Even my Signature is trolling!
Hello and Welcome
2 things for me.
First, make Yellow line more usefull.
Second, since Im a bit of a conjuction junkie I would like to see some new things with it.
Have no problem with the current values on damage/power/morale from them.
The one thing I would like to change is that if you put in a CJ, for ex 3 yellow.
Then you stand there waiting for a couple of seconds for the duration of the stun to
be over and then it activates and hits the target.
If you have put in 3 yellow at the conjuntion panel so you can see it as a preview during
the CJ duration on the mob, it should execute as soon as it matches. Even if you still have 3 seconds
left on the stun duration. That would speed up the conjuntions and you wont loose to much dps joining in one.
If skill trees are what it takes to give some juice back to Burgs, I say go for it.
I find that I'm exactly in one of two builds probably 95% of the time, so there's really not much to lose as long as it's not too simplistic or any less applicable (which is pretty hard to imagine).
If you go trees, you need to totally do away with the concept of underwhelming skills... I've played a Burg for about 6 years and still have 2 skill deeds uncompleted (care to guess which?) Conversely, I've completed all my skill deeds on other classes a few weeks into playing them - often purposely because I wanted access to the traits.
Mounted skill trees seem too simplistic, but then that's largely a factor of the simplistic nature of mounted combat and the associated content.
Personally, I want tough choices - but I don't want that tough choice to be which stinker to throw in there to round-out a trait-line bonus...
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My main concern:
There must be no damaging skills with ZERO cooldown. Please remove it as it's a reason of exploits.
2- Lower single target DPS, and update survivability.
3- Open tapping is out... And my target will be dead before I can be in tapping range.
Wine Wine Wine. Dry Dry Dry. What will it be today ?...
Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.
~John J. Rambo
My personal suggestions, thanks for reading:
- Reduce animations for tricks
You should not be putting yourself or raid at risk if you want to use Glee for self-heal. At present you can be hit much harder then you can heal yourself while you are removing a trick with Glee and then re-appling it. Ideally, Glee should NOT remove an active trick, it should renew it! If you can not implement either idea, then at least increase base heal from Glee considerably.
- Reduce animation for Find footing and/or increase its heal part at least twice
Due to rather long animation and a very poor heal part the skill does not make sense in PVMP anymore.
- Re-work stealth levels
People macro-switch stealth gear which is a simple inconviniencen at the moment, nothing more! A Burglar should get a good base stealth level like a warg without equipping a number of stealth items. In general, players should not be forced/encouraged to use macro-switching to get full benefits from the class.
- Give an increased miss chance (+30-50%) after Find footing and/or T&G for 10-30 seconds
This will somehow address all recent and not very recent nerfs to Burglar ability to evade attacks in PVMP.
- A Small Snag should slow the target(s) for 10-30 seconds without ability to remove this effect. It should stack with Dust in Mischief stance/as traitline bonus at least.
Good to see someone working on this.
As you can probably already see there's more than a few things that could use a change/boost/revamp. It looks like most has been touched on already and some good ideas to go along with fixes. The main problem with the class is the game has been changing yet burglars have not.
The only thing I have not seen anyone mention is the painfully obvious animation on knives out (this applies to pvp only). As I type the two wargs who just jumped me patiently back away for 10 seconds... in opposite directions... another next to useless skill
My 3ps worth:
In the 'old' days CJs were a big deal and burgs were very much valued in groups - one of the best aspects of playing my burg was pulling off a CJ at a critical moment.
Nowadays the effects are mediocre to the point that most players find them an irritant rather than a benefit and ignore them completely unless the group leader has specifically told everyone to use it (which is now quite rare). In addition the trend for bosses to be stun and CJ immune further reduces one of the burgs signature moves.
I'm not sure what the solution is: scaling of all effects? add new CJs that (for example) provide class-wide buffs or poison resistance? reduce the number of immune bosses?
2. Gated skills
We have two skills that can only be used in one stance: Confound and Clever Retort (although the latter can be used in any stance but requires a trait to do so).
It would add extra dimension to the class if these skills were available at all times but were buffed by the appropriate stance/traits.
In particular Confound is a skill that is very situational: it's fun but hard to use effectively solo, it's just about useless in groups, it needs a trait to be really effective, and it can be resisted.
