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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Yourpointman View Post
    a. Due to restricted access, has our stealth level been reduced...we can only count 9 rather than the previous 13

    b. If this "reduced access" to stealth has occurred, when and how will it be addressed to restore us at least to pre-update stealth levels?
    I would like to see the "effectiveness" of stealth returned to a more balanced level, and the "ability to improve" burg stealthiness to be more in balance with anti-stealth measures.

    For one, it's very painful to even be able to reach a high stealth level, whereas anti-stealth measures are extremely easy to achieve. BA's use a single trait/skill to achieve +10 detection, whereas burgs need to grind for multiple pieces of (typically) inferior gear to reach even +9 stealth. There's no real point to +3 or +5 stealth -- the only real options are +0 stealth level or grind it out to +9.

    I suggest that we have a legendary trait for +x stealth level that puts burgs on par with BA stealth detection and we remove +stealth from gear altogether. Utilizing 1 of our 3 legendary trait slots is a significant decision to make in our build - we still sacrifice something to achieve high stealth level. But the decision can be made at the bard rather than through gear swapping and painful gear grinding.

    Finally, rebalance how tracking works so that stealth is not effectively useless (regardless of stealth level). This goes for both sides - creep and freep need to have effectively similar capabilities to track. Brands and CC have been revamped significantly with the goal of bringing balance -- it's time for tracking to be revamped so that stealth and anti-stealth are in balance.
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  2. #202
    Join Date
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    Wile we are on the topic of stealth. Do we want to maintain it as an integral part of the class or swap it to a trait line or tree specific thing?


    I am all for keeping it as a core defining characteristic of the class.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by ifreborn1 View Post
    Wile we are on the topic of stealth. Do we want to maintain it as an integral part of the class or swap it to a trait line or tree specific thing?


    I am all for keeping it as a core defining characteristic of the class.
    I agree... stealth should always be part of the core of what a burglar is. Regardless of traits/gear we should always have the basic ability to enter stealth (slower movement and +0 stealth level).

    My suggestion to have a legendary trait tied to +stealth is so that we have the option to become superior at being stealthy if we choose to. If we have no need for stealth, then we don't trait it. Stealth is a class defining ability - it should have a legendary trait associated with it that makes us, well, legendary. Of course, all the other aspects of stealth need to be addressed first/in parallel (ie. spam tracking, HIPS bug, etc.) or this would be a complete waste of effort. Balance out the anti-stealth mechanics and stealth level becomes relevant again.

    I'm tired of having to re-grind landscape gear to be even remotely viable at stealth in the moors, which quite frankly is the only place where stealth really matters. The current "basic" stealth is generally sufficient for PVE.

    What other class has to grind random, disconnected, and generally inferior gear to be able to "upgrade" one of their core and class defining abilities. It simply doesn't make sense for stealth to be tied to random gear.
    Last edited by hall9003; Mar 22 2013 at 04:37 PM.
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  4. #204
    What I would like to see:

    1- Improved Fellowship Manoeuvres.

    2- A more useful Mischief stance.

    3- An AoE skill (it doesn't have to be a new one, you can just revise Flashing Blades skill and make it a 180degree frontal aoe skill for 3 targets, or whatever you like.. <- Saw this suggestion on the forum, I liked it.)
    Last edited by Lsottoroe; Mar 23 2013 at 05:05 AM.
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  5. #205
    You should have a chance to evade tracks, it should be low, and it should be affected by stealth level.

    Basic level coming from gear, with a trait and legacy to add to it.

  6. #206
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    I'd like to see some interesting mechanic tied in with the Mischief Maker traitline. I've been playing it for a while now, it's quite fun once you actually give it a chance (which most burglars don't, they act like running MM is devil worshiping or something) It's actually a pretty strong line, albeit nowhere near as strong as the other two. I've run in the Moors with it alot and the 'tricks' (pun intended) you have at your disposal are nothing to take lightly. The ability to pretty much nullify creep finesse while also having loads of CC methods is indeed fun but once you've done all of that you're back to running crit chain mindlessly. I have no suggestions for it but I hope you have something in mind to make this trait line as fun as Quiet Knife and Gambler.

    I'd also like to see the Trickster trait changed... make Dust a 3 target skill by default and the trait changed to increase miss chance and the slow and would a run speed buff on TnG be too much to ask for? xD
    Miradhor, R12 100 Burglar of Firefoot

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imoura View Post
    I'd also like to see the Trickster trait changed... make Dust a 3 target skill by default and the trait changed to increase miss chance and the slow and would a run speed buff on TnG be too much to ask for? xD
    That would be lovely.
    Trait trees have ruined the game

  8. #208
    I dont play Burg very much and haven't read the entire thread so sorry if I am duplicating someones idea....

