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  1. #76
    I think an important thing to note is that hunters aren't bad as such. Yes some improvements are needed, but generally the hunters are ok. The great problem is every other class in comparison. Burglars can do similar single target dps AND add +10% dps from every other member of a team raid, and on top of that they have several useful survival skills (mischievous glee, knifes out, touch and go) and debuffs on top of that.
    Champions have massive dps too and have AoE damage as well as heavy armor and big bubbles, on top of that, they seem to have better aggro management than hunters. (dps parses between a tank and a champ as well as a hunter reveals that the hunter draws aggro at lowest dps)
    Rune keepers have instant-cast burst dps, and can do healing too when needed (I know they can't do both effectively at the same time, but being able to switch to healing when things start going wrong is an advantage). Because of their heals and survival skills (armor of storm comes to mind. I do not play an rk, but I've fought a fair few rks and hunters in Ettens as well as raiding with an rk) rks too have better survivability along with great dps.

    These are the 3 classes that a hunter has to compete with in raids for dps spots. I would rather not have hunters be overpowered but truth is that with our competition overpowered, it might be necessary. I'm lucky enough to have a great kin that takes me along to raids, but having done a lot of pugs too, I know full well the frustration as an rk/champ/burg is picked over a hunter for dps.

    The same thing shows in Ettens too. Hunters have ok damage but fewer survivability skills than the other classes, which means that any monster player will take down the hunter first. It goes faster and you know they will deal a lot of damage if left alive. If the other classes were more on par with hunter in survivability (assuming all in full dps trait that is), hunters would automatically have an easier time in Ettens due to less specific targetting. (let's face it, if you're playing a monster, you pick on the easiest class to take down first. Guilty of doing it myself on my warg)
    Duskdancer, warg: If found please return to Gwairin, lvl 85 hunter in Evernight

  2. #77
    Its difficult to limit to three things so I hope Kelsan wont exlcude any extras that myself or others suggest....

    1. Make giving a raid spot to a hunter worthwhile. We seem to be behind Champs and Burgs in what we can offer raids/fellowships so something needs to change here. Possibly some sort of buff/debuff as part of our skillset.

    2. Scrap the idea of a hunter being a CC class altogether (other classes do it so much better) and change the yellow trait line into something usefull. I pretty sure if you look at the numbers traiting in this line it tells its own story.

    3. Buff to dps to bring us back to where we belong which is at the top of the dps tree given that we do not have an alternative play style(I dont count the CC line as a alternative)

    4. Ability to track stealth without having to trait for it. When traited Heightened Senses you dont loose the target when they drop to stealth.

    5. Consideration for hunters when designing raid mechanics. The use of distributable damage for raid bosses makes us undesirable when compared to champs and burgs(touch and go).

    6. Make killing a hunter in pvp a challenge once more. I would like Creeps to fear us rather then looking at us a free reknown.
    NeXus on Snowbourn: Currently recruiting raid ready and available characters.
    Blister: Lvl 65 Champion Blostor: Lvl 65 Hunter Ruthod: Lvl 65 Loremaster
    Trandir: Lvl 65 Runekeeper Handlebar: Lvl 65 Burg Blisty: Lvl 65 Minstrel
    Litter: Lvl 3? Warden Jedweird: Lvl 3? Captain

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by sirwillow View Post
    While hunters should be kings of dps, I think some are wanting to put hunters into god-mode
    This needs to be addressed right now cause its a common misconception; especially given that hunters are probably the only class in the game that ever (albeit for a short period of time) came close to having god-mode.


    The reason it can seem that way is because as the class is built right now; basically the only thing we can do is dps. Its part of the broken nature of the class. Since we don't have anything else to offer when we want to maximize aspects of our class, that dps and how we handle it (aggro management/survival) is the only thing we can emphasize.

    We want effectiveness. We want a clear role. We want a class to play that is more fun than frustrating.

    I hope, Kelsen, you'll know the difference between that and just wanting a Book-6 hunter.

