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  1. #26
    Animations - A lot of our skills need to have their animations looked at and changed to better flow with our crit chain. Surprise strike from stealth and flashing blades are painfully long, Subtle Stab should be changed to a fast skill, surprise strike, cunning attack and feint attack are ok but they seem to have a long after animation delay, and I really think Aim should be immediate. And I'm sure there's several other skills that I'm missing but these are the major ones.

    Fellowship maneuvers
    1st buff the damage from guile and strength.
    2nd Allow players to continue using skills and to move while the FM is taking place.
    3rd Allow the burg to select and change selected colors.

    Legendary traits should be legendary
    Flashing Blades - Add a 3rd attack and make each attack do an extra 750 damage for every Cunning Attack bleed effect on target.
    Exposed Throat - Change to proc a conj on crit.
    Sweep the Leg - Change the stun to a knockdown. Also - The will not break stealth effect doesn't work on mobs with a reflect.
    Stick and move - This is kinda worthless at lvl cap as most burg have no problem problem opening their crit chain and +1% PARTIAL evade chance is &&&& at best... I think the trait should be revamped to a skill that looks something like this:

    Skill: Fight or Flight.
    Description: When surrounded by enemies you most choose to fight or to flee into the shadows
    Max targets: 5
    3s Stun
    sets run speed to 135%
    Duration: 30s
    Removes stun/daze/root/fear/slow effects
    Duration: 10s
    Cooldown: 2 Minutes.

    And a few random thoughts:

    KO should reduce/reflect all damage types.
    Burglar's Antidote should be usable while moving.
    HIPS should last 15s to allow for easier escape and needs its CD slightly reduced.
    Find Footing needs a lower CD and a bigger morale restore (maybe give it a KO effect instead of a TnG effect)
    Gamblers should be able to reach -5% Stealth Run Speed too.
    More -% attack duration please.
    A speed buff skill/sprint would be awesome.
    Last edited by chekersftw; Feb 25 2013 at 03:47 PM. Reason: How did I forget flashing blades?
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  2. #27
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    I'm going to make 1 huge sweeping suggestions to the mechanism of burgs. please consider at least

    tier debuffs:

    debuffs teir up from 1-6 on the tricks (like gambles but I'll come to that)
    jiggle the debuffs abit so there are more skills to apply same level potency. for example;

    trick1 - increases inc crit chance
    trick2 - decrease melee damage
    trick3 - decrease attack duration
    trick4 - decrease finesse
    trick5 - decrease b/p/e
    trick6 - decrease tactical damage (remove from addle)

    these last 10s and the cooldown on all tricks are shared to 4 seconds. so you have 2 on with a 1second gap for each one. these teir down too. so hit trick1+trick1+trick1 and you'd have teir3 trick1. give it 10 seconds and it'd then teir down to tier 2 and so on. you could effectively keep up 2 debuffs to teir 6 given a short time and and short gaps won't suffer huge lose.

    the main reason for this is to give mischeif -25% trick power cost a bigger impact on your rotation, tricks do no damage and therefore applyable on stunned targets. I'll touch on the dps side later.

    trick removal skills... these would be removed. SWEEEEEPPPPINGGG SUGGESTION!!! instead you'd have a gambit style, 1 skill that removals your tricks. to open up doors of lodes of different possibilities. depending on teir depends on the potency of the removal. this skill would have a 10second cooldown

    trick1 - increases crit chance 20secs. 1-6%
    trick2 - hot (pulse every 3s for 18s) potency range from 400-2.4k total heal
    trick3 - stun 2-3-4-6-7-8secs
    trick4 - increase mitigations (both) 3-5-7-9-11-13% for 15s
    trick5 - increase parry 3-5-7-9-11-13% for 15s
    trick6 - power over time (pulse every 3s for 18s) potency range from 200-1.2k totle heal (probebly too big)

    now the huge difference between gambler and MM here. is gambler is made to make use of even quicker teiring these up. blue trait line reducing the shared cooldown (and trick removal) by 2secs! and MM increasing duration by 8secs :O

    this is focus gambler on more defencive attributes and solo style. in group this would account to hitting tricks down quicker. while MM likes to apply them and keep them on for the rest of the group to love the debuffs (like an LM debuffer line. keeping debuffs on constant) because the buffs on trick removal aren't that desirable in group

    -------------lets have a breather for a sec before I fix SOME of the broken parts I've made-------------

    dust in eyes - becomes a stand alone skill with 20second cooldown and 20second duration. it goes back to being one debuff. so if the mob is immune to slow it's immune to the 20% miss chance too.

    enrage - enrages foe for 20secs (provoke removes enrage) resets aggro on use. *huge gasp* but a burg can't do that... I would love burg to have some special, why not? this would be amazing tactic for people to start playing with?

    gamblers strike - chance to teirs all tricks on target to 6. 5min cd. blue capstone reduces it to 1m30s (45sec with legacy)

    lucky strike - gets deleted!!!

    --------------------------------------------end--------------------------------------------

    this change in it's self is extreme! although I'd love to add more of this to the damage side I really feel like I could of broken all rotations people have anyway xD hopefully a QK burg will read this and see QK won't be able to debuff as well as a MM/gambler burg, and burgs will have a viable new play style in raids instead of a derp roll face melee dps class thats squishy.

    if you managed to read all this mr.dev thank you I would add a second more nurfing side to LI's simply because currently to be a high class burg you need a wep for each trait and +1 for dotting. seems unfair tbh

    anyway. hope this fills critia of more skill to skill rotation tactics and much less skills but more potency in variety.