We are a medium armour class that has to be in the thick of the fight, but are now so squishy that we are frequently one-shotted in skirms and raids, usually by AOE mobs. In particular Knives Out only works against common damage (and what mobs deal common damage at higher levels!).
Maybe buff that skill to work against other damage types? Improve our mitigations against AOE skills in particular?
Last edited by StrideColossus; Feb 26 2013 at 06:32 AM.
Oh, oh, oh - some more thoughts:
Burg Mounted Combat is just silly. One trick and that's it... easier to stay OFF the horse, frankly.
Confound? I've STILL not done the deed for that.
Gambler debuffs are great but the stuns etc. need more reliability and/or the durations need to last longer. If some of the disabling/debuff gambles had a higher chance to proc, we'd see more gamblers in raids and less herp derp QK burg spamming. I used to run gambler even in ToO T2 but stopped when my disabling gamble on Frost Saruman missed - of course I had appropriate traits and LIs. Simply, you can't gamble away people's lives...
A meaningful ranged skill (single target) beyond Small Snag, to do with throwing daggers. Good DPS from stealth, poor otherwise, longish cooldown (say 15 secs) to prevent spam.
Last edited by Aedfrith; Feb 26 2013 at 06:35 AM.
Spider pets can keep attacking a burglar after he just HIPSED, its happening all the time to me lately, FIX IT
Lots of good stuff here already.
Combat animations +1, please reaverise them!
Survivability, predominately moors related, especially versus tactical attacks, slows and dots. u10 may actually address this somewhat already.. not sure. Take a look at incoming healing too please. Neutral is not 0 for hobbit burgs atleast. Tooltip values on glee are not met until about 10% inc healing iirc as an example. Moors relic, we have to give up some solid relics to slot these.
Traits and legendaries.
To add a wall of text to these..
I like where our dps and utility is atm. This is partly why MM line is so bad( ok Rosenthal I did try it in the moors and kinda fun I agree). Our DPS is in a good spot because we are a single target positional based class. I think people need to remember that when they call for DPS nerfs, we can't AoE. MM is bad because you give up that DPS advantage to take a couple of extra traits that you can't use at the same time as the first two you were going to take.
There is talk of culling skills.
WPS can go.
Safefall should be a passive. The sprint style addition wouldbe nice thou.
LiE could become a passive when traited, like champ flurry and fervour, and then removed when not traited or left.
Enrage is currently only good for the moors and mucking around, and putting someone in combat from range.
Burglar's antidote needs the root/induction fixed, could be like creep charge.
Sneeze could go, its fluff.
Burgle.. wouldn't bother me personally if it goes, although I am sure it would others, and it is kind of a fun skill to use while exploring in the 50s around angmar.
Summon Tinker can go, its useless since the instance finder.
Escape clause, can go or get reworked, related traits too.
Small snag can go imo. It is no good for group content.
Sweep the leg trait can go. Will lead to less greybarred creeps, has no real purpose in PvE.
Have a think about base speed of the burglar too please. Try chasing some creeps round the moors from stealth. Make coffee last its duration even upon defeat. What is the point of being a stealth class in the moors if you have to mount up and ride round half the map to catch someone, when you see them.
Have a think about the creep trackers too. Fair enough wargs can track. Do orcs and uruks need to beable to track too? If orcs and uruks do need to beable to track.. can freeps get some trackers for silver too..
There is alot of complaints about creeps being greybarred etc with the ongoing brand topic. I would happily give up some CC If I didn't need it to stop creeps kiting me(shoot me I have a 300 ping). Although Then I would be kind of short on interrupts too.. That ranged auto attack thing someone mentioned might be nice actually in that sense.
Can you please share some in depth thoughts about how you see the trait tree ideas shaping up? When Moria came about I loathed the loss of rainbow traiting. Few years down the track and I kind of like where we are, but would love to hear your ideas on what is viable, possible, etc..
I am not opposed to trait trees.. but if it ends up like mounted combat and stance dancing.. I would have to vote no. MC doesn'thave enough flexibility and depth.
Welcome to the forums of the most fun class inthe game.
Last edited by Pasoth; Feb 26 2013 at 08:40 AM.
