones.

    We still play you know. We want to
    Last edited by Amannas; Feb 27 2013 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    St Louis Mo
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    1,999
    Sorry.. stopped reading part way thru.

    You do know they standardized the power pools to be based on level with update 10, right? RKs, Minis and LMs will have one (larger) size, other classes the same size, based on level of the tune. Throws most of what you said out the window.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    31
    so you stopped reading, but are somehow aware of what i am saying; In the entirety of the argument. In addition to your supernatural abilities, you apparently possess the excess of grey matter required to take things you are told at a face value only, believe in them in advance and with zero an in-depth consideration. Thank you for taking the time to show me a part of yourself, but i am not here to meet new people. Nice meeting you however, i wish you well.

  4. #4
    Okay, I've read through this... six times now? (Not sure why), and I think I'm beginning to understand what's the OP's getting at. Maybe.

    1) You seem to be saying that skills should either be resource limited (i.e., power) or time limited (i.e., cooldowns). I'm not sure how the LM having skills with both a resource limitation and a time limitation is unique - there's only about four combat skills in the game with no cooldown. LMs have one - Improved Sign of Battle: Wizard's Fire, which as a trade off for having no cooldown is relatively pointless to spam (from a damage stand point). RKs have two - Ceaseless Argument and Fiery Rhetoric, both of which essentially acts as ranged, tactical auto-attacks, and are generally lower DPS skills than the other primary damage skills in their respective lines. And hunters have one - Penetrating Shot, which is resource limited, but primarily limited by the hunter's Focus resource, and not power. All other combat skills have (I think) both power costs and cooldowns.

    Also, I'm not sure what you mean about waiting on cooldowns. Typical skill rotation is Burning Embers, Staff Strike, (Light of the Rising Dawn/Staff Sweep/Sticky Gourd - pick one). Six second cycle, skill will usually be off cooldown or about to come off cooldown when needed.

    2) I think you're talking about the disarm mechanism, mostly? I don't think LMs care, since their wound removal works while disarmed. It's very rare to actually be disarmed for a sizable length of time. Should more LM skills be usable while disarmed? Maybe.

    2a) The melee/ranged equivalent of resistance is block/evade/parry, not miss.

    2b) Finesse probably could show up earlier, but would probably have to be balanced with the fact that prior to 50, mobs are still ramping up their resistance percentages. Still, it is weird with proper finesse and -resist legacies, effective resistance peaks at 50, and then can be reduced back to 0%.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    St Louis Mo
    Posts
    1,999
    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    so you stopped reading, but are somehow aware of what i am saying; In the entirety of the argument. In addition to your supernatural abilities, you apparently possess the excess of grey matter required to take things you are told at a face value only, believe in them in advance and with zero an in-depth consideration. Thank you for taking the time to show me a part of yourself, but i am not here to meet new people. Nice meeting you however, i wish you well.
    Sigh.. Very well.. lets discuss (destroy) it thoroughly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    I was wondering if the developer responsible for our class (my apologies for not knowing whom you may be) would be kind enough to shed some light in regards to what's behind (read: concept) of whatever a change is upcoming for LRMs within the year.
    Wait on the dev diaries.. for UPDATE 11.. We MAY hear some by summer, but most likely will receive information on this in the fall as the RoR part Duex comes out. If you look in other classes forums, the respective Devs of Burgs and Hunters have just started taking ideas this week, limited to three per person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    Namely:

    -- interdependency of systems/mechanics with the other 'casting' classes.
    Umm.. No.. if a mini is casting something, it does not affect whether I can cast any skill in my inventory, nor does a warden gambit block one of my skills.. no interdependancy at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    What it entails for LRM skills --

    Changes have been made to power, but the core issue still stands. Power should in theory be present in this game as a resource pool and only that, the tool through which you would measure our potential, help balance the class with the others
    Sooo... hunh? What does the RK you next mention have to do with my power pool? If a class, ANY class, cant manage their power resource pool, it becomes an issue for me in this order:

    Healer (Mini or RK)
    Tank (Gaurd or Warden, maybe Cappie or Champ)
    DPS (Hunter, Burg, Chump, RK)

    And, that is assuming I dont need to do anything other than push power, like Debuffs, Spot heals or remove Wounds, Draw power, oh, and DPS or hit a flank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    To any an extent. It has all gone out the window since RKs were introduced. You brought in a 'pure' casting class, kept Power for those exact reasons, very logical..but..and here the problem begun.. you made no changes to neither LRMs nor Minnies skills. Not at their core.
    Lets skip the three-four-five TOTAL revamps of mini skills and remember how many things have changed since Moria introduced RKs. (Warding Circle consolidatioin, KotLM debuffs, Group share power, Stuns (BF and Banes) affect all genus, group heals. Frostlore, Dispell Corruption, Imp Knowledge of Cures revamp, three-stack Burning Embers, Spirit pet, Bear revamp, and more that I cant think of atm.) LMs and Minis have been FAR from stationary since RKs were introduced.

