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  1. #201

    Healing for hunter

    This something I have made many jokes about in game. But this would make hunter far more usefull for raid. I would love to see a healing stance for hunter. I see hunter as expert in survival in the wild and should have more then just a poison healing benefit for groupe play.
    Also a range corruption removal, and interuption skill would be very usefull.

  2. #202
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    a few key things i would like to see changed and these are things that start to get anoying after a tiny while

    * focus bow and induction bow legacys being combined into 1 and being buffed to 50% ( to match champs )

    * heartseaker being scaled to 85 ( i no alot dont use this skill but for solo work you can one shot any mob in open world ( apart from odd warbands ) as long as it crits/devs but heres the thing back in isen and i wasnt well geared back then i was seeing hs devs for 25k, now today almost fully geard to how i wanna be ( minus t2 armour and some golden braclets of horse lords ) i can see devs of 15-19k .

    * press onwards scaled and made instant cast no induction its the only real self heal we have other than the tiny parry responce or the new ring.

    * merciful shot remove the need for mobs to be below half hp it costs us 6 focus already and its our only ranged corruptions removal skill eather give us another corruptions removal skill or remove the need for mobs to be below half hp

    * combine fleetness and Precision stance so we can gain focus on the move and shoot on the move as a permant buff

    and one final one that im sure will eather get hate from other classes or love

    * make it so all classes that have a meter like the hunters focus gain use the same amount currently champs need 5 fevlor to hit max compared to hunters 9 along with healing classes needing to tune there healing up ( unsure how high as im yet to play a healer) making them all have to reach the same number and altering skills across the classes would ebalance alot of things without much effort
    Last edited by bcdaedalus; Mar 25 2013 at 10:47 AM.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcdaedalus View Post
    * combine fleetness and Precision stance so we can gain focus on the move and shoot on the move as a permant buff
    That would be 1. OP, and 2. making the "one stance to rule them all" situation worse.

  4. #204
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    Well heres some things from meh

    1. Improved barbed arrow duration (10 seconds is a joke.)
    2. Lowcut less RESIST chance (pathetic thinking of not even using it again)
    3. Instant pressonward (nerf it a bit on morale and its cake A BIT NOT 500 morale heal)
    4. Camouflage first 5 seconds dmg or a sure Devastate/Critical
    5. Cry of the hunter should give a 10 second immunity to everything.
    6. Bow legacies critical multiplier as 1.
    7. Bleeding traps should count more

    Maybe make df in pvp usable in combat could use 1 escape skill since most classes have at least 1 and i as a hunter has 0.
    Maybe on move inductions with fleetness (dunno though might be op) Never had a real problem with mouse turning but i look silly turning o fast sometimes x]


    A MUST ~

    Huntert art shouldnt be changed accoring to stance there should be 1 for dmg 1 for finesse and 1 for incombat powerregen
    Heartseeker is poor and deserves a boost.

  5. #205
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    I have to agree with my fellow hunters that the meele skills need some improvement, but we do not need more meele skills i think.
    I thought a little bit more on Heartseeker, Merciful Shot and Bloodarrow.

    Maybe the corruption removal should be moved from Mercifulshot to Bloodarrow. Removing the gate for corruption removal. This would be an interesting change. Mercifulshot should be simply stronger.

    And Heartseeker is a really precise shot. Raise base damage to level 85 and make it consume all gathered focus.
    For each focuspoint the Heartseeker gets something like +5% damage,+1% critical/dev chance, +5% critical magnitude.
    Might be a little strong with 5% but everything needs to be tested and balanced. I think the idea of HS using all focus for damage is nice.

    Then with the trait changes I suggested before it would be a really good skill again, something worthy to be the level 50 skill.

    Edit: It would be nice to see the focus used while the HS induction is running. So if someone interrupts you some of the focus is lost.
    Last edited by Taldeen; Mar 26 2013 at 01:12 PM.

  6. #206
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    For 3+ years I've only played the hunter class. I absolutely love the hunter class and I think there are a lot of things that it does well. I think that in comparison to other classes, the one things that hunters lack is "survivability" in tough situations.

    After reading many of the posts in this thread and thinking about things for a while I'd recommend that hunters need way more "survivability."

    Here's my top three suggestions:

    1) A ranged version of Agile Rejoiner that activates when a hunter evades an attack. Take the current legacy that can double the heal magnitude from Agile Rejoiner and have it apply to this new skill as well. The healing ticks from this new ranged heal-on-evade skill as well as Agile Rejoiner could stack.