(1) Survivability - My main is a RK, and when healing, it becomes quickly apparent that Burgs have the lowest surviability of all classes as they are melee, requiring to be right next to a boss, but do not have the armor, mitigations or morale-pool of other melee classes. While they are able to evade melee attacks, they have a huge issue dealing with tactical damage (which is everywhere in raids as auras, hotspots, distributed...). I would like to see some consideration for a passive or legendary ("One with the shadows?") that enhances tactical mitigation.
(2) Ranged Slot - Burglars suffer by not having a ranged attack and ranged auto-attack. In many ways this is more obvious at lower levels when tagging mobs, but is now more obvious again with open-tapping. I would like to see Burgs given permemant ranged-weapons (choice of hatchets, serrated knives e.t.c.) NOT consumables. Swap the "remove corruption" from the consumable knives to a new Burglar skill instead.
(3) Traits (including Legendary traits) - While I love the Burglar for having so many sneaky tricks, their traits feel comparitively underwhelming. I look to my RK or LM and I have a hard time choosing between useful traits that enhance existing skills and really make a trait-line shine. With the burg, the traitline bonuses are generally beneficial, but the traits themselves often feel like picking the best out of a bad-bunch... for example with Quick Knife traits the bonus to cunning wound bleeds is great, but then we have several traits that affect "from stealth" attacks, which really provide minimal bonus, then have nothing impacting our "crit-chain skills". I would love to see a big overhaul of these traits, merging some bonuses and creating brand new ones in their place. In particular I would like to see some of the legendary trait skills become part of the standard Burglar skill-set, and new legendary traits given that opens up skillplay by affecting existing skills (not adding three new skills!).
Confoundis my least favourite skill in the whole game, a pause before stunning seems counter-intuitive - suggest removing skill entirely.
Clever Retort should always be available (not linked to MM or unlocked via trait only) as the skill isn't that powerful (be nice to see damage on this vastly improved).
Would like to see slight AOE improvements for Burg, perhaps by making the crit-chain skills all be AOE based (3 targets).
Location is Everything has far far too long a cooldown, and/or should be made a trait.
Well Placed Strike is a good idea (diff. DPS from diff. location) but should have no induction or the induction should be minimal.
Final comments (relevant to all classes):
Animations linked to skills really hinder gameplay -- think this is something that needs looking at across the board. So for example, on LM use Water-lore and you have an indction, AND THEN more animation before the skill goes off. I would like to see skill timings normalised across the board: so non-induction skills take a set time to work (i.e. 2 second including all animation); while induction skills show their animations during induction, and then have minimal (i.e. 0.5 second after-cast animation only). Having to use skills that cut off the end of long animations (e,g, Addle) to improve DPS is not how the game should be played!!
I am frightened by this talk of skill-trees. While I can udnerstand that devs wish to move away from hybrid trait-lines, sometime traits from one traitline can really benefit a player on a particular boss. By locking traits up a skill tree we lose this flexibility. An example being "heightended senses" on Hunter allows detection of stealthed-creatures, this is part of trapper of Foes line, but a DPS hunter can still trait this skill in BG to track stealthed wargs. I imagine a hybrid-avoiding skill tree would actively avoid allowing classes to do this kind of mixing of roles.
1) Make Gamblers Strike prolong the Gamble even if it is already on Tier 6.
2) Make Gambler strike put gamble on target depending what trick the target has applied - Counter Defense - damaging gamble, Disable - Debuffing Gamble. Disabling gamble on Gamble Strike would be op, but keeping target permanently under debuffing gamble seems pretty ok for me.
3) Allow MM burg to stack two tricks per target (with yellow capstone)
In more theoretical words:
1) Gambler needs more potential when CC isnt availible. Debuffing resistance is outdated, hardly makes any difference now and needs to be replaced with something else, what about Crit Defense debuff?
2) MM burg needs more potential - some boost when dealing with bosses especially.
3) CJs needs to have impact again, either make them stronger or make the cj build up more dynamic and allow players do other things while contributing to CJ - stop the stuck animation and leave only the Color Icon above the head + animation on the finishing of the CJ.
EDIT: oh yes and fix Flashing Blades please!
1. Make Yellow line sets *trait sets* improve % strength of debuff applied i dont need a 45 second Counter defence up for 15 seconds longer ill just throw a 2nd Counter defence up @ 45 seconds or when i run out of skills in a dps rotation.... I would love for raids to be ran in yellow line for burgs not 100% redline.
