It seems to me that the Battle of Erebor is designed to exclude Burglars. A boss who has 75% melee mitigation and after a few ticks of inferno no more Burglar, without consuming massive amounts of healer effort.
It seems to me that the Battle of Erebor is designed to exclude Burglars. A boss who has 75% melee mitigation and after a few ticks of inferno no more Burglar, without consuming massive amounts of healer effort.
While there are many good potential changes and things that could be improved, the one MUST right now is mitigations. Survivability is too general, mitigations are 100% the problem. Any burglar who has been doing Saruman and now trying Erebor t2c will understand. With the will change we are very far behind light armour classes and we are melee as well. Hunters can sort of understand but they are range so its much less of a problem.
Also i've always thought a skill that shares a cooldown with TnG except helps with tact mit would be a great addition. Think people have been asking for this for 5 years but its still a great suggestion.
Inferno is a tactical mitigation problem. The thing that sucks is the dmg is based on % of your morale as well, so you can't even stack morale.
In inferno, even with reasonable tactical mitigation keeping a Burglar alive is a fairly busy job for a healer and if the last boss is the one with melee mitigation why would they bother as the burglar isn't contributing. Basically it's pretty much a suicide mission.
I guess I'm a little surprised by a couple of responses about the Enrage skill. This is one of my favorite burg skills and is extremely useful in certain situations. I wouldn't suggest any drastic changes to it.
The skill is very powerful. Aside from a mob with nasty special attacks, for the most part an enraged mob is better than CC. It's not going to do serious harm to anyone by hitting one of 6 people in the fellowship for a single attack, then running to a different target. The mob can be attacked, AOE'd etc. without breaking the effect (unlike CC).
-One improvement I would suggest is some kind of obvious visual on an enraged mob. (glowing red or whatever). I know it appears as a debuff, but it's sometimes hard to spot. A graphic would keep the tank from getting confused when he loses threat and a mob starts attacking random fellowship members.
(The traited version is awesome...what tank wouldn't like a burglar to round up all the annoying ranged mobs and pack them into a nice little melee ball that's easy to control and the champs can AOE down?)
One further suggestion....in the Gambler trait line, I'd potentially like to see something else besides the mez with MD that we get with the 4-trait bonus, or maybe just something additional. Riddle is almost always enough CC and we have other options if it isn't. I'd rather see something like a bigger bleed, or a really wicked debuff.
Last edited by spoctordoc; Mar 11 2013 at 02:26 PM.
Last edited by xDementedx; Mar 11 2013 at 01:27 PM.
I had actually forgotten about the 5% ranged damage. The interesting element to me is taking a mob and causing it to distribute it's damage across the fellowship.
In fact, maybe that's a rough idea for a modification to the skill. Instead of switching aggro, it turns it's attacks into some sort of distributed damage or a weak AOE. (kind of like the fire boss attack in SG).
Last edited by spoctordoc; Mar 11 2013 at 02:39 PM.
Meanwhile, 10% of that tact/ranged damage is due to you if you are traited and keep Reveal Weakness up. Counter Defense meanwhile effectively improves everyone's Finesse as well as increasing their crits, so those ranged/tactical DPSers do more damage if your burgness is up.
When both bosses are up, keep Disable on one not being attacked if that's your group's strategy, the healer on that tank will appreciate you helping out there, as the Finesse reduction and reduced damage are noticeable to healers.
I agree that there are ranged fights burgs have limited contributions to, but Battle for Erebor isn't one of them IMO.
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the inferno is probably the only instance in the game were less moral is better. Put on all your DPS gear go full glass cannon. Tac mit will not help you either.
The effect of the debuff is a raw % of moral and the less moral you have the easier you are to heal. So this instance is very burg friendly the other 2 are anti burg.
This tells me tact mit does help.
(apologies for being off-topic here)
Kelsan, do you have your analysis yet?
Miradhor, R12 100 Burglar of Firefoot
Would it be rude of me to suggest that chests at the end of 12 man instances should only be able to be opened by burglars?
Oh and it would be nice to have a new skill that gives us full invisibility for a maximum of 3-5 seconds (with a 30 second cooldown), so as a large creature throws out massive aoe damage we can simply hide and fully mitigate it. In other words, add some twitch based skills to our class.
*bows, turns and scurries back into the shadows*
Last edited by drongo; Mar 15 2013 at 09:25 PM.
Forgot to talk about provoke - could this be looked at again? It's a nice idea and is theoretically a key skill, but as it stands it seems a little underwhelming as an aggro tool (the stun is great though). Perhaps if the aggro effect was quantified more clearly I'd have more confidence with it.