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabli View Post
    - First, I would start by saying that our ability to DPS, in a raid environment, is actually fine.
    ...and like others have pointed out that any redesign needs to be balanced to be PvE not just PvMP, I'll add that any redesign needs to be balanced for solo & small groups in addition to being measured solely against a raid environment with the top tier gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabli View Post
    In Orthanc, several hunters (myself included) have shown that hunters were on par with champions and “unseen” burglars at lvl 75 : see this thread.
    Ignoring the fact that the thread is not as black & white as you make it out to be, why is *on par* the right place to be when those other classes ALL have major secondary capabilities or materially greater survivability relative to the hunter?

    Shouldn't we either have a major secondary capability or be materially superior at our only capability?

  5. #80


    I know that I have yet to really post, but these are some thoughts in short.

    First, I love being a hunter. I have a LM as well, but I continually find myself going back to my 85 Hunter. Having said that, the class needs revamping. I agree with many of the posts already submitted, but what I really want to see is:

    1. The Trapper of Foes trait line revamped. I have always wanted to try that line, but there has never been any real incentive to change to it. I assert that it should remain a bow-using trait line, but perhaps gain de-buffing abilities or the utilization of stealth. We already have corruption removal, but to have a place in a fellowship or a raid, there needs to be an incentive to take on a hunter. I see the Trapper of Foes trait line as one that either roots foes for a longer period of time, stuns them, or maims them so that the rest of the fellowship can finish them off. In history, archery has had several different uses and one in particular is at Agincourt. There the English longbow men played an enormous role in the decimation of the French army. Why not give us at least some of that capability.

    2. As stated by more qualified contributors to this thread, "Camouflage" needs reevaluation. The name "Hunter" seems to indicate someone or something that hunts/stalks a beast or foe without their knowing only to reveal themselves when the enemy has an arrow sticking out of their back. "Camouflage" on the other hand is "the ability to blend into surroundings, making it difficult for your foes to detect you as long as your remain still." This ability currently has almost no use. Please adjust, it so it is a needed ability or dispose of it. Perhaps it could give the Hunter a heightened chance of criticals or devastating criticals or allow the Hunter to move. If necessary, please make an Improved version of it so that you can only get it with a trait in the Trapper of Foes line.

    3. Barbed Arrow's slowing effect is nice, but it does not live up to its name. I would like to see the slowing effect increased and with more DOT. Certain arrows are more effective than others in archery for taking down certain prey. When hunting smaller animals or birds, you can use blunts on your arrows to kill the creature with impact damage. Larger animals are brought down with broadheads.

    This is longer than what I originally thought, so I apologize. If these concepts are not practical, then please accept this as just a humble assertion.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by uvm.tp View Post
    ...and like others have pointed out that any redesign needs to be balanced to be PvE not just PvMP, I'll add that any redesign needs to be balanced for solo & small groups in addition to being measured solely against a raid environment with the top tier gear.
    Hunter's single target dps is also incredibely viable without the myriad of raid buffs (let's say in 3 ou 6 man instances).
    However you are correct, my perspective is rather instanced content-focused

    Quote Originally Posted by uvm.tp View Post
    Ignoring the fact that the thread is not as black & white as you make it out to be, why is *on par* the right place to be when those other classes ALL have major secondary capabilities or materially greater survivability relative to the hunter?

    Shouldn't we either have a major secondary capability or be materially superior at our only capability?
    I agree that we should have a viable secondary role, I mentionned it in my post just as many us did in this thread. I agree that our CC trait line is currently useless in raids where a loremaster and a burglar bring more than enough when ennemies have Adaptation. I do believe that we are entitled to more than our parochial dps.

    Not all is so black & white you are correct :
    If burglars bring a lot more utility to the raid than us in addition to comparable dps, this dps is the result of a clearly (in my opinion) unbalanced PvMP set. Give us that +20% devastate chance, they will never be anywhere close to us again. I think the comparison with burgs is a strange one, and the "issues" are not on our end (Unseen set, stacking Revealing Marks etc).
    Champions going for full single target dps lose a bit of raid utility (specifically the ability to off tank).