2. Give Burglars bleeds that are worth applying, we have some of the weakest bleed in the game and we wield DAGGERS.?.?.?.?.? Poisons added to daggers this could close the gap in our lackluster dot role.
3. Make it harder to be a top tier burglar give us more options in general. At the moment it is just too easy to be a GOOD burglar with one skill REVEAL WEAKNESS we do 10% of a bosses health with one click of a button. *please dont nerf it lol burglars havn't got a logical upgrade to the class, since Moria class trait tree.... cept the unseen set lol.
Nudge your developer buddies and tell them to study everquest the once monopoly of mmo's and still alive today. It was all about ACTUAL CONTENT w/o the FLUFF, and character development with multiple items not just 1 top lv armor set which 95% of the server has. They also added AA point system where people could still play the class they chose but be unique in their abilities.
There are many issues that could use work, but here are my top three:
- This has to do with mitigations primarily, and is a particularly poignant issue in areas where you can't avoid the damage. This includes PvE fights with frequent AOE and PvMP, both of which require you to be in the thick of it to contribute and yet entail numerous skills that don't check against avoidance, and/or high finesse ratings that greatly negate any benefit you had from avoidances.
- General comment: It doesn't make much sense that Burglar's should have less mitigation than Light armour wearers, given that they are necessarily in harm's way and have "Medium" armour.
2) Several skills that could be tweaked, mostly in "quality of life" ways.
- Flashing Blades--a legendary skill which requires a legendary trait should not also require Addle to be effective. My suggestion is to decrease the animation time, remove the long post-animation delay, and bump the damage slightly so this is legendary without requiring Addle.
- Confound and Clever Retort still require Mischief to use. Why not give these skills a modified use outside of Mischief stance? Something like a powerful, short-duration debuff to both movement speed (40-50% for 10s) and attack duration (+20% for 10s) for Confound.
- Well-Placed Strike isn't worth using at all right now due to the excessive animation. We were on to something with the Draigoch set bonus, which had people using the skill. It's been off my toolbars since that set went out of style. Please bring back the shorter induction or remove it entirely and make it so that you only have to self-root for an animation and nothing more.
- Safe Fall could be removed and the ability made into a passive.
- Strategem (Mounted Combat) could greatly benefit from having an in-combat use. Many of our other skills lose their special functionality because this one Trick is gone after your opening attack.
3) Legendary Items and legacies.
- Burglars have inordinately expensive legacies for LIs compared to other classes. Consider that many classes have only one or two legacies which require 144 points to max out; while Burglars have many such legacies. There are also very few cheap legacies to off-set the expensive ones. Several legacies could use their max cost reduced to be brought in line with other classes (Trick Range, Subtle Stab Crit Multi, Crit Response Skill Dmg, Surprise Strike from Stealth Dmg, Burglar Skill Bleed Dmg Multi, Riddle Range, Surprise Strike Crit Rating).
- Please consider combining the legacies for Feint Attack, Lucky Strike, and Snag.
- If we can't revamp Well-Placed Strike to be worth using, we might as well remove the legacy and add something else instead.
Okay, first of all, I'm only speaking about PvE, I don't care about the Moors AT ALL.
#1: Survivability (big surprise!)
IMHO, we don't need higher chances to avoid something, we need to be SURE we survive certain attacks that will happen even if we do everything right. Doesn't help to have 99% avoidance when murphy's law says the remaining 1% will still ruin some attempt again and everyone sighs and thinks "of course the Burglar again...". Unless I missed something, U10 won't really help, will only leave us with the worst tactical mitigations, and the fact that we have the lower rating=>percentage conversion of light armour classes but need to stand right next to heavy armour classes doesn't exactly help either.
How about giving one stance a substantial amount of crit defense at least? The last few one-shots were all by taking a critical or even devestating hit well above my morale pool.
However, since we're not able to change stance in combat, there would still be problems...