    2) A "WTSHTF" skill that dramatically increases evade and parry at the expense of lowering dps for a short time.

    3) Scrap the current version of Desperate Flight, make it double our run speed for 15 seconds and be immune to all slows and CC. Also make it impossible to attack for these 15 seconds. Make it available in both PvE and PvMP.

    Lots of other good ideas in this thread and frankly lots of ideas that are far better than mine. By the way, I am loving Cry of the Hunter and have found it to really help my "survivability" with that bubble. Even though the bubble isn't very much, its short cooldown is helpful.

    Finally, this is my "pie-in-the-sky" request, but I'd love a major legacy on ranged weapons that let's us increase our range for 1-3 meters. I know, I know, will never be implemented, but it's so epic I have to ask
    [COLOR=Lime][SIZE=1]other favorite middle-earth related games: The One Ring RPG, published by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game, published by FFG[/SIZE][/COLOR]

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afaren View Post
    This something I have made many jokes about in game. But this would make hunter far more usefull for raid. I would love to see a healing stance for hunter. I see hunter as expert in survival in the wild and should have more then just a poison healing benefit for groupe play.
    Also a range corruption removal, and interuption skill would be very usefull.
    I'd love to see a healing trait-line and stance for the hunter too. Maybe one where most of our skills did not cause damage but instead a portion of the damage they would have caused provide heals for our fellows?
    [COLOR=Lime][SIZE=1]other favorite middle-earth related games: The One Ring RPG, published by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game, published by FFG[/SIZE][/COLOR]

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    I'd love to see a healing trait-line and stance for the hunter too. Maybe one where most of our skills did not cause damage but instead a portion of the damage they would have caused provide heals for our fellows?
    I think this falls in line with the 'ranger' idea - ranged dps, melee, heals - which I certainly think would be an interesting class. I'm all for a ranger class, but I'm not sure it's popular with the majority of the hunter crowd.

  9. #209
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    I'm not sure if anyone's really mentioned this one real in-depth yet, because I think most of us forget it even existed.

    Fix Bow of the Righteous! We have TWO impractical legendaries, not just one. Bow of the Righteous's power restore is pointless now that it's been nerfed and hunters rarely run out of power as it is anymore, so maybe changing it to a morale return instead would be in order? If it returned morale, I'd have it slotted all the time.

  10. #210
    I feel that most of my two cents regarding hunter survivability have already been stated by others in this thread, however, my opinion on how to alter the trapper of foes line differs from many others in the thread.

    Currently, trapper of foes provides extraordinary single target cc ability (when adaptation is in play, such as ToO, hunters can lock a mob down for longer than a burglar or lm) such as long duration cc combinations of bard's arrow and distracting shot. However, it substantially hurts our primary role, dps, without much compensation. Instead of completely revamping the line and discarding the idea of cc, I feel that it would be more beneficial to alter some of the utterly useless traits in trapper to provide useful debuffs for the entire raid.

    Spring-Loaded Traps - I feel that this trait should be given a large - armor debuff, functioning somewhat similar to the way improved rend does (stacking with it to accommodate a champ running improved rend) which would add a raid wide damage buff to trapper of foes.

    Sturdy Traps - I feel that this trait should include a + attack duration and induction time debuff that would add a raid wide damage decrease component to trapper of foes.

    Heart of the Bard, and to a lesser extent Barbed Hinderance, Stealthy Shot, and Heightened Senses could also be due some altering for more use in a cc/debuffing role.

    Both of these changes would also give more importance to the 2/3/4 trait bonuses the line has, as well as building upon the use of combat traps to keep these debuffs up the entire fight. I feel that these changes would be a good start for giving hunters more for traiting trapper of foes while not radically changing the line.

    Also, Kelsan, welcome to the wonderful world of the hunter forums!

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    ...
    What I’d like to get from you all are the top 3 things you’d most like to see changed about the Hunter.
    ...
    I'm not going to post a thesis nor am I asking for a whole rewrite of the class.

    1. Bleed to stack, to some reasonable and rotation-able number. 5?
    2. A corruption remover that can be used before the target is at 50%. Does any other class have this restriction on their corruption remover?
    3. Something about traps. Simplification so I don't have to devote 1/3 of a bag to them. Robust enough that a group won't think that the time to lay one is totally wasted by the first AoE skill.