    I believe we should be *on par* with other dps because if we are clearly above them in situations where ranged damage is not even favored, I fear other dps classes (mainly DPS-RK and champions) might feel useless. I want hunters to be wanted, viable and fun, not to be the "ultimate best dps no matter what" class.
    Gabrediel, Original Challenger of Sarouman | Gabramir, Original Challenger of Gothmog

    Unquale - Sirannon [FR]

  7. #82
    Don't have a hunter but one of the things we all need from them in a pvp group is to get rid of the wargs calling out every where we go.

    As it is now it takes two traited hunters, favorable terrain and a little bit of luck to get rid of one. I am not qualified to make any suggestion on how to make that happen, but at the very least make it so 1 hunter can get the job done instead of 2 working in coordination and not always successful.

    All creeps can track while hunters are our only trackers, make them good at it but still keep a bit of the hunt left in.
    Last edited by Armitas; Feb 26 2013 at 04:48 PM.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Welcome to the Hunter board!

    As a hunter who's essentially switched to playing Lore-master and Minstrel due to boredom (and competition in raid spots), here's what I think needs to be looked at now you seem to have some time on your hands:

    1) Hunters should be useful in a group setting, besides just DPS!
    Once upon a time there were differently specialized classes and our 'role' was to DPS the heck out of single-targets, while the Champion took care of AoE. Nowadays ANY class can do DPS, maybe not in the (time-limited) Tier II Challenge raids, but for just about everything else it doesn't really matter. Besides that, the other 'DPS classes' have gotten a strong secondary role, making them more useful in fights that aren't DPS-limited (like most trash). Add to that the armour changes that have made our medium-armour advantage over the other ranged classes negligible and the increasing requirement to 'stay close' in fights due to either surroundings or distributed damage which negates our 40m-range advantage and what's left is a class that can do pretty good DPS (like 3 others) and nothing else.

    2) Can you please figure out the purpose of our two main traitlines? And then have them built on our different strengths to provide two truly diverse experiences.
    The Huntsman and Bowmaster traitlines are a complete mixup. By design Bowmaster seems to be the more 'Archer with support' line, while Huntsman appears to build on more mobility, versatility and melee fighting. In practice however... they work quite differently. Due to the regeneration and mobility of the Huntsman this has become the de-facto traitline for group play (ever since MoM long inductions have become more and more difficult as fights have become more dynamic). While the Bowmaster with longer inductions and higher 'raw damage' would in theory be more suited in groups, it loses out in longer fights (less focus/power regen) and more dynamic fights (MOVE or DIE! bosses): Typical group scenarios. Yet it typically wins on it's higher crit chances and raw damage: which are more beneficial in the short, burst fights of solo and PvMP play. So we end up with weird situations like having traits to improve melee performance in what's regarded as the best group traitline (where you're not supposed to end up in melee).

    3) Scrap any skill or trait that mentions 'root', 'stun', 'daze' or 'fear', make a list of them and then use that as a guide to rebuild our CC tools.
    We've got a really powerful CC skillset... but... they all come with ifs and buts and most of all, are outdated. First of all, CC has fundamentally changed in the game since most of these skills were introduced. My Hunter can root up to 14 targets at once if he needs to... yet the last time I've seriously used anything like it were the days of Grand Stair and Halls of Crafting. CC-as-it-used-to-be: CROWD control has vanished and gradually been replaced by CC-with-surgical-precision due to adaptation, corruptions etc. Hence also the everlasting demand from Hunters for more reliability, longer durations and the importance of Distracting Shot.

    Trapper of Foes is the obvious victim of this. It has long been neglected due to too high costs for what it provided, but has been improved a lot. Yet it's outdated: All the trap bonusses are largely useless, 'Set Trap' is great while levelling but with our damage ability there's seldom need for controlling more than 1 enemy. In instances it's even worse because we can't even control the target of the trap (often resulting in an immune boss 'disabling' the trap before it can root the intended target for example). Which makes the whole traitline revolve around 2 traits: Increased duration of Bard's Arrow and Explosive Arrow. Which brings me to a final point... what's ever going to be the purpose of a CC-traitline if almost every single hunter is already running around with 2 of their 3 most powerful CC skills (Bard's and Rain of Thorns) because they're by far the most effective legendary traits.
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
    [URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
    [i]"The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."[/i]

  9. #84
    Welcome, Kelsan, and thanks for this thread!