#2: Lack of utility
I don't really know if the class or the content is the bigger problem, but what we really are these days are squishy melee single-target DDs, about the last thing people invite, especially for 3-mans (not that I'd be a big fan or 3-mans, but we get them forced down our throats nonetheless). Also plenty of trash mobs are CC immune, especially in raids. That's basically okay, but a Lore-master is still substantially more usefull, not only because of his burst-AoE, he can restore some power and morale (don't tell me we have FMs, even 3-man bosses like in "Seat of the Great Goblin" are IMMUNE to coordinated attacks these days...yay), and has extremely neat things like stun immunity...I want to feel just half as useful.
#3: "Normal" solo gameplay became rather boring too, ever since Improved Sneak made Suprise Strike auto-crit, I don't see the point traiting gambler solo either, QK just is most effective, yet most booooring. All regular mobs die with the same buttons presses (e.g. Sneak, Reveal Weakness, Surprise Strike, Disable, Burglar's Advantage, Subtle-Stab, Double-Edged Strike, Flashing Blades), because we are guaranteed to have Burglar's Advantage ready too. Okay sometimes I need a second Subtle Stab or something, or riddle a second mob beforehand...yay.
And that QK and Gambler legacies won't really fit on the same LIs well either doesn't increase the chance of me ever going gambler again either, no matter how fun the gamble-effects were. The suggestion earlier to "fuse" some core legacies sounds great, but I already hear other classes demanding the same.
Oh I didn't mention MM yet...well I don't remember when I last inspected a (PvE) Burglar that had more than two yellow traits, so...mentioning: checked.
Oh one small additional note, as already mentioned, animation delay post-damage (Flashing Blades being the most extreme) is just annoying, it makes your character look distracted by something...like "Did I really lock the door when I left?"
Until you figured out some fixed, I'm playing my Captain before she gets screwed too much too...
I'm sorry if I sounded a bit frustrated, but I am.
MAKE SUBTLE STAB IMMEDIATE!!! Dream it for a moment, dreamers.
If I can't have that, I guess I'll take survivability that doesn't make us godmode in PvP (phys mit, tact source defence, aoe defence, protection against attacks greater than 50% of our max morale, etc). Whatever happens, please don't diminish our role as single target dps monsters or dumb down the most enjoyable skillset in-game.
Last edited by harman097; Feb 26 2013 at 12:12 PM.
Hi Kelsan. Thanks for making this thread.
1.) Survivability - Since we are melee only we need to be in the thick of things to do our job. Unfortunately our medium armor doesn't actually give us noticeably better mitigation than light armor. (In fact, our tactical mitigation will be more than 10% below light armor classes after U10.) In the old days our passives helped make up for this with better parry/evade chances. However in todays world our total avoidances are the same as every other might/agility class (6 points of avoidance for each point of primary stat). Even worse, there are many tactical attacks/special attacks that just flat out ignore avoidances. I don't trait glass cannon (I have over 10k morale) but I can still be one shotted by a random AOE or when a boss selects a random member of the raid to take a swipe at.
2. ) Utility - Our CC is in a good place but our debuffs could use a buff . We are listed as a debuffing class but a single burgs debuffs are very unimpressive. Even if we trait for debuffs our debuffs are MUCH weaker than LMs. Our debuffs are melee, single target, dont stack, and just dont reduce a mobs stats as much as LM debuffs. Sure a group of 5-10 burgs can debuff content to the point that it is trivial, but one burg barely has a noticeable effect. Please boost burg debuffs. If you need to take away the ability for multiple burgs to stack/break content then please do it already.
3.) Useless traits/legacies - Several of our traits/legacies need a serious review.
Stick and Move - Hardly legendary. Maybe this could be improved to help with our survivability?
Flashing Blades - We have to use addle to to interrupt the long animation to make it worth using
Sweep the Leg - Could just be replaced with something new
Complicated Terms - Is not needed since we have finesse
Confound the fools - A trait to improve a skill we don't use... (Finesse debuff is an okay idea but we cant see that it actually makes a difference in a fight)
Spatial sense - This should completely remove the induction from well placed strike
Overwhelming odds - Now that fellowship moves have been hung out to dry, a skill that gives a short/weak buff after a fellowship move just needs to be replaced with something else.
Even the odds - See overwhelming odds
Legacy - provoke treat increase - This was never scaled. It is now all but useless
Legacy - misc glee pulses - Extra pulses are useless now that we can use subtle stab to get the cd on glee down to about 20s-25s. The extra pulses just get overwritten by the new pulses from our next use of misc glee.