    Having most raid bosses as being fellowship immune is fine, however I wish the FM openers (trip, exploit opening, exposed throat) still had some functionality even when used on on mobs that are FM immune. Perhaps the 4 openers could have their own unique effects. I will give some possible examples.

    Exploit Opening - Places a debuff on the target and returns 10% of damage done as power (duration 10 seconds) - like a cappie healing mark but works for power and is for a limited duration.

    Trip - Reduces the critical chance of the target to 0 (duration 15 seconds)

    Exposed Throat - 20% chance to apply a 10% armour reduction to the target (duration 10 seconds)

    Marbles - Reduce the target's finesse to 0 (duration 15 seconds)

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    A few general things I agree with and have been attempting to address:
    1. Lack of survivability – Both general survival and panic buttons are in need of some love
    2. Speed of attacks – Yup, we definitely have some anim issues that hinder the flow of combat.
    3. Cool mechanics that lack definition – Tricks, Gambles and the Crit Chain need some fine tuning
    4. Legendaries that are less than Legendary

    These, of course, aren’t the only things I’m addressing/adding, but I think these are some of the most prominent issues listed in this thread.
    Kelsan - can you let us know if Turbine is looking at FMs at all? I've never seen anything to indicate that they are.

    I know that's not technically a burg issue per se (though we have seen a lot of comments about them on this thread), but they really do need to be addressed. Better/more useful FMs will make burgs more desireable in groups, and that would be a good thing.
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  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg View Post
    Kelsan - can you let us know if Turbine is looking at FMs at all? I've never seen anything to indicate that they are.

    I know that's not technically a burg issue per se (though we have seen a lot of comments about them on this thread), but they really do need to be addressed. Better/more useful FMs will make burgs more desireable in groups, and that would be a good thing.
    Take it for what it is:

    Q43: @Zyaxis the DMG and heal from conjunctions has not kept pace with our skills. Any changes coming ?

    A43: Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti
    We're looking at both the balance and timing of conjunctions. A43a: An update should come with the class changes.
    Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.

  11. #211
    1. Improve MM, stronger tricks/more tricks per enemy/another trick
    2. Make some skills change with stance, ie. Diversion in Gambler applies gamble; MM, in combat, a fear; QK, decreased stealth detection; etc.
    3. Add a new skill "Add insult to injury" (seams to fit with tricksterism) only available after a bleed... eh?
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  12. #212
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    Batman cape
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    Happy LotROing!

  13. #213
    1 the yellow line:
    more tricks! the specific traits are good but the line bonuses and the legendary bonus are weak and uninteresting
    Trait bonus suggestions:
    - upgrading riddle or reduce the cooldown to 15 sec;
    - reduce decay time of the starting twist
    - upgrade reveal weakness onto 12-15% incoming damage
    - + X% probability for a CJ of exposed throat,
    - Caltrops snares for 20 sec + higher range
    - Disable is possible by using throwing knives
    - confound stuns almost instant

    Trick suggestions:
    - "wound amplify" Any(!) DOT`s increase by x% (range: by a serrated throwing knife)
    - "anger" the opponent is stunned for 3 sec, 2 sec out of stun and then again 3 sec stunned... 4 times all in all. Cooldown 2 min
    - debuff armour / chance for critical hits
    - another AOE trick would be nice

    “removing-trick-skills” suggestions:
    - "Disarm" for 5-10 seconds, Cooldown: 2 min (melee)
    - "Bare" remove the stun immunity and reduce the duration of CJ immunity about 50%, Cooldown: 5 min (range)
    - "wear/devitalize" Duration: 10sec. Cooldown: 4min. While the effect of the skill the opponent takes no damage, but he is losing massive force. These force gets the group back similar to the captain skill: Revealing Mark. (range)

    legendary bonus:
    - "trick gambit": it is possible to make three tricks to an opponent, they reinforce each other as the ballads do. The amplification of the tricks 2 and 3 must not even be the same as the first effect otherwise it would be overpowered. Example: 3x counter defence = 12% > 6% (1. trick) + 3% (2. trick) + 3% (3. trick). Perhaps, certain combinations of tricks become a "great trick" with a better effect than a random combination. As with the CJ.
    - Legendary bonus: a snall snag reinforces the effect of each trick

    2 Fellowship Manoeuvre:
    strengthens the maneuvers according to the prevailing moral / power / damage level. They are unfortunately just used as a stun at the moment. Give them back the important role in a fellowship/raid.
    - Straights must have significantly more positive effects than 5x red and 1 blue
    - Please also add new maneuvers!
    - How about 2 new colors for example orange and purple? > so we got 6 buttons and possibilities for completely new effects
    - remove random CJ of all classes except those of burglar and guardian.
    - please no more boss fights with CJ immunity. Some limitations are ok, like: only 2-3 CJ have a positive effect for the fellowship. Or just the blue and yellow button are allowed. something between draigoch and CJ immunity, be creative! CJ at the right time/place, use the environment, add groups and scripted events during the bossfight. Etc)
    - Instead of a oathbreakers which are summoned could appear a spider-/eagle-/ent- or horse-spirit. The eagle could heal or revive a fallen companion. The spider could boost all the DOT`s on an opponent. The ent make AOE and the horse-spirit steal the power of an enemy and give it to the fellowship. Those spirits could boost some resistance (ent = red = wound resistance) for several time and in certain area.&