  3. #28
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    PS shorten the animation on Flashing Blades (at least get rid of the animated yet nonexistent third strike)
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by xDementedx View Post

    3) Change the skill into a fast skill (it is a legendary after all)
    This!

  5. #30
    1. Playing a burglar in the moors is miserable. Please change this.
    2. We are way too squishy. Burglars generally have less mits than light armor classes and not much opportunity for any kind of critical defense.
    3. Fix traitlines. Plethora of useless traits, including legendaries.
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  6. #31


    1. SURVIVABILITY

    -As the squishiest melee class, I suggest a small boost to raw mitigations.
    -Being a "pushed-into-the-battle-without-his-own consent" type of character, and not a "born-for-war" type such as the guardian, champion, warden, I expect my class to be more wary and avoid attacks more efficiently than other classes. Since "evade" seems to be useless in PvMP, I suggest switching from evade/parry/block to simply "miss", since "miss" would work against those pesky tacticals who just laugh as we try -and fail- to evade their attacks. Same thing with shadow wargs.
    -Our ultimate survival skills need to be reworked! Touch and go, find footing, Knives out, even HIPS is broken!
    1.Touch and go might keep you alive for what, 10 extra seconds?
    2.Find footing heal is too low, wargs don't even care about stunning me anymore since their shadow damage hits through my evades anyway.
    3.Knives out should return all attack types, not only melee attacks.
    4.HIPS NEEDS to be fixed so we can't get tracked during the 10sec immunity, and Weaver pets SHOULDN'T be able to continue attacking us after we HIPS.

    Conclusion:

    - Small buff to mitigations
    - Switch E/P/B to Miss or something similar to make our avoiding % superior to other classes who can take the hits.
    - Change evade buff % for miss buff % on T.N.G and Find footing. Boost Find footing heal to 50% of total morale. Fix HIPS bugs, make knives out usable against tactical and ranged attacks.

    2. DPS

    - Fix Flashing blades animation time.
    - Add a DoT to exposed throat.
    - Make Well-place strike instant (keep the animation, but allow it to be used on the move) and buff the DoT damage when not in position.

    3. DEBUFFING

    Make enrage more useful in some way.
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  7. #32

    Top 3 Burglar Needs

    Welcome Kelsan, it's great to have you here!

    All of these needs have been mentioned, but I'll reiterate so another voice is heard:

    1. Survivability: In raids, as a medium-armour melee class, we are often one-shotted by trash mobs. Perhaps burg mitigations and/or critical defense need some tweaking to address this?

    2. Trait / skill fixing, particularly legendary traits: Flashing Blades is the only trait that seems "legendary," and it's long post-animation requires burgs to use Addle in order to maintain reasonable DPS. Some other skills that seem under-whelming are Knives Out (which has all kinds of potential, but little in-game value right now), Well-Placed Strike (insanely long animation makes it very difficult to apply), and Confound (delayed daze is difficult to pull off successfully).

    3. Make FM's usable and more useful: What used to be in important aspect of Burglar group play has sadly been left by the wayside. Many bosses are FM immune, and even when the FM is successful, its effects seem pretty underwhelming.

    Thank you for listening!
    Last edited by Mithrad; Feb 25 2013 at 05:12 PM.

  8. #33
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    I just had an idea for a really simple way to fix squishiness:

    What if medium armor classes had a new combat effect: "dodge". There could be partial dodges, too. Calculated from agility in the exact same way as evade is currently. Dodge would ONLY apply to harmful skills NOT targeted at the player (so it wouldn't really be a buff for tanking wardens or burglars or hunters who pull aggro) and would simply improve the survivability of burglars, hunters and DPS wardens by giving them a way to avoid AoE mob damage. DoT effects would not be dodge-able of course and would be dealt with as they are now - via resistance and mitigations.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delaney View Post
    I like the free-form trait system we have much, much better than the strict trees the mounted combat system uses. If we had to trait our characters to conform with a pre-set tree, it would devastate the ability to customize one's character to match with one's playstyle. This would be a huge loss. It's not the trait system itself that isn't working right now, but some of the traits/lines within it.
    .
    So this sentiment is something that has come up each time we've mentioned the concept of Talent Trees and I think you've clearly outlined where the concerns stem from.

    The only Trees currently in LotRO are the Mounted Combat trees which are linear and restrictive. This design makes perfect sense for a system that is exclusive to a small level band and limited by encounter type. With this as the current example of Trees, it is a logical assumption that should we move classes to a Tree system that it would be very similar.
    All I can say is that, our classes are much more complex and hinge on player choice. Our experiments in Trees have been to support/encourage player experimentation in both specialization and generalization.

  10. #35
    Really the only way a tree system would work is if it was as easily manageable and changeable as the trait system. If you need different skills/boosts for a given instance or quest you can easily adjust your legendary traits at a bard to adapt to the situation. If the trees are more like the war horse traits that isn't as easy. Sure you have two builds for the war horse you can switch between, but I would hate to lose the ability to adapt to the situations I find myself in.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    So this sentiment is something that has come up each time we've mentioned the concept of Talent Trees and I think you've clearly outlined where the concerns stem from.