    I think 1 & 2 can be done relatively easily. 3 is more problematic but I think it needs to be done. If you can show progress on 1 & 2 I think the Hunter community would welcome you with open arms.

  12. #212
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    I hope Kelsan is still following this thread.

    I just realised in an OD Ivar t2c run what most bugs me about hunters: lack of mitigation. No matter if there are 1,2 or 3 hunters the first to die at Gortherons hand are the hunters 1,2 or 3 depending on how many you take to the raid - all one shot - not on a bad crit or dev - just on a normal attack. Of course there might be select few hunters who manage to get their mits up to 8-10k which will barely survive and be healed but they'll either need to sacrifice quite some agil--> phys mas, crit ---> dps for it or have very high morale pools also at the cost of dps. And in the OD Gortheron Fight DPS is top priority, so you cannot really sacrifice it at that point. Ergo, hunters are undesirable to bring to the raid.
    No healer can heal through such damage and hunters (i guess same is valid for burgs and even graver considering they are often in stron AoE melee range) have nothing to deal with such damage.

    So in conclusion the one thing I'd like to see is reasonable Mitigation while maintaining our dps.

    Suggestion

    While it bears some problems I'd like to see 1 point of phys mit and 1 point of tact mit from agil. Problems: Where is the relation of the stat (Agil) to the effects (Phys Mit, tact mit), which are obvious for Might-Phys mit; will- tact mit. And Wardens would get another source of mitigations which is not really intended or practical for guards.

    I hope you can find a solution to the problem.

    Sul

  13. #213
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    ~Burn Hot and Intent concentration being usable on the moves

    ~Camouflage: your literally stuck for 4 seconds after camoing. Its kinda like, if that animation wasnt there, I'd be able to easily drop creep aggro right when they decided to just zerg me in a raid, and some other doors open up too


    neat thread!
    Last edited by myforumacc2; Apr 01 2013 at 12:00 PM.

  14. #214
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    I preferre it if Burnhot and Intent Concentration would be just be useable on the move if traited. Otherwise they should remain the same.

  15. #215
    As noted on my first post on the first page, I think the definition of the word "Revamp" needs to be clarified? Are you talking from the ground up re-define the class, or just looking at what needs to be addressed to at least make us competitive? I personally do not think we need to be re-defined, but better defined. Our main role is DPS with a 2nd of CC, unfortunately DPS can be done by other classes which also offer other abilities groups want. Our CC well thats pretty self evident to anyone who tries to trait yellow for more than 30 seconds. I believe just a few core changes to our DPS will put us back to where we need to be. But there is sooooo much about the class that is just plain dumb (Outdated or useless Legendaires for an example) that a re-work from the ground up on our skills is probably needed as evident with all the posts.

  16. #216
    My opinions on a hunter revamp:

    First off, I really don't like the idea of a revamp. I love the way the hunter plays. Many others do too. From what I see, it is one of, if not the most popular class. It doesn't become that if it is broken. You don't "fix" stuff just to do it. Some of these ideas being thrown around would completely change the basics of the hunter.

    1. We shouldn't have better heals as that has nothing to do with being a hunter. If I want heals, I'll group with a healer. Hunters heals should be pathetic so that hunters have to pick their fights.

    2. There should never be a way to generate focus on the move. Just read the tool tip that pops up when you put your mouse over the focus bar. This is another mechanic that brings a little challenge to hunters. If I can just stand out of range of enemies while kiteing and still killing them, there would be zero challenge.

    These two things being changed are my biggest worries. They would completely change how the hunter is played. Hunters are already pretty easy, we don't need win buttons.

    The only thing I would like to see with the class revamps are all classes being given clear roles in group play again. Hunters should be the top single target DPSers. Champs should be the top AOEers, etc... Then you can start working on making some challenging content again, which would help force classes back into their primary roles.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    My opinions on a hunter revamp:

    First off, I really don't like the idea of a revamp. I love the way the hunter plays. Many others do too. From what I see, it is one of, if not the most popular class. It doesn't become that if it is broken. You don't "fix" stuff just to do it. Some of these ideas being thrown around would completely change the basics of the hunter.

    1. We shouldn't have better heals as that has nothing to do with being a hunter. If I want heals, I'll group with a healer. Hunters heals should be pathetic so that hunters have to pick their fights.

    2. There should never be a way to generate focus on the move. Just read the tool tip that pops up when you put your mouse over the focus bar. This is another mechanic that brings a little challenge to hunters. If I can just stand out of range of enemies while kiteing and still killing them, there would be zero challenge.