And could you look again at Mischief stance and decide if it serves any purpose in the current game? Its main function seems to be to make sure we pay a smallish dps price for being able to lockdown a mob with riddle. Looking at other classes, is that still necessary for balance? I don't know.
'Stealth or CC, but not both' isn't making levelling more fun, either, but I suppose it'd take a bit of the shine off gamble mezzes if anyone could lockdown a mob anytime.
Anyway, I'd say change Mischief stance to something that boosts the strength (not duration) of debuffs, not something we need to use riddle effectively. Yellow, our debuff line (it's where all the tricks are), should be an option for stealthy soloers too.
Welcome! Very nice to get some attention; last year we had no interaction with devs in this forum.
I love the burg class. I've been playing one as my main since beta. Please don't change it too much!
1) FMs should be improved. They were one of the most innovative concepts in LotRO. I would suggest two main improvements.
a) Potentially an easy change. Remove the delay where everyone is frozen if (and only if) the group pulls-off the pre-selected
FM. So if the group leader selects Chill of Bone, and the group gets it, it triggers immediately. (It's a pretty simple concept, but there's a thread I started about this in the Suggestions forum if you want more details.)
b) Add a lot more FMs. There should be FMs to achieve all sorts of effects. We have Cure Wounds now, but only for a few 6-long FMs. It would be nice if we had some for 3-long or 5-long or whatever the group size is. If you have a small fellowship, they should be able to produce at least some of these effects. Cure Wound/Disease/Poison/Fear. Add buffs, add hope, debuff the target, lay down an AoE, etc. There's really no limit to what could be added.
2) Improve Mounted Combat. Currently, all I ever do is my one good hit from behind for 10k or so, and then use my dismount skills. I have a handful of 85s, and burg MC is the worst.
3) Consider adding in some other rogue-ish skills, such as Disarm (mobs can do it, why can't we?), Lockpick and even some kind of revive. I'm not suggesting burgs compete with minis/LMs/captains, but it might be nice to let us recover from a near-wipe by HiPsing, and then reviving a mini (ala WoW jumper cables). You could limit it to out-of-combat, and slow induction, a chance to fail, whatever. Just let us save the mini a run-back once in a while.
Overall, I really like the feel of the class. I've played rogues in many many games, and LotRO is the best overall. The things I like about it are: burst DPS, DoTs, positional tactics, stealth, evading damage (though that needs to be improved). All of these give the class a very unique feel.
And this isn't about improving the class per se, but the perception of the class. I think Turbine could have some quests that make us more useful. We used to be in-demand for the Turtle, before Enrage was blocked. We still are needed for opening FMs in Draigoch, that's good. But I'd like to see some quests where stealth could be used (optionally) to save time. Maybe stealth past some guards, and use pick-pocket to get a key to open another route. Save the party 10 minutes instead of having to clear all the trash or whatever.
Last edited by Beleg; Mar 17 2013 at 09:21 PM.
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HIPS definitely needs to override tracking. As soon as I hit it, I got tracked...
What's the use of the skill with such a long cooldown when it's overrid with a simple tracking, which in 99% cases ends up with my death afterwards?
Trait trees have ruined the game
and yes, this is coming from a full time burg who has dumped all other alter egos to focus on the class he loves the most...
burgLAR for lifez....
my 2-3 cents regarding future updates to class to follow...
1. it is unacceptable that burglar is the ONLY CLASS with out AOE.....Knives out, 3 target skill that must be combined with aim and position on all 3 targets on a 2 minute cooldown with 1 reset on 20-30 minute cooldown as well as another thats on a 5-10 minutes cooldown which requires successful completion of a FM (which has been nerfed into the dirt seeing as how a single class can out dps the damage done by ANY 6 person FM within the same period it takes for all 6 people to contribute...ya... knives out as "a burglars AOE damage" .... it aint right....
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Suggestion: Guardians have 2 skills they can use following their initial response indicators for parry and block, why not give the burglar a similar option within its crit chain?
for instance: Give us 2 paths for our crit chain!!!! 1 path for single target dps, and the 2nd path for aoe, it can be a 2 part path, for instance, BA and DES can remain single target (please lower cooldown on DES to 4.5 sec, or have its cooldown trigger immediately so its 2nd use isnt so delayed)
and the "legendary skills" (as mentioned before they need some love) can still be used after the single target crit chain, as well as the the AOE crit chain....