    Without further ado...

    1. Improve 1-on-1 melee survivability

    I'd like an ability to designate one opponent and either reduce its damage output against the Hunter only, or increase the Hunter's mitigations against that opponent.

    Hunters shouldn't get across-the-board survivability against multiple mobs; that would erode the design of the class ("divide and conquer"). Greater 1v1 effectiveness fits the class better, and would also help when threat management tools fail and we steal aggro.

    2. Fix crowd control for everyone

    I understand why you don't want a fellowship to be able to perma-mez a boss and just beat it to death with impunity. But making bosses totally immune to CC is a frustrating solution.

    Perhaps instead of immunity, while a CC effect is active, the boss gains greatly increased defenses. This would let CC skills buy you a few seconds of breathing room, but not give you a completely unfair advantage over the boss.

    Additionally, you could reduce the duration of CC skills against bosses, or downgrade the effects by one step: stun...daze...root...slow.

    3. Add a bit more class complexity and some utility to "flavor" skills


    - Let us trait to gain buffs against a tracked target, or even learn its weaknesses ala the Loremaster's skill.

    - Help us be experts not just on DPS generally, but hitting foes with damage types specific to their weaknesses. We already have fire and light oils; how about traps that apply ancient dwarf, beleriand, or westernesse damage...or even acid, frost, or lightning?

    - Let us trait our Cure skill to cure both poison and wound effects.

    - Let us trait for greater Campfire utility: usable in combat, mitigates frost/shadow/fear effects. (Perhaps these are added to existing ToF traits: Combat Traps also permits in-combat campfire placement; Sturdy Traps or Spring-Loaded Traps also adds campfire effects?)

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Not to be redundant, but what I think are the most important changes have already been mentioned. So I'll mention them again for good measure

    1. A hunters primary role is ranged dps. It's really our only role because we can't do anything else effectively. We should be the best at it.

    2. Traits.

    ~There is absolutely no reason to trait multiple yellows. The debuffs and cc are subpar to other classes with the same capabilities.

    ~Legendary Traits. Press Onward and Bow of the Righteous need to be scaled/revamped/something.

    3. This thread has had a few interesting ideas. My favorite being the movement associated with Improved Fleetness, whether it be a toggle or something that needs to be traited.

    I think the biggest complaint from hunters is that we don't provide anything unique to a group/fellowship/raid. We just want to be special
    Mileejay ~ Minimiles ~ Mileewyn ~ Mileesaurus
    Windy > Brandy > Ark

  11. #86
    My main is not a hunter, but I have duo'd every bit of content since Sept. 2010 (f2p) whether it be leveling, instances, and pvmp (she's r12) so I am familiar with hunter viability in most aspects of the game.

    1) Tracking: Should be able to be done while mounted with the induction removed. As the only freepside tracker, they should at least be good at it.

    2) Red vs Blue: In its current state, blue line puts out more dps (general consensus) so what does that make red line? First I think red line needs a major improvement in terms of dps so that red > blue in terms of dps (combine endurance and strength stance?). Blue line then needs more focus on mobility (which was the original intention). As so many said before, fleetness should be passive when traited with tweaks here and there.

    3) Yellow: In lieu of recent changes to Guardian OP and Champion Glory, why not have hunters take on a "I can pretend to be a debuffing LM or mischief burglar" so I can fulfill a second roll in raids. Change endurance stance to a trapper line stance. Change skills to do less damage but debuff certain things ala LM lore skills or tricks.

  12. #87
    Hi Kelsan thank you for giving us the opportunity to have some input, i play my hunter solely to pvmp out in the moors three changes id like to see in order of importance

    1) ability to gain focus on the move ~ allow quick shot on the move

    2) boost to survivability ~ make press onwards instant cast on the move, sote passive on the move

    3) buff camouflage ~ increase to +10 stealth level similar to weaver long burrow, buff first shot from stealth

    The above changes are simple and will help us hunters out massively in the moors and not have negative aspects to our pve play.