    These two things being changed are my biggest worries. They would completely change how the hunter is played. Hunters are already pretty easy, we don't need win buttons.

    The only thing I would like to see with the class revamps are all classes being given clear roles in group play again. Hunters should be the top single target DPSers. Champs should be the top AOEers, etc... Then you can start working on making some challenging content again, which would help force classes back into their primary roles.
    I take it you don't play a capped hunter or you only solo? You just outright stated some of the problems hunters have in raid and PvMP environments, except opposite.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Belaeren View Post
    I hope you are not thinking that a Hunter has a singular role of DPS, and thus should have higher DPS output than an RK with dual roles of DPS and Healer. Because we RKs didn't sign up to be jack of all trades, master of none - that matters in selecting raid team composition. We don't want raid leaders to only bring Hunters and Minstrels because both are better in the new system (as an example) in DPS and Heal roles, respectively, than RK is in either.

    IMO Hunter is dual role of DPS and CC, while RK is dual role of DPS and Healing.
    There is a massive difference between the two "Dual Roles".
    A healing RK that swaps to DPS midfight is significantly nerfed, but is still capable of decent damage, and can swap back to healing at any time, in combat, with only a slight time requirement. Further, EVERY single bit of raid content requires healing, during the majority of the fight.

    A DPS RK that swaps to healing midfight is significantly nerfed, but is still capable of decent healing, and can swap back to DPS at any time, in combat, with only a slight time requirement. Further, EVERY single bit of raid content requires DPS, during the majority of the fight.

    A CC hunter that swaps to DPS midfight is significantly nerfed, but is still capable of decent DPS, and can swap back to CC at any time, in combat, with little/no time requirement. However, only a very limited amount of content requires CC, and almost none requires CC during the majority of the fight.

    Here is the real kicker, and difference between the Dual-Role idea:
    A DPS hunter CANNOT swap to CC midfight! A hunter that is traited for DPS has only ONE in-combat CC skill that can be used at range: Distracting shot. And that is a 10 seconds daze on a 3 minute CD. That is it, that is the CC that a DPS hunter can use at range. Now, it is true that circumstances can change our options, but not significantly. If you are out of combat, you can drop a trap (requiring you to move the mob over the trap once combat starts), and if you are in melee range you get a 3 second melee daze and a 5 second AOE daze with CotH. Not real CC.

    Fortunately, EVERY single bit of raid content requires DPS, during the majority of the fight. Otherwise hunters would be useless.
    DPS champs, RKs, and Burgs all provide significantly more utility, midfight, without needing to completely retrait. Maybe swap gear, but not totally retrait.

    And don't forget, for hunters it is nearly an all-or-nothing retrait, requiring 3 legendary traits and 5 yellow traits to have full, sustainable CC. If you want to keep DPS traits you can get an AOE root on a 3 minute CD, and a 15 second fear on a 30 second CD. That is 2 legendary traits just to get access to the two worst types of CC, and with massive drawbacks to each.

    TLDR; Hunters are not dual-role. Maybe after a total revamp, but not likely.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160000000aea6e/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    Hey all,

    It’s your friendly-neighborhood-hunter-dev here to say ‘Hello’ and get the discussion going on the very exciting Revamp you’ve been hearing about.

    What I’d like to get from you all are the top 3 things you’d most like to see changed about the Hunter. These can be sweeping changes, like Focus has intrinsic value or mobile combat, or small-focused changes, like alterations to specific skills or rotations.

    I’d like to avoid the snarky comments/suggestions as that just slows the process down. So please, avoid posting things like:
    “Everything!”
    “Have you read anything I’ve posted in the last year?!”
    “What’s the point? Not like you’ll listen!”

    I want you to be honest and critical, but stay on topic and come at this with a desire to see real change.
    Now that I see lotro is taking the hunter seriously since the major break of the hunter on September 27, 2011. I would first like to say the top thing you can change about my hunter is first and formost give me 17 character undeletes, 2 kinhouse undeletes for free. thats 17 x $25 each, which is around $425 worth of undeletes to put me back to where I was before hunters were neglected to the point I just deleted everything after knowing it wasnt going to be fixed for years.

    Second, would be to... well I guess get my hunter back first so I can beta all the changes since RoI.