BA can be single target, add new single target skill (2 single target skills within its own chain)
DES can be AOE, add new aoe taget skill (2 aoe target skills within its own chain)
both are unlocked via crit response, and are on shorter cooldowns (3 seconds), and upon use, unlock the legendaries, (make them skills, and add new legendaries please.) and lower legendary cooldowns to 6 seconds (so we can still go back and forth in our crit chain,
crit response portion of the new critchains can be as follows
single target: -crit respone- Burglars advantage, (new single target skill here) exposed throat >> increased damage,
aoe targets: -crit response- double edged strike, (new aoe target skill here) flashing blades >> 3 targets enhanced up to 5-8 targets via legacy
each of the chains upon unlocking of the crit ender can then proceed to EITHER legendary ender,
depending on the route you would go if you were inspired to tweak the crit response... a new skill or two may be warranted.
now i realize this change would present new problems, but the reason for the thread is to think outside the box and inspire new ideas
obviously some skill consolidation will need to be done with some respect (for example, see other suggestions regarding twist altering based on trick removed) which could potentially do some cool things hen combined with an overhaul on the twist's and tricks (see numerous posts on twists being altered by type of trick removed)
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2. Legacy consolidation, 2 legacies devoted to subtle stab????? really???? that seems pretty lazy to me, i mean the only legacy that affects the burglar globally (dps wise) is the crit response damage legacy (im talking about weapon legacies, tools legacies dont seem to terrible although, class revamp may trigger the need for changes to the tools legacies as well)
3. all female characters shouldve received flowers in there mail on valentines day, your wives should be ashamed devs...ASHAMED.....
Last edited by Doom4435; Mar 18 2013 at 02:02 PM.
Since U10, I've had some additional thoughts and concerns in regards to future class updates/balance on both a PvE and PvP level.
The power and crit changes have made more of an impact on the Burglar class than perhaps initially perceived. In addition, with BFPs, DPS/HP passive bonuses have made a significant impact on PvP and more importantly, Burglar build. My concern lies with us ending up in the LM/Mini/Wrdn category, should the tweaking to our defensive skillset go too far.
I - KO - The duration of KO and the CD allows the skill to be powerful but in a limited and regulated fashion. As such, I think a minor tweak to KO's defense to include both Ranged/Tactical would be a drastic improvement in both PvE and PvP. The PvP set allows KO to be an incredibly powerful defensive and offensive skill. And so a quad-fecta of Tri-Damage Mitigation and a reflective stacking DoT (ticks of 600x3 crit) would push a skill into, for lack of a better phrase, loller category. I don't expect a KO bonus set in future updates, thought it would be nice, so the last statement might be moot by then. A tactical mitigation boost to TnG might be too much considering the 30s duration of TnG. [Which has been mentioned previously].
I trust that you have taken into account recent changes and will adjust accordingly but I did want to amend my initial post to reflect thoughts after the current update.
Last edited by BrittainTheCommie; Mar 19 2013 at 12:08 AM.
Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.
I would just like for that skill to do what it says it does: "Briefly undetectable in stealth "
Or description of the skill should be changed.
Yesterday, when I hit hips, the weaver's pet was still running after me (I hear that problem exists for some time now).
and no, I have never cared about the ratings, I just don't like being zerged.
Trait trees have ruined the game
I hope we don't get AoE, sorry. High Single Target burst dps and lots of useful debuffs please. Just my 2 cents on the identity of the class.
A hobbit stabbing you behind the knee and throwing dust in your face? Ok that works, well enough anyway. A hobbit leaping into the air, spinning round and slicing through multiple orcs? Nope.
No disrespect to Manburgs, just an opinion.
As far as the spider pet bug, given how long this bug has existed I wouldn't hold out much hope that it gets fixed anytime soon. Just try and get a slow/stun/mez or kill the spider pet before you hips if any of those options are available to you.
Turwe-1, Crickhollow ~ Alakra, Meneldor ~ Snuke, Meneldor ~ Suge-1, Brandywine
Hello Kelsan and welcome!!
Lots of interesting inputs from many people that I agree with most of them and glad that the majority of them is already beeing looked upon.I will try and analyze stuff a bit more here though.I am mainly a pve burglar but with experience from pvp too.I will mainly talk about pve though.Also excuse me for typos and grammar mistakes I am not a native english speaker.
What do I want to see changed mainly:
a) Survivability issues After U10 light classes(all ranged classes) have their tactical mitigations maxed out and we as a melee class should have at least an option to improve our defences.I disagree with a change as it was made with the bonus to mitigations coming from one of the stats like will contributing to tact.mitigation.
b) Mischief Maker trait line I know that with the release of RoR devs wanted to make that trait line a bit more interesting but still it needs a bit more love
c) Fellowship Manoeuvres . I play the burg for 3 years now,I am not old enough to remember how it was with SoA but old enough to say that FMs need some love again and revamp.