    The only Trees currently in LotRO are the Mounted Combat trees which are linear and restrictive. This design makes perfect sense for a system that is exclusive to a small level band and limited by encounter type. With this as the current example of Trees, it is a logical assumption that should we move classes to a Tree system that it would be very similar.
    All I can say is that, our classes are much more complex and hinge on player choice. Our experiments in Trees have been to support/encourage player experimentation in both specialization and generalization.
    I don't want to derail the discussion, but I am very curious as to whether this tree system will migrate to creepside. Now... back to the interesting burbler suggestions.


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  12. #37
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    1- Change the formula that increases partial evade based on the agility stat. Give the burglar the feel of a melee finesse class that can narrowly avoid the full dmg of attacks by partially evading more often. This means an average partial evade ratio perhaps double of what current evade stats are at(~40%partial). Meaning partial evades would happen much more frequently then a full evade...negating some dmg and giving the feel of receiving glancing blows do to the burglars ''agility''. Seems like the most logical way to boost survivability of the class while maintaining a medium armor melee fighter feel without altering mitigations, or how certain skills in pve and pvp negate avoidances. Side note that hunters could receive the same treatment in regards to parry. Wardens the same for parry and evade but at a lesser ratio.

    2- Add some more trick removals or make traitlines have a more noticeable affect on what a trick removal can do. Allow more choice for players. Allow burgs to think more about what removals to use and when by combining distinct buffs or debuffs in relation to traitlines. Example being a trick removal that wipes slows and either stealths and/or provides a speed boost to the burg for 3sec but breaks immediately after 3secs, or on any skill use(45sec cd).

    3- Rework the +positional dmg formula for the burglar. Alter the maximum dmg output potential of the burglar more drastically to require being behind a target for biggest gains. Overall providing less dmg when fighting toe to toe, but rewarding the burglar much more for maintaining and repositioning during combat. This should tie into the burglar play as a whole and not be solely increased by particular traits or traitlines. Traits or traitlines could still enhance position dmg by a smaller amount.
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  13. #38
    Hi Kelsan, here are my thoughts on the Burglar class:
    1) Serrated Knives -> update to remove a corruption without consuming a trick. Also, have it do more damage and have the cool down now 30 seconds.
    2) Caltrops -> reduce cool down from 10 minutes to 1 minute. Allow for non-common damage to be crafted. Pull in DoT time form 30 seconds to 20 seconds and adjust the damage accordingly.
    3) Stun Dust -> reduce cooldown from 10 minutes to 1 minute.
    4) Throwing Hatchet -> for a 10 second cool down increase the damage times 3.
    5) Marbles -> reduce the cooldown from 15 minutes to 5 minutes to make it inline with exploit opening.

    Note: consumables need to have their CD reduced to work them into our rotation. Also, this will open up a market on the AH where none existed.

    6) Crafted Tailor signals give bonus to burglars when clever retort is used as well.
    7) Exposed Throat is a legendary skill, create a legacy to increase the FM proc percentage by 1-9%.
    8) Flashing Blades needs to do legendary damage. Increase damage or have this auto crit.
    9) Cunning attack, have it auto stack like a Lore-master's burning embers and lose the legacy percentage proc.
    10) diversion -> reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds, this is to speed up killing trash mobs instead to standing there for a few more seconds waiting for the CD to go away.
    11) Overwhelming Odds -> (when completing a FM will empower the burglar) add completing clever retort to this as well.
    12) Dealings Done -> from +10% to +30% increase to all gambles.

    Sorry for the long list, however, i think more needs to be done.

    Thanks Kelsan.

  14. #39
    1 - Defensive Skills need to be seriously tweaked as most DPS from both PvE and PvP mobs have been converted from Melee Physical DPS to Melee Tactical DPS. In addition, HiPS CD for both PvE and PvP is considerably too long. 3m/5m is way too short and OP but in between would be a nice balance. The pace of combat has changed significantly but our CDs have not. (Please Note: KO in its current state is not OP or UP. I do not believe there needs to be much attention paid to KO).

    2- DPS Line needs to be more Stealth Focused (Footbad/LeafWalker/Etc.). If geared/traited/LI proper, our DPS is fine. I don't think we should be Tier 1 sustainable DPS nor do I think we should be trailing behind Minstrels/Guards in the DPS tiers, either.

    3 - Utility/Balanced Focus: Unfortunately, our combat/DPS focused expansions have resulted in a Burglar that has been lost in the DPS race shuffle. We were already a balanced, homogenized class that neither was best at anything but not the worst. Unfortunately, every class wanted to be able to do it all and as such, the Burglar was left to do nothing. At one time, we had unique tricks, unique utility skills, and a sense of balance. Please restore that.

    3a) Delete the Gambler Line.

    3b) Good Luck. I'm sure Zombie Columbus will tell you that I was his favourite.
    Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    So this sentiment is something that has come up each time we've mentioned the concept of Talent Trees and I think you've clearly outlined where the concerns stem from.

    The only Trees currently in LotRO are the Mounted Combat trees which are linear and restrictive. This design makes perfect sense for a system that is exclusive to a small level band and limited by encounter type. With this as the current example of Trees, it is a logical assumption that should we move classes to a Tree system that it would be very similar.
    All I can say is that, our classes are much more complex and hinge on player choice. Our experiments in Trees have been to support/encourage player experimentation in both specialization and generalization.
    Greetings Kelsan!