    Third would be to roll back all the changes you made to nerf Press Onward that was done about 3-6 months before RoI release (most hunters will know what im talking about), the one where it no longer gave you full health and power once per turtle fight at 65 while being in endurance stance, which would be a start, and make endurance stance what it used to be, which was reduction in hate and power cost to such a degree it can be used to last the entire duration of a turtle type boss fight when we were 65, with the use of one Pre Nerfed, pre RoI Press Onward. This is where the hunter first became unbalanced. Then we can take it from there. Also noting that endurance stance was the main stance of most hunters who had all end game gear because they could increase thier damage output on gear without getting agro the whole fight without running out of power, but storing it up for the end of the fight, by sacrificing stance damage (i.e. gear was used as bonus damage instead of strength stance), the real bonus was if you had enough power toward the end of the fight to switch to strength stance and have insane damage, which you deserved to have, by having the best gear in game, at the end of a boss fight with your left over power.

    Guess it might be too much to ask for a full free character undelete. So this will probably all never happen anyways, good luck hunters, im glad to see you got someone who will actually listen to you all now. I want to expecially give a hand to Lendas since he really stuck it out for all these years while I ctrl + alt + delete, if anyone deserves thier changes around the hunter forum its him. Good luck buddy.
    Last edited by wolfers; Apr 04 2013 at 02:06 AM.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strikerin View Post
    There is a massive difference between the two "Dual Roles".
    etc
    Quite. claiming hunters have a dual role is patently absurd. And on top of all your good points most Raid bosses are completely immune to what little CC a dps hunter has anyway.

  21. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    I take it you don't play a capped hunter or you only solo? You just outright stated some of the problems hunters have in raid and PvMP environments, except opposite.
    You could always just check my profile instead of acting like a two year old. Its not like I have anything hidden.

    Based on your response, it is clear that you have l2p issues, not class is broken issues. I have never had a problem with immobility, or health, in raids. The only times I do are after the tanks die.

    Immobility for focus is the most basic mechanic of the hunter class. The entire class is built around it. Just put your mouse over the focus bar and read the tooltip. If you don't like the basics of the hunter class, why are you rolling a hunter? That doesn't even make sense. Why would you change the basics of one of the most popular classes? Why would you want to make the hunter an extremely easy, op, class? How is that fun?

    Now try arguing the actual points.
    Last edited by Cirgellon; Apr 04 2013 at 11:36 AM.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You could always just check my profile instead of acting like a two year old. Its not like I have anything hidden.

    Based on your response, it is clear that you have l2p issues, not class is broken issues. I have never had a problem with immobility, or health, in raids. The only times I do are after the tanks die.

    Immobility for focus is the most basic mechanic of the hunter class. The entire class is built around it. Just put your mouse over the focus bar and read the tooltip. If you don't like the basics of the hunter class, why are you rolling a hunter? That doesn't even make sense. Why would you change the basics of one of the most popular classes? Why would you want to make the hunter an extremely easy, op, class? How is that fun?

    Now try arguing the actual points.
    Wow, someone's upset. I'm afraid I'm not the one acting like a two year old here.

    I'm not even going to go into the nonsense you're spouting off about 'my l2p issues' and all that stuff I obviously said about having trouble playing (despite my two-sentence long post simply asking your playstyle, I can't figure out where your tirade about focus is coming from). I doubt I'd have multiple T2 and T2C completions, both in the new instances and many, many older ones when they released, if I needed to 'l2p'. I've been playing the class for five years and have seen all the changes that it has gone through and adjusted to each and performed better than most, despite many of them being negative to us, and will continue to do so, but wouldn't it be nice if we weren't having to function with so much neglect from devs?

    E-peen flexing aside, the point here is to look for ways to IMPROVE the class, not backtrack. If you don't see why hunters are in a bad spot, then you clearly are doing things that don't make it so apparent, which being a raid baby and backseat hunter is usually one of those things. If you play PvMP, run challenging content that truly forces you to push your character to the limit, then it becomes very apparent we could be better in many ways. A good hunter doesn't just 'make it by'.

    And to your previous post, hunters are definitely the top single-target DPS still, no changes needed there.