Minor changes like fixing animations,bleeds etc will be noted as well but these 3 first please.So here it goes:
Cunning Wound: Remove the bleed damage bonus and make the trait give a bonus for a stacking CA and WPS for a 50% chance both.That beeing said remove completely the legacy CA bleed stack chance.Also give the bleed damage bonus to both WPS and CA as a passive.
Sharp Wit. Sharp Blade Increase the threat bonus given from the trait to +70% instead of 50%.That is not mandatory or it might not change much but it might make people start using the legacy for the provoke up threat and act a bit more supporting to the group.
Spatial Sence Leave it as it is plus it now removes the induction of Well Placed Strike or it brings it down to 0.2s
Strategic Planning First of all make LiE a buff that will last 10s.The trait will be prolonging the duration for another 10-15s providing the same bonuses to the potitional damage but it will now decrease the cd -60s not 120s.Imagine it like a burn hot for burgs.
Strike from shadows This trait might want to change as well,providing maybe some more crit hit chance for SS and CA or it could make SS consume CA bleeds and depending on how many stacks a target had on him SS would do greater damage for an amount.
Honed Wit As a gambler burg we really need Clever Retort out of mischief.Also for the trait make the cd down to -60s instead of -30s.We know that a burglar can apply a debuffing gamble from Clever Retort and maintain it with gambler's strike for at maximum 30s.So now having CR in 1m cd would make debuffing a matter of actual gambling actually,"should I pick the first 30s of a fight to debuff him or should I wait for more?". Untill now I feel burgs were just randomly applying CR when it was up or even worse they were applying it when they needed some kind of morale or power restore which for a gambler that's a bit of overlooking the actual reason of having that skill there. If you see that Clever Retort becomes quite spammable from MM or QK burgs and gambler's just swap the 2 blue bonuses for CR with the 3 set for Startling twist.
Overwhelming Odds As I will mention later as well,we will need a bit of revamp with the FMs and make them again interesting in group play.For that reason I could see that trait providing specific bonuses depending who hit what color. If someone would hit red that would provide +10% increase to his outgoing dmg for 15s.-10% power skill cost for blue,-5% att duration for yellow and +10% inc healing for green.
Swift and Subtle Increase the amount of resistances are debuffed from the target or just make a new defensive bonus that would increase the crit defence of the burglar by 1.500.
for the Legendaries (before I go to MM trait line):
Stick and Move: Provides now +3% partial evade and parry chance, + 15% (or even 20%) partial evade and parry mitigation.Alternative: Provides now +2.000 crit defence, +15% or 20% partial evade and parry mitigation.
Little Annoyances Quite a Snag will now provide +5% incoming damage and a 5-10% revealing mark on the target,just like cappies have one.We won't be getting a 15% percentage just like they do but I want it to see it implemented as a true legendary skill for a trait line that is neglected and is meant for support.
Flashing Blades Fix the animation as almost all said,or consider adding a third attack into it from off hand
Sweep the Leg Reduces the cd of Trip by 30s,makes it usable out of stealth and improves FM to Improved FM (which I will explain later what it is).
Mischief Maker trait line
Let's start saying what we want to get from a mischief burglar.I'd say first of all we need to compensate the loss of the burg's dps in a raid if he would have been in a raid as qk or even gambler.Adding another 2% at Little Annoyances for reveal weakness is something that would exchange that.It becomes a little bit more interesting to have a Reveal Weakness now with a 15% inc damage instead of 10%. Yeah I know with 2 burgs in yellow trait line and a cappy that might escalate to a 30+10% inc damage =40% inc damage untill the mob is dead but I am insisting you are losing great dps from a burglar that way as he will be mostly in other roles than focusing on dps.
Also make counter defence to persist with 4 yellow traited (a bit like a minstrel's anthems) so a burg can have up to two tricks on one target without having more than 2 as "defensive" but 1 defensive and 1 offensive.
Make Riddle mez up to 2 targets with 5 yellow traits.
Trickster will now affect 5 instead of 3 targets when traited.
Change the devastating critical buff for yellow and make it be a buff that will reduce the power cost of both tricks and trick removals.Or alternative give Complicated Terms bonuses to the dev crit buff bonus and have Complicated Terms provide some other kind of tricky bonus,like a debuff -40% att duration when a target shakes off a mez.
Cure Poison could be further have a decreased cd down to 15s when traited 5 yellow instead of 20s.