Legacy - lucky strike cd/small snag cd/feint attack cd - Please combine these so we don't need a a different weapon for each trait line. Maybe after you combine these 3 you would have room to toss in something like +knives out duration and +knives out reflect percent
Burglar tricks (marbles, caltrips dust) - Please look at reducing the cd on these items.
Conjunctions - I am listing this separately becuase this isnt just a burg issue. Please scale these so that it is worthwhile for groups to stop DPSing and try to work together to complete a conj. This was a really neat aspect of LOTRO. The group could all work together to try to do sometghing really neat/powerful. As it stands now it is a waste of time/effort to stop what you are doing to join a conj for anything except an emegency GGGG or BBBBB
Last edited by Mystarr; Feb 26 2013 at 01:00 PM.
Merridan - Burglar lvl 100 (Rank 12)
Gormadan - Minstrel lvl 100 (Rank 4) : Traldan - Captain lvl 100 : Celebdan - Weaver (Rank 11)
Legendaries - I using around 6 legendarie tools/weapons, one dagger for every trait line, swap for riddle range, for r&a cd, for hips cd, for stealth speed, for mg healing... It,s quite stupid I need so many of them.
DPS skills - like somebody mantioned before, I need to know so many tricks to use my dps. This is complicated and hard to learn. Cuting animations, fast after melee etc. It shouldnt be like that.
Class role - propably most importent and should be as first. We used to be jack-of-all-trades, we was exellent addition to each fellow that was adding what fellow miss. Now we are just dps. Our main role used to be debuffs, now it means nothing in compare to lm debuff skills. In raids/fellow we are just dps machines. I would like to see main role in game. (Propably its a little content foult)
what I don't get is traits doesn't need changes, why new ideas to fix the old that needs to be fix and stop the new ideas to change things that are not bug, broken and just want to be left alone.
I've recently switched my main to burglar so I don't have much to say just yet. But there is one thing I would like improved, like so many other people here:
1. Survivability. It's quite embarrassing for a burglar to be one-shotted, in for example Durchest T1. I don't have the agro, I am in the correct position, yet sometimes he turns around and does a random attack on a raid member who doesn't have boss agro. If selected for this attack, it always wipes the poor burglar.
Hey. I play my burg in pvp and pve and am quite happy about this class overall. But some little changes would be nice:
1. Power Regeneration: I think no class has do deal with such big power problems like the burg. The only way to restore power is to use glee or clever retort and hope that they actually provide you with a little power restoration. Thats just not enough. Raise the chance for glee to restore power from 20% to 50% and increase the amount of power restoration.
2. Legendary Traits: "Stick and Move" and "Sweep the Leg" are pretty useless atm. Replace them with completely new legendary traits which could raise the survivability or provide an additional damage boost (i think of something like the legendary traits of the champion -> "Fight On", "Controlled Burn", "Blood Rage").
3. Addle: The cd of addle was increased from 5 to 10 seconds because of pvp-reasons. I can live with 10 sec cd on addle in the moors but in pve this annoys me. Burglars used to be responsible for interruptions in raids. For this purpose 10 seconds are just too long. Isnt there a way to increase the cooldown of addle just in the pvp-area and let it be 5 seconds outside of it?
My 3 points as all round burglar player (solo/fellow/raids and Ettens)
1) SURVIVABILITY!!!! without doubt number 1 thing that has to change!!!! We used to be a squishy class with not allot of armor, but we had skills we didn't get hit allot. If we got hit we had more dam, but because we got hit less then other classes we could survive. But since the introduction of Finesse, Creeps having mostly tactical skills and NPC's that kill you, Touch and go isn´t the usefull skill as it was.
2) SPRINT ability. Since Hips is hardly worth anything (adds still follow you in ettens (also lame of LM pets), and ppl track you just a few secs later HIPS hardly saves me). But why we need sprint even more is, that since like every creep has a brand nowadays and is hardly CCable (due Dimishing returns (BTW even addle dimishing returns :S), i often can't get a kill cause they slow and/or just run away (even without brand).
3) MM trait-line needs a revamp with more CC ability's with reasonable CD --> Fear ability, Silence ability, Root, etc
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