    No one said we needed focus on the move, if we wanted that, then just take focus out altogether because it would be pretty much pointless if we could return it without inductions. Focus changes aren't even remotely what people are asking for. I definitely didn't bring this topic up, so, take your own advice, and I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    Now try arguing the actual points.
    What we do need is to remove all the stupid and debilitating animations that effectively give us a root/stun effect, fix broken/outdated/useless legendaries (press onward and bow of the righteous.. seriously), give us a useful third trait line, and at least give us our pre-RoI mits back so we're not squishier than most light armor classes even. Combine legacies, tracking skills, etc. Give us FEASIBLE ways to defend ourselves (just like hmm.. I don't know, every single other class has?), besides that ridiculous bubble, there are MANY, MANY instances where hunters are in positions where healers/tanks can't get to them fast enough (Smaug T2, for example). Keyword: HOUSEKEEPING. We're an out of date class, we need to be updated.
    Last edited by Kajil; Apr 04 2013 at 07:17 PM.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    If you don't like the basics of the hunter class, why are you rolling a hunter?
    The 'hunter' i rolled bears no resemblance to the class it is now. The hunter I rolled could off-tank end-game content in a pinch and didn't die at the first harsh look. If Turbine didn't spend the resources they do on unasked for changes they get wrong anyway instead of developing new content that wasn't in perpetual beta we'd all be happier.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsan View Post
    Hey all,

    It’s your friendly-neighborhood-hunter-dev here to say ‘Hello’ and get the discussion going on the very exciting Revamp you’ve been hearing about.

    What I’d like to get from you all are the top 3 things you’d most like to see changed about the Hunter. These can be sweeping changes, like Focus has intrinsic value or mobile combat, or small-focused changes, like alterations to specific skills or rotations.

    I’d like to avoid the snarky comments/suggestions as that just slows the process down. So please, avoid posting things like:
    “Everything!”
    “Have you read anything I’ve posted in the last year?!”
    “What’s the point? Not like you’ll listen!”

    I want you to be honest and critical, but stay on topic and come at this with a desire to see real change.

    Hey Kelsan, I wanted to come back here to help you even further, even though all my charcters are deleted, I was around before and after all the major changes that took place that resulted in all the disatisfaction. I want to help you understand it in a more in-depth and fully detailed understanding, so you can understand everything and every hunter more fully when you see posts around the forum, even when hunters fight with each other. It can be very confusing sorting stuff out if you don't know the viewpoint of each hunter and where its coming from so here we go, a complete full in depth history and look at hunter changes and how they impacted each hunter.

    Hunters were a class that, and knowing alot of hunters, all have differant ways we want to play our character. One change here or there can affect one hunter alot and another it might not even matter. Let me explain this a little more in depth, with press onward and bow of the rightious, because this is at the core of hunter changes. Get ready to read alot because its not a simple subject.

    And even more in depth before I explain that so you understand what im saying, would be, that hunters have usually three things on thier mind when setting up thier characters, 1. Max Damage 2. Power 3. Survivablity/tanking and Melee. These three things could be achieved in differant ways, which are: Gear, Weapons, Legecies on weapons, Class-Book, Traits, Legendary Traits and bow chants/consumables. Most hunters that I knew end game had stacked alot of in combat power regen (icpr) on thier gear which freeded up everything else for them to use for max damage, melee, health, ect.

    On the other hand, hunters like me, chose to stack up on large power pools without using in combat power regen (icpr) on gear, freeing up everything else for Max Damage, health, melee, ect. I have to admit that those hunters who stacked up on icpr and used Press Onward would never ever run out of power no matter what. A hunter like me that had went for large power pools, actually used Press Onward to just refill my large power pool back up to full power halfway though fights on long bosses. Now when Press Onward was nerfed 3-6 monthes before release of Rise of Isenguard (RoI), it ultimatly reduced the power of the people who stacked up on icpr, but it majorly hurt those who depended on it to refill thier large power pools such as hunters like myself who kept a 4300 power pool. At that time when the Press Onward was nerfed, it was because the dev at the time felt that hunters had too much power and it wouldnt be challenging if they dint reduce it.

    What they failed to realize is that they attacked only one slot type source that hunters would use to get thier power from, and it was in the Legendary Traits slot type. Hunters still could stack power on thier gear, in the form of Straight power or in combat power regen, they could also still use bow chants at full strength to reduces power cost, they could still use endurance stance for full power reduction still. So the nerf to Press Onward was a nerf that forced hunters to now look at stacking power using the other choices, instead of evenly adjusting power down on all forms of souces for power for hunters, they took an axe and just chopped the legendary trait instead.