    Welcome to our Burglar outpost, wretched hive of scum and villainy that it is. Please make yourself at home, it is heartening to know we are receiving developer attention. You will find that though the Burglar is not the most played class, you have quite a community of knowledgeable players who really enjoy it, and want to continue to have more and more fun playing their Burglars.

    I echo these sentiments I have quoted above. A tree system sounds a bit distasteful to me, but if you implement it in such a way that it adds diversity and possibility rather than restricts it, you will find a great deal of support here I would wager.

    I will highlight 3 main issues, and then point out different ways they could be addressed. One idea that does not fit anywhere in the following categories is the idea of a resource mechanic. Think Focus, Fervour, or Venom Pips. You receive a benefit for building it up, such as resistance penetration, or B/P/E boost, however you can spend it to add some oomph to certain skills such as crit chain enders, or extended duration on Knives Out, or bonus magnitude on debuffs. This would add a bit of complexity and decision making to playing the Burglar, and could be quite fun.


    Utility

    - Identify ways that each skill can be activated in each stance and trait setup. Change the effects of the skill based on stance. Clever Retort is a great example of such a skill. It is very fun, very Burglary, and simply does not see the use it should. I feel Clever Retort should apply a fear for 5 seconds, this would give burglars, a crowd control class, access to each type of crowd control.

    -Safe Fall. Make it a passive trait. Instead allow the skill to make the burglar immune to hindering effects for 10 seconds. Allow this skill to be reset with Ready and Able.

    -Ready and Able. Make it an Immediate skill. Its a 30-20 minute cooldown, when you use it, you need it NOW!

    -Ranged Weapon Slot. Its time to do away with the Fellowship Maneuver insignias. Replace them with throwing daggers/hatchets, craftable by weaponsmiths. This gives the burglar a ranged auto attack, and you would have room to add a few skills, such as a hindering dagger, or a hatchet that applies a considerable bleed when struck from behind. Throwing weapon skills with a max range of 20-30 meters.

    -Address the legacy costs on weapons. Tools are fairly in line with other classes, but the Burglar weapon legacies are inordinantly more costly than most classes. Compare a top tier Champ sword with a Burglar sword for example.

    -Consider merging legacies which both impact the same skill, making room for new legacies to address some of the other concerns Burglars have.

    -Merge traits, such as Perplexing Riddle and Complicated Terms, or Cunning Would and Spatial Sense. This frees up room for new traits which address some of the other issues Burglars have.

    - Clever Devices. Consider removing these, or some of these, as consumables. Replace them with skills. Caltrops is a prime example. Allow it to be an AOE hotspot skill the Burglar drops on their current location. By merging some similar traits, you create room to add traits which impact the clever device related skills.

    -Consider fellowship maneuvers which apply meaningful debuffs, or add a meaningful group buff to everyone involved.

    -Please consider making the base, untraited Dust in the Eyes skill a 3 target AOE. The trait could then increase the number of targets, the magnitude of the snare, or the magnitude of the debuff.

    -Have a look at skills such as Escape Clause, and traits such as Overwhelming Odds, and Even the Odds. The nature of the game at this point does not support the use of traits and skills which rely on successfully completing a fellowship maneuver. That is fine, I don't know what your development goals are for Fellowship Maneuvers at this point. Consider doing something meaningful here.

    Survivability

    -Stick and Move. Consider making this a stance in and of itself, which functions in a way similar to Flayer Stance. Forgoing the benefits of Mischief or Quiet Knife or Gambler stance, the Burglar can receive an armor and mitigation boost. A stance for a build which uses no capstone.

    - The curve on which armor contributes to mitigations is not favorable to medium armor classes. (This impacts hunters as well, while wardens are able to self buff way past the point of being impacted by this) Consider adjusting this, so that it is feasible for a medium armor class to achieve near cap mitigations with the same effort a light armor class does.

    -Knives Out. Extend its effects to all damage types. If legacies or traits are merged, consider adding a legacy or trait for this skill.

    -Find Footing. Considerably boost the heal received from this skill. Double it, or more.

    - Allow agility to contribute to parry at the same rate it contributes to evade.

    - Find some way to give burglars access to a considerable amount of critical defense through traits, legacies, traitline bonuses, or a contribution from agility unique to the Burglar class.

    -Boost the efficacy of Mischeivous Delight. Allow the HOT/POT pulses from two MDs to stack, so we are able to get more value out of using the legacy which extends the duration of the pulses.


    Damage

    -PLEASE take a look at post animation delays on all non-fast melee skills to bring a greater flow to combat. This was done to the reaver class to great effect, and everyone I know who plays that class said it greatly improved the combat experience.

    -Flashing Blades. This issue has been raised many times so far in the thread, and there are a number of viable ways to address it.

    -Meaningful damage over time, please make it available. Allow crit chains skills that crit to apply a bonus bleed.

    -Well-placed Strike. Complete overhaul. Please, burglars do not need to have an induction based melee skill.


    These are some of my thoughts on how to make the Burglar more coherent as a class, and even more fun that it already is!

    Thank you Kelsan, I wish you well in this endeavor amigo.
    Last edited by Bhurgo_Burglefools; Feb 25 2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    We are experimenting with Trees so feedback inline with that concept would be fair game.
    May I ask why the conversion to Trees 6 Years into the game?