    Thank you


  13. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    So, for suggestions:


    1) Improved Low Cut - Low cut removes slows on hit and provides 10 seconds of slow immunity.

    2) Bright Campfire - Buff the stealth detect up to 11. Literally.

    3) Return Barbed Arrow's bleed to 20 seconds. We both know why it was nerfed, and its shameful.

    4) Create a legendary trait that gives us the medium armor passives back that we lost in ROI. Put it in BOTR's place.

    As for the rest, here:

    The Good:
    • Quickshot - Generates focus, good damge, low CD, interesting mechanic with how stances affect it
    • Split Shot – AOE that generates focus
    • Swift Bow – High damage, low induction
    • Blood Arrow – good damage, no induction skill usable on the move that costs no power and little morale
    • Scourging Blow – A nice little melee skill that makes your next barbed arrow inductionless
    • Intent Concentration – Generates a big chunk of focus with a single click
    • Rain of Arrows – Great AOE skill when Arrow Storm is traited with it
    • Rain of Thorns – Instant AOE root makes for a nice Oh-Sh*t skill
    • Dazing Blow – Stuns and removes corruptions. Good melee skill.
    • Beneath Notice – Nice little aggro dump and power HOT, CD reasonable and animation is cool
    • Stance: Precision – Powerful focus generator that has some nice bolt-on relationships to skills, traits and legacies.
    • Return to Camp – Really nice way to travel around when they’re available to places where “Guides” won’t take you.
    • Blindside – Like the focus generation and love the ability to use on the move and the interrupt is great.

    The Meh:

    • Merciful Shot – Like the corruption removal, the CD is commensurate to its damage, but the -50% morale gate is unnecessary and focus cost too high for the amount of damage it does.
    • Penetrating Shot – Only thing wrong with this is the lack of CD that has the effect of overwhelming playstyles leading to derp-spam.
    • Low Cut – A non-target AOE slow has its uses but it being pottable leaves its pvp uses limited and low damage limits its pve usage.
    • Agile Rejoinder – Nice to have a heal in rotation, but meh because it’s gated by a parry event and the heal is too low still (even when modified by legacy)
    • Bard’s Arrow – I like the skill, but it’s not so powerful as to require a legendary trait.
    • Distracting Shot – Similar to Bard’s Arrow, to reach its full potency shouldn’t require a legendary trait, must less be a capstone one.
    • Burn Hot/Cool Burn – Definition of “meh”. It succeeds in what it’s supposed to do, but for a skill with a long CD (or high opportunity cost) it’s just not very sexy.
    • Bring Campfire – FINALLY scaled appropriately. The useless stealth detect earns it its “meh” status.
    • Purge Poison – Works fine, really should be fellowship wide without requiring traiting into TOF.
    • Passage of “X” – Track skills are nice but Heightened Senses should be incorporated into them natively.
    • Set Trap – Does what it’s supposed to do but its usefulness is mitigated by crafted traps.
    • Find the Path – The run speed is nice, gets a “meh” for being an OOC skill only.
    • Guide to “X” – Ports are awesome, but gets a meh for not being a dropdown
    • Cry of the Predator – Great induction-less fear, gets a meh for its genus-dependency
    • Stance: Endurance – Does what it’s supposed to do, but it’s rarely needed.
    • Focus – Crit buffs and focus generation are great. OOC only isn’t.
    • Needful Haste – Especially when combined with Resolute Aim this is an effective skill. Whose duration was nerfed and needs to be fixed to push it from “meh” to “good”.