    But they soon seen that what they intended did not work, and they further nerfed bow of the rightgeous, again attacking the legendary traits instead of accross the board cuts, which resulted in hunters with my playstyle (large power pools), absolutly losing thier only way to refil for thier really large pools of power rendering power pool gear uselss forcing in combat power regen sytles only. What the dev did not realize, is the legendary traits should never have been attacked, because of the hunters who relied on those to fill thier large pools, which were not the problem, what was the problem really was, was the in combat power regen stacking on top of the large power pool refills, so this should have taken the form of nerfing gear with in combat power regen on it till power was at a level where the devs wanted the power cut to be at, and then to look into legendary traits, not with an axe but with a shaver.

    This was by far the largest and most unsatisfactory action taken by devs which lead to huge unbalances in the hunters. Next I want to take you too look at the end game gear of moria, all of the end game gear had +power pool on it, there was no sets with +in combat poewr regen for the second best set types to make up for this cut to Press Onward, nor even the best raidiance set. So that really lob-sided the hunters who had large power pool hunters at end game, to then need in combat power regen gear end game which did not exist, nothwithsanding, that hunters still had access to in combat power regen jewelry as thier only source, which was only a fraction of what was needed.

    I think when moving forward with hunters development, it needs to keep in mind two types of hunters, the ones who want in combat power regen, and the hunters that want to stack large power pools as thier main sources of power. And to accommodate both of those types of hunters, also keep in mind that there will always be hunters that will stack every type of slot as power, thats not really a bad thing and power shouldnt be nerfed considering those slots could have been stacked with Max Damage benefits instead, but were sacrificed by those power stackers for thier large power pools or stacked icpr at a great cost to thier damage output.

    Another huge issue was with stances, and it was quickly obvious to me that the dev at the time of RoI release did not know what they were doing based on the unfinished endurance stance and even the disheartening fact that it was given to the community as a statment in words in the dev diary release notes for RoI hunters, saying they know the endurance stance is unfinished and will be looked at in the future. Can you imagine the look of suprise on the faces of any hunter who used endurance stance as thier main stance to run in and as a part of the entire playstyle when hearing that come from a dev? But I'll explain this further later because the changes of RoI were so great to all classes and the fundamental system, that it also needs to be explained to get a full picture.

    Endurance stance was so important that even raid leaders on the turtle in moria would command all hunters be in endurance stance at the start of the battle. Thats how important endurance stance was. I was a hunter with huge power pools, no in combat power regen or very little of it, and used Press Onward as my main power refill and endurance stance as the main source of keeping agro off me the whole battle and be able to even last the whole fight. It was very important that endurance stance be given as much attention as the other stances. So this too was a major unbalance of the hunter when it was released, it was even nerfed on top of it when RoI was released with improved endurance.

    When I was in moria endurance stance was the only way a tank could hold agro off of me because I had maxed damage out on every aspect of my character. I always views the endurance stance as the main stance every endgamer would use because damage would be stacked so high that it would be the bonus damage of those who could take advantage of the decreased hate and not lose damage for it because gear damage was so high.

    So this is my recommendation for how to view stances that accomodate lower damage hunters and end game hunters:
    Take the max damage of a hunter and if its low, allow them to be able to run in strength stance without being able to pull agro off a tank the whole fight up to the point of when that hunters damage reaches a certain level. Then if the hunters damage is high, then make it so they can run in endurance the whole fight without pulling agro off the tank, and allow them to switch to strength stance toward the end of the battles 25% mob health or lower and then be able to burn up the rest of thier power in strength stance. This would be the case with most end game hunters on long battles.

    Next I wanted to get into what I wanted to explain further about RoI and the majorechanges it had on the hunter. On top of having huge nerfs to the power sector of the hunter in from of legendary traits, which forced hunters like myself to have to sacrifices max damage source slots now be power source type slots, RoI did something even more unbalanced. It now free'd up max agility, talk about throwing a wrench into the whole chain. This leaves hunters trying to stack agi to get max damage at the same time trying to make up power loss the nerf to press onward has created, leaving in combat power regen with high agi as the gear to be sought (max power gear couldnt be sought because there was no way to refill that much of a power pool power loss, which press onward nerf created).