    Not only will it alienate a huge casual playerbase, as this game clearly has attracted, but it doesn't seem in-line with most of the base skillsets for LoTRO classes.

    Further, there will generally be one superior Tree Line to most classes (even RIFT, which has on-the-go Tree Line possibilities, has dominate Tree Lines that are arguably superior to everything else), so I don't really see why such an effort would be made. And again, 6 years into the game?
    Brittain. Fidel. KimJongIl.

  17. #42
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    Hello Kelsan /wave Welcome to the Burg forums.

    1: Survivability. Currently we are more squishy and harder for healers to keep alive in 6-man and 12-man instances then the light armor classes. A passive ability for some better mitigation or avoidance would be great.

    2: Make the stances more focused. QK is good as it is but I would like to see it put even more focus on off-hand damage and single target burst damage.

    MM needs some new traits and some of the traits need to be combined. I would love to see the 3 traits that increase the effect of Dust in the Eyes, Counter Defense and Disable combined into one trait. Then make 2 new traits, maybe ones that add a cool new debuff to an existing skill we have.

    3: Legendary Items. A better balance of the legacies that benefit each line. Make them really useful and feel like our item is 'legendary'. Examples: +5% QK crit/dev damage, +15 trick duration in MM, +10 Riddle duration in MM.

    4: Skill Animation: One of the biggest things that hurts our dps is the animation time on allot our skills. The burglar is more about hitting the small weakest spot on the enemy and some of our skills make us feel more like a champion just swinging around
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  18. #43
    Before I suggest anything, I'd like to know the scope of the revamp you are considering.

    If you are willing to completely dismantle the class to its core elements (stealth, trick&removal, dazing, critical dependency) and put those elements back together from start, I got some design ideas I could type out when I have the time.

    If it's only going to be a surface revamp where the framework remains intact, then I don't really have anything to offer beyond what most people have been rightfully saying: "MM, FB, KO, etc."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    All I can say is that, our classes are much more complex and hinge on player choice. Our experiments in Trees have been to support/encourage player experimentation in both specialization and generalization.
    No matter how it is implemented, a tree system will be linear and restrictive due to the very definition of a tree: it's a graph where two points are connected via only one path.

    I'm going to give you an interesting suggestion. If the free combination trait system really has to go, consider regular graphs with closed cycles in them, instead of trees. Give multiple paths between two points. Have two-ways traveling between points (i.e. A-B-C-D-E is path #1, A-X-Y-Z-E is #2. After traversing path 1, allow to go from E to Z). Heck, have multiple starting points.

    Still, ideally I'd like to keep the current system, but get a truck load of new traits of all types (not slots) to increase customization and variety.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    We are experimenting with Trees so feedback inline with that concept would be fair game.
    *shudder

    One of the things that makes burgs enjoyable is being adaptable in the situation without having to respond, "after the wipe I'll retrait". Instead we hit a few more skills and survive/perform as we are! :-)

    The implementation of mounted combat trees are very set and forget. You find what works best for you, and done. I haven't changed my mount traits since I first set them nearly half a year ago, there's no reason/benefit to change. You also are restricted in investing in things that don't support your play style to unlock the things that do.

    One precious aspect of the burglar class has always been it's ability to adapt to the circumstance. That's also fun. One of the key aspects of Flow (the psychological study of "fun") is control. Mounted combat? Not fun at all. Not just because it's boring, but because it's limited to one movement, one setup, no choice of skills, just repetitively hit the one off CD because only one is off CD, the player has no control/choice, a robot could (and should) be doing it, not a person.

    I hope characters are not afflicted with such a system inhibiting flexibility, it would certainly remove much of the fun from the game.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    So this sentiment is something that has come up each time we've mentioned the concept of Talent Trees and I think you've clearly outlined where the concerns stem from.

    The only Trees currently in LotRO are the Mounted Combat trees which are linear and restrictive. This design makes perfect sense for a system that is exclusive to a small level band and limited by encounter type. With this as the current example of Trees, it is a logical assumption that should we move classes to a Tree system that it would be very similar.

    All I can say is that, our classes are much more complex and hinge on player choice. Our experiments in Trees have been to support/encourage player experimentation in both specialization and generalization.
    Given the scant information we had as well as our limited experience with trees in LotRO (and in my case, limited experience with trees in others games) it was a definitely a logical concern.

    Accordingly, it's heartening to read that new systems are being designed to continue to allow players to make relevant choices. This naturally makes me curious as to what such a system would look like since I obviously had trouble imagining such. I did try to indicate that as long as player choice was preserved, it could possibly be fun. I still stand by that. Ultimately, I don't as much care what the path looks like or what it is called as long as I have the ability to choose my character's traits and abilities as I wish without being pigeonholed into a pre-determined profile.