    3 Other:
    - solo CJ: The CJ are such a great game element that shouldn’t be missing in solo play. that could be a blue line trait bonus. By using a CJ-skill, the Fellowship Manoeuvre wheel appear. The color of the first button is determined by fortuity, the second by the players choice and the third by the equipped signal.
    - Stance: individual skills have different effects depending on the stance! The blue line goes in the right direction. Mischief could improve damage skills into tricks, skills in QN trigger more and higher DOT`s or for example diversion could reduces aggro in fight, etc. Switching the stances in battle. The same cooldown like minstrels.
    - the blue line: Increase the DOT`s, damage, tempo and/or the effects (3 skills for an those weak effects, takes too long!)to be competitive to the red line! The blue line could be such a funny debuffline too...
    -increase DOTs. They are so ridiculous, even well-placed strike is only useful with “draigoch-armour-set”
    - all the crafted tools (exept the marbles) are useless: improving effects (stundust/signals), range and damage (caltrops!/knifes...) or cool down (signals!). Maybe change those into skills (trowing knifes and axes).
    - mischievous delight, find footing, (and the human heal!) adjust to the current morale level.
    - blind fury: give us some reasons to use that skill.
    - strike from the shadows: become unnecessary with the improved sneak.
    - Overwhelming Odds: boost the effects
    - Escape Clause: In the present form is absolutely unnecessary, cooldown takes to long.
    - range skills/tricks: implement more. For example a throwing knifetrick

    greetings seo
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  14. #214
    Join Date
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    Kelsan, any chance you could look at enrage? It's quite useless and is just taking up space.


    Also, I had the bright idea to try traited enrage on the archers in Flight to the Lonely Mountain and you know what happened? The archer continued to shoot his bow as if nothing had happened. Could you clarify if this is a bug or WAI?

    Edit:

    Wind-lore doesn't work on them either. Consult LM dev please.
    Last edited by Imoura; Apr 05 2013 at 03:23 AM.
    Miradhor, R12 100 Burglar of Firefoot

  15. #215
    Kelsan, yesterday , bocouse finnally have all t2 deed, I was checking armour sets for burg. One question appear, all that sets have so many agility, and such a small amount of vitality... Do devs want us to be glass cannons? Is this is a new role of burg?
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Cliford View Post
    Kelsan, yesterday , bocouse finnally have all t2 deed, I was checking armour sets for burg. One question appear, all that sets have so many agility, and such a small amount of vitality... Do devs want us to be glass cannons? Is this is a new role of burg?
    I'm gonna leave this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie View Post
    All these new items are completely glass-cannon gears.

    I am not a fan.
    Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Imoura View Post
    Kelsan, any chance you could look at enrage? It's quite useless and is just taking up space.


    Also, I had the bright idea to try traited enrage on the archers in Flight to the Lonely Mountain and you know what happened? The archer continued to shoot his bow as if nothing had happened. Could you clarify if this is a bug or WAI?

    Edit:

    Wind-lore doesn't work on them either. Consult LM dev please.
    I'm gonna leave this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie View Post

    Enrage. This was on the cusp.
    Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.

  18. #218

    A few thoughts

    The idea of upgrading stealth for PvP purposes is entirely needed and I propose that it be tied to something we already need in the Moors to be sufficient, Audacity. Tier up the stealth in accordance to the level up Audacity or pieces of PvP gear a freep has either by 1/2 or full levels of stealth with a maximum upgrade of say 5-6 stealth(obviously the ratio would have to be decreased each time there is an audacity increase). That way with a bag maxed out and any combination of a cloak or bauble we would be around +8-11 stealth depending on what traits are slotted. Any bump would be welcomed. Another idea would be to have LI's include stealth level as a innate upgrade, along the lines of Captains/Champ/Guard/LM receiving random boosts to stats, raw morale, power, parry, crit, etc, because lets be honest a -3% melee skill costs and whatever -% trick cost on a first age bag isn't overly useful anymore. Instead for burgs have a base stealth level based on the quality of the tools. +1-2 stealth for 3rd age weapons, +3-5 for 2nd age and +6-8 for 1st agers. I realize this increase in stealth would not affect any part of the game other than PvP but it could easily be added.

