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  1. #1

    elves turning into orcs

    hello I wanted to ask this because it has to do with something I wanted to rp about in the game.

    I know Galadriel was tempted by the ring when it was offered to her, but could elves be tempted without the ring right there like how I guess Saruman started off good then turned evil? I don't know exactly how to ask that question so I hope that made sense.

    And I know there is conflict about where orcs came from because of the time line with the elves. I believe one source said orcs were elves though even though it didn't match the time line. But whether orcs were men or elves, did that mean that men or elves could be captured and turned into orcs during frodo's time?

    (sorry if these are stupid questions)
    Thank you!
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  2. #2
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    Sorry for the rather short reply (the forum just killed a half a page worth of my post elsewhere and I'm out of energy): Tolkien himself was never completely sure about the nature and beginnings of the Orcs. He speculated a lot himself, and all that is there by others is pure speculation.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Urwendil View Post

    Sorry for the rather short reply (the forum just killed a half a page worth of my post elsewhere and I'm out of energy): Tolkien himself was never completely sure about the nature and beginnings of the Orcs. He speculated a lot himself, and all that is there by others is pure speculation.
    Thank you Urwendil. If you do feel the energy to expand on that, I would greatly enjoy reading more of what you had to say about it. But I understand about writing a lot then it getting lost.
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  4. #4
    It seems that orcs were originally created by imprisoning and torturing elves. From there, there may have been various types of cross-breeding with elves and men. As Urwendil mentioned, Tolkien's thoughts about the origins of the orcs changed over time, and he never really settled on a single theory.

    I could write more, but I'd only be repeating what I just read on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc. Check it out!

  5. #5
    Well if Saruman (a Maia) can be tempted then surely a lesser being such as an elf can too?

    In fact isn't there a whole epic story arc along these lines?......

    Elves are naturally "good" however so in my view it would likely take some sort of traumatic event, perhaps some some rash vows with some evil manipulations/machinations by some seriously dark powers thrown in for added measure.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dek153 View Post
    Well if Saruman (a Maia) can be tempted then surely a lesser being such as an elf can too?

    In fact isn't there a whole epic story arc along these lines?......

    Elves are naturally "good" however so in my view it would likely take some sort of traumatic event, perhaps some some rash vows with some evil manipulations/machinations by some seriously dark powers thrown in for added measure.
    Well, they wouldn't be tempted by anything Sauron had to offer - they'd never knowingly trust or help him in any way so yes, he'd have to resort to something devious. Manipulating Men was a heck of a lot easier though so he'd concentrated on that, and got really, really good at it. Thing is, though, I doubt any Elf would rush into swearing terrible oaths either because of the cautionary example of the Oath of Feanor and all the dreadful things that came from that.

  7. #7
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    Truth that the 1st elves will never whilingly swear loyalty to Sauron or Melkor cause they experienced 1st hand their evil & the Oath of Feanor but the children born in cautivery didnt know anything about those stories & may have fallen to their lies.
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  8. #8

    Smile

    Melkor was aware of the arrival of the Elves before the Valar, and

    Taken directly from the 1977 Published version of the Silmarillion - 'Of The Coming of Elves';

    "sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them. So it came to pass, some years before the coming of Orome, that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return."


    "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."

    There are, no doubt, many variations in various texts about the Orcs origins but this was the final published version, I hope it helps

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bethanna View Post
    But whether orcs were men or elves, did that mean that men or elves could be captured and turned into orcs during frodo's time?
    For this question, while I don’t think there was any indication that elves or men were being captured and corrupted into orcs directly during the time of the War of the Ring, there was some type of inter-breeding being done by Saruman to create half-orcs. One presumes this included capturing men or women (more likely women) and forcing them to be bred. Treebeard called it a “black evil.”

    One source you could check out for more info: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Half-orc
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethanna View Post
    hello I wanted to ask this because it has to do with something I wanted to rp about in the game.

    I know Galadriel was tempted by the ring when it was offered to her, but could elves be tempted without the ring right there like how I guess Saruman started off good then turned evil? I don't know exactly how to ask that question so I hope that made sense.

    And I know there is conflict about where orcs came from because of the time line with the elves. I believe one source said orcs were elves though even though it didn't match the time line. But whether orcs were men or elves, did that mean that men or elves could be captured and turned into orcs during frodo's time?

    (sorry if these are stupid questions)
    Thank you!
    I think Galadriel was probably tempted by the ring long before the fellowship reached Lorien. I also think that the more power one has tasted, the more the lure of the power of the ring would pull on them. (as a general rule; subject to possible exceptions of especially enlightened beings who have seen through the folly of needing/wanting to control others) She passed the test in the end as did Gandalf. Saruman apparently did not fare so well.

  11. #11
    Could elves or others be corrupted into orcs in the Third Age? Possibly, but from how it's described in the Silmarillion, it's likely that their being twisted and corrupted probably happened over generations 'by slow arts of cruelty'. I imagine there wasn't enough time by the War of the Ring to turn anyone into an orc - just a terribly unhappy, miserable, and tortured prisoner.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dol_Amroth_Knight View Post
    Could elves or others be corrupted into orcs in the Third Age?
    Not really. Sauron was very powerful, but he was nothing like as powerful as Melkor had been in the early days. He'd helped Melkor out with the Orcs (and bred lots more while Melkor was imprisoned in Valinor), but he wasn't able to break the will of Elves himself.

    Neither was he trying to turn Men into Orcs - he had plenty of Orcs already. What he had done, though, was to corrupt some Men in his service (Easterlings or Southrons, one presumes) to the point at which they'd willingly mate with Orcs (so JRRT said), much as Saruman later did, so as to breed Orcs who were larger, stronger and more fierce. Those were the Orcs Sauron used to surprise-attack Gondor and take Osgiliath the first time around.

 

 

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