    (Also, personally speaking, if it provides a means whereby MM is fixed or a reasonable analogue created, then I'm all for it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie View Post
    3 - Utility/Balanced Focus: Unfortunately, our combat/DPS focused expansions have resulted in a Burglar that has been lost in the DPS race shuffle. We were already a balanced, homogenized class that neither was best at anything but not the worst. Unfortunately, every class wanted to be able to do it all and as such, the Burglar was left to do nothing. At one time, we had unique tricks, unique utility skills, and a sense of balance. Please restore that.
    This is an exceedingly well stated summary of what I feel happened to burglars. What strengths in crowd control and debuffing we might have had left (and now shared by multiple classes) were made almost irrelevant by years of content largely based around simply killing mobs as quickly as possible. Single target burst DPS may be considered a valid burglar role to have evolved, but I'd really like to get back to the original utility (sneaky/debuffing/crowd control) role it seems the class had.
    Last edited by Delaney; Feb 25 2013 at 07:22 PM.
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  21. #46
    Wow with all these "Month of..." I feel bad for not actually thinking about the game and what I want to see, I usually just play the game and don't worry a lot about things. As for Burgs here are the three things I guess I would like to see different:

    As a lot of people have already said:
    1. MM needs a rework I can do just as much de-buffing and cc in gamble as i could in mischief. Even then I will add a yellow trait here and there but there is no point in going full yellow

    2. IMO mounted combat isn't that bad I can do a great deal of damage and love all the bleeds we can put, but the thing I think is lacking is the burg feeling in it. We pretty much just the same thing as everyone else run by and hit and then run back. If we had more debuffs or even an in-combat trick that would do it for me

    3. This one isn't so much of a what I think should be improved as in my opinion on the matter. For a melee class yeah I would say we are on the squishy side and so a mitigation upgrade would be nice but don't want too much. Our survivability comes from our ability of getting out of sticky situations not taking a hit so if we are uping our survivability an increase in evade or something like that would be great. You never see a big clunky burglar that cant move very fast

    P.S. Oh yeah just remembered well-positioned strike has way too long of an induction and is too easy to break the induction as well to be usefull. It was great with the Draig gear but now that that is out dated it isn't worth it.
    Last edited by Brewel120; Feb 25 2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  22. #47
    Others have covered the essential points. I want to add two thoughts:

    1. The burg is the only class where I derive any enjoyment from mounted combat. Damning with faint praise, for sure, but it's an important point. I was very surprised by this development, because I expected burgs would be pointless in MC... but they turn out to be the only class that is dependent on some form of actual tactics while on the horsies. It's the only dogfighting class, WWI style, where you have to get close behind your opponent to take him down efficiently. If I line up my target right, I can devastate for 10-12k; if I just hack away, it won't go so well (as was pointed out above, toe-to-toe I'd be better off dismounting).

    If MC had any tactical incentives, such as fellowship members getting bonuses when riding side-by-side, or head-on attacks becoming vastly more dangerous for both me and my target, or whatever, then the burg would have a nice role to play as the light horseman on the edge of the fight, picking out individual targets to stick from behind before debuffing/dismounting three others on the way through before turning to choose the next pass. As it stands right now, I just ride in the same circles everyone else does. Not so much something to improve for the burg, as a (IMO) crucial guide point when thinking about what isn't working in MC generally.

    2. If you ever want to give burgs an actual thieving component, the Locked Chests in Byrgenstow are halfway to allowing one without changing class skills around at all. The key is that one-shotted targets don't drag you into combat... they die before any other effects are applied. Just give the chests the same detection radius as any other mob, have them fire off an effect or summon allies when they enter combat, and then your burg can "disarm the trap" by stealthing up and one-shotting them. The only mechanical problem is preventing hunters from doing the same thing at 100 paces. I'm sure your programmers can figure that part out.

  23. #48
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    Skill & Abilities

    There are various abilities that need a revamp in my opinion. In no particular order:

    Flashing Blades - This really doe snot feel like a legendary ability. It is a standard component of our damage rotation. It should be boosted, either in terms of damage output or additional effects in order to live up to its legendary status. Also the animation is far too long.

    Sweep the Leg - Again this feels underwhelming for a legendary trait. The effects are ok I suppose, but I really think it needs to give more.

    Stick and Move - Again a lacklustre legendary trait. I like the idea of this being a stance akin to the warg's Flayer stance.

    Well-Placed Strike - A horrible skill to be blunt. It does too little damage for its long cooldown and an induction is not a good thing for a melee class to have to deal with.

    Burgle - A fun little skill I suppose, but perhaps this could be expanded upon a la GW2? Their thief class has a similar skill only it has far far more utility. Perhaps the Burgle skill could be made to function in a similar manner e.g. stealing abilities from enemies to use against them?

    Knives Out - I think there is a good argument for extending this skill to work with all damage types.

    HiPS - The cooldown on this could probably be lowered to

    A Small Snag - For its cooldown and the duration of its affects, the effects themselves feel pretty weak.

    Mischief Maker Trait Line - Currently there isn't enough reason to trait deep into this line. It isn't that the trait are bad or anything like that, but more that we can debuff fairly well without committing fully to the line.

    Survivability

    The Burglar, for a melee class, really isn't tough enough to remain in the thick of the fighting. I don't expect Burglar's to be as tough as Wardens or Champions of course, but they do need a bit more staying power.

    Legendary Weapons

    Currently it feels like a Burglar needs too many legacies, and too many major ones at that, in order to have what could be considered a 'good' legendary weapon/item. I would like to see the Burglar's legendary legacies streamlined a bit so that less is more if you catch my meaning.

  24. #49
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    Hey Kelsan,

    Hopefully this is the dawn of a new day of dev<>community interaction for the burglar class

    I don't think i can condense everything into 3 points, but I'll try to be as to-the-point as possible.