    That is setting aside, WHY, would introducing a new class change either of the others at their core?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    Forget the numbers for just a minute. For LRMs, we have so few spells that fall under the 30sec CD and yet even those have a CD as well..why? They have a relatively long casting time, even if fire traited, and they need the Power resource to function. Why the CD? Have you played as a LRM doing solo quests/farms? For how long? At what a rate/rush? It is so often one has to wait for CDs, all of different a length, and for what a reason really? Don't tell me balance, cause that never happened, not really.
    I would guess you are asking a dev, Good luck getting an answer to that, as I have read about 4 times in the last two months that, Turbine does not have class devs like we used to have back then. However,

    Yes, I have been playing a LM for FOUR YEARS now. I have yet to wait on a cooldown. Use another skill, you have lots. Fire, storm, flank, debuff (which also usually does damage, if your point is we need to DPS more, not sure)

    REALLY not sure what our cooldowns have to do with balance, except to prevent us from spamming Ents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    1) -> Would you be willing to look into the skills' cooldowns and change them? By simultaneously changing what power ups or downs each trait line would give them? If not, would you be kind enough to provide some form of a direction towards which you would go, if any? In regards to this subject that is;
    Once again, look for a dev diary sometime next fall to explain any changes, and if we get REALLY lucky, conversation with a dev in the forums, to explain the direction. But expect instead, all our skills to be consolidated into five buttons, Mez, DoT, Damage, Debuff and Heal. Even if they adopt the GW2 model that they seem to be going to, that game also has cooldowns to prevent spamming skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    On a different topic, the systems related to weapons weilded and powers 'active', one again has to wonder what the direction has been, or shall be. It was a system that held its own, even if only in theory, prior to the introduction of RKs. Since then..need i remind you the problems during beta with RK weapon dmg and speed? That instead of sorting them, you ended up changing the entire thing and homogenising all the weapons? For all the classes?.. We are at a point where the wrong system has been shoe-horned and forced to fit into all the classes. Sadly. With all that this entails, both in sense of how melee classes perform, and how mechanics are 'universal'. Interdependency again. Disarming say. A lore master without his staff need not necessarily be useless, neither by Lore, nor by common logic. And yet they are. Because of the above changes. I am sure you get my point, this is getting long as it is. Disarming is but one example.
    Actually, I have no idea what your point is. One second, you are complaining about LM cooldowns, the next, saying that the game is broke since all classes have their weapon skills standardized. You compare RKs to melee classes. Remind me again the last time a RK was in melee range and hit the mob with his rock or his purse? Casting classes have the same thing, cooldowns on skills, not based on standardized weapon use. A loremaster can remove wounds to remove disarm for THE ENTIRE group, if his staff is gone. If he is silenced, or stunned, well.. usualy that is AE and applies to all.. Oh, wait, we have Call to the Valar to hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    2) -> Is it a system you would be willing to look into again? In regards to LRMs or all 3 'casters'? Or do you feel the demands (time= Turbine suits convinced they should give money) it entails are such that you are forced to leave it as is?
    They have said they are looking at a significant class revamp. For this, I defer to Katie Paiz:

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie Paiz View Post
    Class Adjustments – Later in the year, we will be making some significant changes to the skills and traits of the Free Peoples classes. We’ll be pruning out skills that just feel disappointing in play and increasing the potency of others. The end result will be fewer skills, but a more profound impact on moment-to-moment play. How you choose to specialize your class will make a real difference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    2.a) -> If it is to be left as is, would you be willing to reconsider in practical obviously a sense what an imbalance it feels like when melee classes no longer have 'miss' penalties, whereas we are still getting that blasted 'resisted' ? We are after all..homogenised..are we not..?
    Ummm, wow,, I guess you dont play a melee class.. oh wait. LMs are more effective in melee in most cases. This "miss" change you are talking about. Check out what was said:

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...mbat-revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post

    Base Miss Chance has been reduced to 0.

    Funny story… those “Misses” that seemed to happen more frequently as you fought mobs that were higher level than you were never actually “Misses”. They are in-fact a unique check made by mobs of greater level to see if they can negate incoming attacks. They were erroneously labeled as “Misses,” which lead to confusion as no amount of Agility or Reduced Miss Chance would alter the probability of these of events.
    So.. basically, they did not change anything about the mechanics for casting classes vs melee classes, just renamed what the combat log said when a mob blocked, parried or evaded a swing or spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amannas View Post
    2. b.) -> If it is to be left as is, would you be willing to help LRMs more by adding some finesse items? Through crafting and maybe even questing later on? Our, once again, yes, beloved RK cousins got those finesse class items from 20(?) onwards. May we as well? Even optionally, no one is advocating the removal of the current pet boost ones.

    We still play you know. We want to
    Fascinating thing about your last point. RKs, minis and, (drum-roll) LOREMASTER all wear LIGHT armor, which can have finesse on it. The only items we cant wear are.. oh, yeah.. our class armors, like Hytbold and raid armor. All classes CAN wear the same jewelry, albiet, finesse is rarely a consideration for me atm. I have many other things I want. Sadly, I will have to see how update 10 impacts what I look for there.

    Is that enough in-depth for your grey matter?

 

 

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