    I have also been thinking more and more about the range on attacks, kinda of like a Champs and Guards got with the increased melee skill range legacy but hesitant that this would unbalance the class and make it a little too OP. Possibly upgrade small snag into a better buff which gives extra range for melee attacks only, for a certain amount of time, say base 10s with a legacy to increase the duration. This skill would somehow change certain skills, for example subtle and cunning into a ranged attack in which the burglar animations would be something like throwing knives. Cunning could gain an extra few % to bleed damage while subtle stab could have a chance to slow the target x% for x seconds, each skill benefiting from the positional damage bonus and could be buffed by which line is traited. QK increase bleed damage, MM increased slow, Gambler increased chance to stun/root if target has an active gamble on it.
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  19. #219
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    Hows progress?


    any news any info on skill trees and how a burg will still feel like a burg post trees?

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by hall9003 View Post
    Finally, rebalance how tracking works so that stealth is not effectively useless (regardless of stealth level). This goes for both sides - creep and freep need to have effectively similar capabilities to track. Brands and CC have been revamped significantly with the goal of bringing balance -- it's time for tracking to be revamped so that stealth and anti-stealth are in balance.
    Stealthing from my point of view became insignificant when they introduced store trackers, so any class could and would track you regardless the spot, so with that + wargs tracking you, it was only a matter of time with you popping up, whether it was forced or for a kill.

    Still, stealthing is a major point for Burglars and I feel it is the way it should be for them, it's what makes us different from the other classes in PVE (because I know there's so many Burglars reading the forums that are PVE-only), and what makes it (OP? Maybe, but also) fun in PVP. You have the advantage of it, so we use it.

    Yet, as I said, with the introduction of store trackers, and rank 0 wargs having sense prey etc (shortly, Isengard), stealth level has been neglected, and it still is, stealth level comes on the ''good'' items, but imho those golden items also need some adjustement
    [IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/2qx7sdx.png[/IMG]
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  21. #221
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Verona, Italy
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    Hi Kelsan,
    thanks for asking our opinion, I'm an old raid Burrahobbit and I started playing this great class because a Burglar (before Moria) can flip the combat with debuffs/CC/fellowship maneuvers.
    After Moria I feel less useful... a group needs a Burglar only to dps, dps and... dps...

    We are not champions, we can change fast between target to debuff them, stun coming adds and help our healers with fellowship maneuvers, yes, less dps and more utility.
    Or spec full red (QK) and go dps single target... (boring)

    1) Give yellow line (MM) more appeal, yellow traits now are "this or that" they need to be more useful combined and the capstone needs to be powerful as the red one.
    2) Give us a way (maybe in yellow line) to improve resistance to damage, tactical damage and dots make us too squishy in endgame raids or PvMP
    3) Please, ask to game designers to don't make every mob immune to CC/FM/slow/etc... If everything is immune to a Burglar, Burglars only can DPS (red line). And scale FMs... FMs now are often ignored like a waste of time.

    Good luck for your job, you need it
    Last edited by Teg.; Apr 08 2013 at 04:42 AM.
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  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    A few general things I agree with and have been attempting to address:
    1. Lack of survivability – Both general survival and panic buttons are in need of some love
    2. Speed of attacks – Yup, we definitely have some anim issues that hinder the flow of combat.
    3. Cool mechanics that lack definition – Tricks, Gambles and the Crit Chain need some fine tuning
    4. Legendaries that are less than Legendary
    Does point 1 regard the HiPS cooldown? If not:



    And I saw some post about burglar's advantage slowing down dps, anyone else chuckled there as well?
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  23. #223
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    Feb 2013
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    While you are at it - fix burglar trick spam exploit, please.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  24. #224
    I've been re-reading this thread and thought I might as well tally up the frequency of the various suggestions just for interests sake, here's the top suggestions from the community:

    #1 (by a large margin) survivability / squishness / mitigations.

    #2 MM stance / trait line.

    #3 conjunctions.

    #4 not so legendary legacies.

    #5 useless traits or skills.

    #6 rotation speed / using Addle to cut FB.

    Good to see in a post from Kelsan that most of these have already been identified as areas for improvement.

    (Yes I am sad, and yes it's been a very slow day at work today!)

  25. #225
    Hey Kelsan,

    just my two (three) cents:

    1. Tricks:
    - "Enrage" is still useless to me, never used it on a raid or pvmp...
    - "Clever Retort": Great skill if you like gambling but please reduce the decay time

    2. Burgle: I agree with my previous speakers!

    3. Generally it´s quiet sad that more and more the "Gamblers" and "Mischief-Makers" became redundant. Burglars have been degraded to DD´s...some riddles, some conjunctions, revealing weakness, counter defence, addle --> maximum damage and that´s it ..where´s the challenge?
    Chieftain Todespudel / Poodle of Death
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