    I'll be clear from the start that i have 2 endgame burgs as my mains. One is QK traited. One is Gambler traited. Both stick to their specialisations for all content. (If Turbine would sell me an 18th character slot, I'd totally roll a MM burglar to complete the set, even if it wasn't revamped and rather unviable :P)


    Mischief Maker Traitline / Confound

    I think everyone can pretty much agree that it's the weakest of the three traitlines by far. Not only that, but more importantly it doesn't really have it's own signature compared to QK's straight-up DPS and "From Stealth" gameplay, or Gambler's Gambles.

    QK & Gambler are both quite solid both in terms of concept and mechanics, but MM really does need a rethink.

    One of the ideas I had in the RoR beta was with regards to buffing one of our least used skills - Confound. Not just to buff it to the point where it was viable to use, but also modifying how it worked to give the burglar greater control over how it worked. Personally, I feel that it could be incorporated into the design of improving the Mischief Maker traitline.

    I'll quote my post for reference. Of course, I'm not expecting you to implement this as-is, or even at all, But if it gives you food for thought for your evil machinations, then it's all good

    NB: Keep in mind this quote was written in RoR beta, and Confound did see some sublte modifications at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brya

    Confound is probably the most ignored/unused skill for Burglars. Why?
    • You need to be in mischief stance
    • It has a 15s countdown timer (granted, this can be reduced to 5s with a legacy, but since the skill is poorly regarded, nobody gets this legacy)
    • It's on a 5m cooldown - Yes, this one point that at least is now being adressed in RoR
    • It's "Unreliable" CC in the sense that besides the one target you intend to hit, you have no idea where the other 1 (or 3 if traited) debuffs are going to land. This is particularly a problem in a raid environment where you can accidentally give an immunity to an adaptation mob unintenionally, probably causing a wipe as a result.


    Your mission statement when creating improved skills is to make ignored/useless skills more useful, and getting them back into rotation. You are not achieving this objective with Improved (or even vanilla) Confound.

    There are a number of ways Confound (both in its default and improved versions) can be improved upon:
    • Remove the Mischief stance requirement - I Appreciate that you may want to keep this skill tied to Mischief and be reluctant in that step. In this case, why not follow the same example as Riddle? Give it a significantly reduced cooldown while in Mischief stance.
    • Reduce the cooldown on the skill - Confound is comparable in terms of utility to a Lore-master's Herb-lore, a skill which is on a two minute cd. Give confound a more appropriate cooldown (2-3m) which the possibility as mentioned before of lowering that further while in mischief stance.
    • Remove the countdown timer - The whole point of CC is that you control the mob *NOW*. Not spending 15s telling your raid "It's ok, i've got it covered, just don't hit it for like...ever" while a loose mob quickly kills your healers.
    • Improve the "Reliability" of the skill - As noted earlier, by this I mean knowing which targets are going to be affected by the mez. Why not have this work like Advanced Startling Twist, ie It can only be used on an enemy with a trick on them, and can potentially effect up to X other enemies in the radius that have a trick on them. And ofc any enemy without a trick remains unaffected.


    I have to admit, having only just thought of that last point I REALLY like it. This skill synergy fits in very well in the Burglar style of gameplay and Tricks/Trick Removals. This will mean that a burglar will have to work a little to prep their targets, but that the skill can have a much more viable use in group play. And beacause of the greater effort to prepare the setup of using the skill, they get rewarded with an appropriately more powerful cc effect than "just click the button" Riddle.

    Working to prep your targets by getting tricks on them ready for the stun is effectively fulfilling the same role as the countdown timer, but is more proactive in its approach. Want a quick stun? Trick>Confound and one target is CC'ed. Want something special? (While traited) spend a few seconds tricking four targets, then Confound, and you get a much more powerful CC effect refleacting the greater effort you spend in preparation. Which also ofc comes at the cost of a longer preparation time before the CC effect is activated.

    While a viable and significantly improved confound might be considered a massive increase to our CC abilities, I feel that running around trick-ing things, then slapping a confound on targets like this certainly lives up to the traitline name of "Mischief Maker". Even with this, we're still well behind the Lore-master in terms of total CC output, so i wouldn't consider it unbalanced. we're both meant to be primary CC classes, which further differ in our other contributions to play (Burg CJs, LM power shares and healing etc). Lore-master is getting a massive buff to healing ability, so I don't see why you couldn't give us one little improved skill. Pretty please.
    The Alleged "Survivability" Issues

    Sorry brothers and sisters but I have to disagree with you here. If you're gonna go all out on Agility and build like a glass cannon, don't complain when you get cracked. This is why Hunters have such a QQ reputation when it comes to them moaning about survivability.

    We're Melee. We're in the thick of it. We therefore need to build appropraitely for it. Mitigations, Vitality, the works. And if you do, the Burglar really isn't as squishy as you believe. Factor in avoidable scenarios which come with an awareness of boss mechanics and tactics (eg, the AoE from 1st boss in Roots of Fangorn), and all our "Oh ****!" buttons....Yeah. We really don't have it bad at all.

    I'll be honest, i don't really PvP at all on any class anymore, and i suspect survivability to be more of an issue for the moors, rahter than solo or group based PvE.