Improved Confound: I will disagree with most peeps,we want people to come back to mischief stance and use it more rather than use Mischief's stance skills out of it.I'd say keep Confound usable in Mischief with a longer range and make it daze 1 target instantly.If you want to make the legacy be interesting as well,have it increase the number of targets dazed instantly by a maximum number of 3.Alternative make the daze be a root,but imo it would be better not to roam into a LM's path that much having all kind of cc options.
Mischief stance will now provide a bonus to armour and this armour will be provided only with 4 or 5 yellow traits equipped.I am thinking a 1.500 armour bonus with an extra bonus to 1.500 tactical and physical mitigations.Not greater than a warg has in moors but something to protect us as we run around debuffing and mezzing stuff in raids beeing a support class.I would not add those bonuses to quite knife and gambler playstyle though as it might become OP in the long run and us beeing viewed as heavies.My armour rating as a burg now is at aproximmately at 5.300 with an average champ beeing at 6.800.
I'd like to see an improved version of FMs that can be casted on raid bosses and they can only be triggered by trip.The boss would adapt after that though untill it's dead for further attempts to hit an IFM (Improved Fm).An IFM will have the same effects as a FM,it only changes the fact that no one can trigger it than a burglar in some certain fights! If that happens burglars will have to execute special FMs with trip that might turn the tables of a fight.
Also consider adding more kind of FMs or improve the bonuses the currents are providing.
Also Beleg mentioned couple posts above and I totally agree with this:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~Remove the delay where everyone is frozen if (and only if) the group pulls-off the pre-selected
FM. So if the group leader selects Chill of Bone, and the group gets it, it triggers immediately.
Other changes I would like to see implemented:
Safe Fall reduced cd to 15s if not a passive.I know I might ask a lot if this is going to be a passive but at least reduce it's cd.I guess burgs need some alternative escape moves in moors than hips.I am not voting for reducing hips cd btw.Maybe make the legacy reduce it 2 more minutes than 3 for a 5m final cd.
Reduced cd for marbles/Stun Dust down to 5m at least.Stun Dust is dusting my bags as I never use them!
Make Serrated Knives a skill with 3 fast attacks or 2 fast +1.That would be totally great.No need to make it still removing corruptions btw.Even guardians have a ranged attack,we want one too!!
Make knives out reflect all sources of damage and prolong it for 15s instead of 10s.
Concerning adding AoEs skills that could be nice but please I don't want to see us turned into champs,maybe in the future if devs can add a skill like a "short range daggers aoe" move that would be nice. For LoL fans Katarina's Death Lotus skill is what I am thinking of
Aim cd legacy make it reduce the seconds by a maximum of 30s not 10s.It's not worth slotting it now imo in any weapon not to mention it's a major legacy.
Sneak Movement Speed legacy potentially increase it to contribute +15% sneak speed not 10% mainly for moors reasons.
These are all I can think of now,I am happy I found a corner to express my thoughts on those,some changes I suggested might be too much but I really tried to keep it low and ask for minor changes that can change how the class is viewed a lot!
I am looking forward to any changes on our class,especially on the mischief maker trait line!We still want to see more out of that!
[color=teal]Imla: Amatheon,Tunefast, Ataraxia Landy: Beerro, Graben, Delunes, TheBeard [/color]
[color=red]Imla: Koproskylo, Bogbleed, Cheeseball Landy: Klasompanieras [/color]
[url=http://tinyurl.com/okag2y8]Give FB and DES some love[/url]
1) bow use. No fancy skills associated with it, "let fly" like guard and champs is just fine.
2) survivability... Others have commented on this extensively, and I hope it gets looked at.
3) not much more to add; everyone else has covered everything I can think of
-Exe of Silverlode
Warden - Champion - Captain
although this has been mentioned already i want to mentioned it again. The fact that spider pets attack you after HIPS is absurd.
I find myself not willing to use the skill (HIPS) when trying to run away from a spider(s) (it is a waste). Sure death when u have HIPS up is crazy and should not happen.
Obviously there are a lot of things that could be improved/fixed (some great posts/feedback/suggestions in this thread) but this bug annoys my the most.
Last edited by Sellene; Mar 20 2013 at 12:42 PM.
Again, lots of great info here. Much appreciated.
As far as whether I have an analysis done- yes. The initial analysis was completed before this post was made. The feedback gathered here is being used to validate/adjust the analysis and the proposed design for the revamp.
I'll share more information as soon as I can, but for now we don't want to influence the thread.
Last edited by Legonist; Mar 20 2013 at 08:08 PM.
The end of an age has come and the wheel of time turns on. We will meet again when the wheel allows it.
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