    At the same time as all this is going on, we hear the word that other DD are now going to have same max damage as hunters, and when I say that, I mean in that in a very loose form of a tank being able to hold agro off of a DD, after all a damage dealer is only as good as the amount of damage he can deal up to the point that tanks can't hold agro off of them. We can call that a soft cap max damage. So while hunters can easily reach soft cap max damage, so can all the other classes, so with that in mind, it brings me to my next issue with hunters (which is where the utility complaints you see come from, and the complaints on being equal with other classes and not be as survivable as them:

    Pre RoI, classes were balanced in a way that was give and take, for example champions had high survivablity but lower single target damage and high aoe damage. while hunters had no aoe, and high single target. Support jobs like loremaster had mid ranged dps but tons of cc options. so naturally when you give all these classes soft cap max damage, they got to keep thier main jobs abilites and the damage equal to hunters, while hunters got to keep thier main job which was the soft cap max damage but nothing else. This is where the scale tipped onto the hunter, which was fighting to keep power up to keep soft cap max damage, and every other class got soft cap while not having the same struggle, and keeping thier other main jobs features.

    So you can see the delemia now. if you understand these basics you'll start to understand how to go forward and what everyone is saying about hunter, and why there is so much in fighting right now as hunters only feature is soft cap max damage and thier struggle for power.

    If power was easy for hunters, they might actually be able to stack up on health like before and agi to the point where they can survive as sufficiantly as a champions while keeping thier soft max damage cap.

    If all races are to have same soft max damage cap, is it so bad that they all should be able to have the same survivablity or aoe damage as the other classes that got the sam soft max damage cap, which was and still is the only feature of hunters? This is something only a dev in your shoes can ask themselfs or change.

    I think these things I just mentioned are all contributing factors to what you see today, and should all be considered when going forward.

    The next things to be looked afterward would definatly be the abilities and thier scale, and old traits viablitiy. Which I thinki would be alot easier to fix after the first two major overhaulls are done. When RoI moved to a uncapped stat system and gave every class max damage soft cap, it became a game of how fast an ability was and how much damage the uncapped stats gave it which entered into play an unknown variable which was uncapped stats. Long casting abilities hunter has like heart seeker was not given a damage increase or really even looked at for its viablity post RoI compared to other classes, and how other classes seen the increase in damage on uncapped stat abiliies that were fast cast drivien.

    Most classes had no problem hitting max cap with thier abilies after uncapped stats like burg because of how fast the abilities were being used. Champions in some cases would be doing three times the damage of heart seeker in the time I got one heart sekker off. This all needs to be taken into account with all devs of all classes now working together with data sharing because of the uncapped stat system. I wouldnt be able to do that from my end, its a monsterous task, and the simple fix of just raising these long casting abilities base damage of hunters up three fold would probably be the fastest and easiest fix, giving hunters a freedom to not have to stack every stat point into agi to hit the soft max damage cap, but maybe into survivabilitiy or other things such utilities as trapping line traits ect. to the point of maybe even other classes main jobs.

    I think the most major things to a hunter are the Stances, Legendary Traits (if fixed), and Weapon Legecies. Everything else should be developed to accomodate the combonations those three major things offer.

    I hope this helps alot. Most times when hunters argue its really just two differant hunter play styles that have been affected by major changes to thier stances, traits, and power pools, trying to be heard over the other. hopefully it wouldn't be like that after the root problems with the hunter are fixed. If you ever want to talk in person and have questions about things send me a message. I been around since the start up till RoI and can tell you what most hunters are thinking when they say stuff. Most times I just see the fights over misunderstandings of each others playstyles.
    Last edited by wolfers; Apr 05 2013 at 01:49 PM.

  25. #225
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    111
    Short version of my above post:

    1. Increase base damage on all hunter abilities three fold, to allow the retraiting of all damage line traits into trapper line traits, giving hunters a second usefulness such as a fully traited trapper line while still being able to max damage to the tanks ability to hold agro.

    2. Give back press onward legendary trait to use in combat and have it give 4k health and power to the hunter, then correctly nerf in combat power regen stats to equal hunters who have stacked max power and use the new press onward as a power refill, offer both in combat regen and max power sets of end game gear.

    3. change stances to: low dps hunters can run in str without pulling agro from tanks and get rid of power penalty, endurance stance for high dps hunters can run in without pulling agro from tanks -20% hate reduction = 20% more damage without being noticed. Last, make precision the choice of raid hunters with the -block/parry/evade bonus, because raid mobs are harder to hit then dungoen bosses, and let them use press onward for a one time full power refill per boss or huge life saver during runs.

    4. Undelete my 17 characters so I can come back for cheaper then $425 bucks lol.
    Last edited by wolfers; Apr 05 2013 at 04:59 PM.

 

 
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