    That said, there's still room for potential quality of life improvements on the issue (eg Knives out improved to affect all incoming damage sources)

    Quality of Life Improvement Ideas
    • Flashing Blades - The Animation and "recovery time" at the end of the skill is crazy. Make it execute faster, preferably with a new animation to just go with a 2-strike "shing shing" animation (Champ imagery not intended) and its done. None of this flailing around of daggers for 5 seconds, forcing us to use Addle to cut short the animation. Please.
    • Knives Out - An Improved version to work for Tactical/Ranged attacks. Especially since this is usally where the big hits come from in raids.
    • Clever Retort - As others have noted, it would be nice if the numbers on the damage/restoration components were buffed a little, and/or the cooldown of the skill was reduced.
    • Fellowship Manuevers - I know it's someone on the devs agenda to look at towards the end of the year, but These are one of the signature things for the burglar class. With the numbers on the damage/restorations these things doing being significantly less than if you just DPS'ed or healed through the same period of time, these are (with the exception of Draigoch) being relegated to being just another "Oh ****!" skill to stop a dangerous mob in its tracks for a few seconds, or as another tool in the box for dealing with Adaptaion Mobs. Not to mention the number of bosses that are completely immune to them these days. Which as a side-effect makes "Escape clause" useless in many boss fights...
    • Well-Placed Strike - It's better to just DPS rather than wait for this induction to go off. And even then, it had to be done "in position" to be even remotely worth the effort. The Draigoch set bonus reducing the induction time for this made it much more viable. Buff the damage considerably (make it worthy of its long cd) and reduce or remove the induction.
    • Exposed Throat - Is already in a fairly decent state. Maybe a new legacy to give us extra choice on ous LI's, buffing the proc chance by 10% or so? (More is welcome, but probably OP)
    • Confound - See Above
    • Quite a Snag - is pretty aweful compared to the other two traitlines signature skills (Improved Feint Attack and Gambler's Strike). Needs some TLC.
    • Ready & Able - With so many skills (for all classes) seeing significantly reduced cooldowns, can we get the same for this? Maybe down to 15m default, -5m with legacies or something? Not fun waiting for cooldowns.
    • Stick & Move - Rather underwhelming for a legendary trait. Stick and Move wasn't too bad in the old days, But with so much stats these days (crit in particular), we don't need this skill to also open up our crit chain on an evade. The passive stat bonus is weak, and a Legendary skill ought to be more legendary than just applying some passive stats. We like to call those "Virtues" instead.
    • Trip / Sweep the Leg - Again, rather underwhelming for a legendary trait. -40s off Trip cd is effectively a legacy. And not breaking stealth? We're pretty much only in stealth solo anyway. Trip is only used one of three ways: 1) As a QK burglar, after Improved Feint Attack (who is thus the only Burglar who can always reliably invoke the skill at will). 2) After using HiPS in-combat to force us into stealth (Sorry: But we're holding that ace card up our sleeves for more important things). 3) Entering stealth out-of-combat, and tripping something as the opening move. While removing the stealth requirement would indeed make it a duplicate of exploit opening, the base mechanics of the skill could be improved to make it more accessible to Gamble/MM Burgs, and the legendary trait either needs a major overhaul, or replaced with something else entirely.
    • A Proper Ranged Pull Skill - Instead of (or in addition to) having thrown consumables, give us a "proper" ranged skill for the purpose of pulling. Riddle doesn't agro the mobs friends anymore, Enrage just about works for solo but isn't really made for this purpose. Captains have their shouts, Guardians and champions have the "Let Fly" bow skill. Give us a 30m ranged skill to throw a dagger to bother some mobs. Make sure it does a reasonable amount of damage too. If you REALLY wanted to overboard with this, instead of making it live the regular throwing hatchet, make it like the serrated knives, and a ranged corruption removal.
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  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    One wish - Transparent DPS mechanics

    Burgs are generally a good DPS class. And there are plenty of suggestions here about how that might be improved. But my biggest gripe with Burg DPS is that you really have to game the system to do it right. For other classes, you might take advantage of behind the scene mechanics to eek out the last 10% of DPS and that's probably fine. But for burglars, it seems like there a complete step change between the burgs who know how to game the system and those who don't. And I think this is a problem.

    When you read the burg forums about maximizing DPS, it's full of advice like this:
    1) If you Aim right before using Flashing Blades, and then quickly click Surprise Strike, you can get a crit for both.
    2) Never use Flashing Blades, except as outlined above, or if you have Addle up to cut off the animation.
    3) Never use two "melee" skills in a row. The delay between them is too long. Always follow a "melee" skill with a "fast" skill and you can squeeze in more skills per unit time.

    In my mind, none of these dynamics are transparent. They all involve taking advantage of behind the scenes game mechanics. And in my book, the problem with the burg is that the proper gaming of these dynamics is much more important for good DPS than for any class.

    My dream is that a reasonable player should be able to read tool tips, select good legacies, and work out a reasonable skill rotation based on information that is out in the open. It shouldn't require living on the forums, cutting off animations that are too long to begin with, or figuring out how to game some hidden delay between skills that isn't described anywhere. I know that the super hard-core will always be out there optimizing game mechanics for the last 10% of the DPS, and that's fine. I just don't like it when it amounts to the last 40-50% of the DPS and not the last 10%.

    So, is there a system that would keep the DPS the same, but make the dynamics for achieving that DPS a little more open and transparent?

 

 
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