    The Fugly:
    • Heartseeker – CD too high, Induction too long, non-crit damage too low, and there’s a big yellow “X” that shows everyone this failure is coming. Oh, and I’m 99% positive there’s a hidden nerf to its crit % chance. Its also the only pure damage induction skill that doesn’t give focus. AND it isn’t affected by oils.
    • Strength of the Earth – Straddling between meh and fugly, this nerfed skill is also bugged where the power return is barely worth the channel. Add to that a trait that few uses and you get a double fail.
    • Bow of the Righteous – Another nerfed trait that hasn’t been scaled since Moria.
    • Press Onward – Its induction is long enough that you will easily take as much damage to morale as the skill returns when the induction is completed. The definition of failure.
    • Barbed Arrow – Nerfed to make a dev’s warg happy, this skill deserves to have its full bleed duration returned to its pre-eotd level.
    • Hunter’s Art – Three different iterations depending on its stance, none of them worth a sh*t.
    • Camouflage - Can’t move. Can’t use in combat. No bonus from when attacking from stealth. Plus 1 stealth level. Nearly useless.
    • Stance: Strength – A good stance gone wrong. With its removal of threat, it no longer can even situationally compete with Precision in terms of damage.
    • Swift Stroke – Damage is too low, buff is too low.
    • Set Snare – Slow is too low, bleed is too low, can’t be used in combat.
    • Cry of the Hunter – A hot mess grab bag of other skills that ultimately does little to nothing in the way of survivability and fails to explain how a hunter could realistically do all of these things simultaneously with a single yell. I know it’s a video game, but c’mon man.
    • Fleetness – Expecting this to be controversial. It believe it’s fugly due to the fact that its non-traited version is useless and its traited version requires spamming to keep active.
    • Desperate Flight – What can I say? It’s an escape skill that takes you to the same place you would be if you didn’t escape. Der.

    To give us utility:

    This was the best TOF revamp I've ever read:

    The Woodsman

    The theme of this line is Strider. Where the Hunter class is built off Legolas, a more military style archer, Strider (as opposed to his iterations as Aragorn or Ellesar) was a wanderer of what remained of the lost kingdom of Arnor. He was a woodsman, he knew its lore, and that knowledge allowed him to aid his companions, not just kill his foes. With only a bow and broken sword he escorted his companions from Bree to Rivendell. He hid them, fed them, he cared for one stricken by a Morgul blade, and was their guide, using more his guile than his prowess in arms.

    Combat Traps – Affects Set Snare in addition to Set Trap.

    Strong Intimidation – Returns threat component to strength stance and adds morale

    Barbed Hindrance renamed. Becomes Fly, you fools! – Now affects Split Shot instead of Barbed Arrow.

    Spring Loaded Traps – removed. Becomes Back! – changes Desperate Flight to grant slow and root removal and immunity to targeted in fellowship. Requires the target have a traveling ration. CD reduced to 5 minutes.

    Heart of the Bard – removed. Becomes Cloak of the Rangers . Can Camo a member of fellowship in combat – CD increased. Stealth level remains at 1 but can be modified by target with gear. When cammo’d the target gains 100 ICPR and 300 ICMR. Breaks on movement or skill use, cloaked target remains in combat.

    Stealthy Shot – Removed. Becomes Down! – Beneath Notice can grant aggro drop to targeted fellowship member

    Sturdy Traps – Removed. Becomes Dunedain Healing – Purge Poison becomes Purge. Purges one of anything – fear, wound, disease, poison. Requires a crafted item. No group-wide option. Fellowship only.

    Heightened Senses – Removed. Becomes Hardy Campfire – Bright campfire creates a very short radius of stun immunity around itself. OOC only.

    Explosive Arrow – Removed.

    Capstone Option 1: Becomes A Northern Presence. Stance Strength – Grants a fellowship bonus to crit and dev magnitude, Stance Precision – Grants a fellowship bonus to finesse, Stance Endurance – Grants a fellowship bonus to block, parry and evade.

    Capstone Option 2: Becomes The Final Sacrifice - Requires a new skill, called The Final Sacrifice – Channeled skill, 2m range. The hunter transfers all of his current morale and power to targeted member of the fellowship or raid even if targeted is incapacitated. The hunter cannot be healed of power or morale during the channel. 30 minute CD.

    Line Bonuses
    Traiting Two : Low-Cut removes all slows and grants 5 seconds of immunity
    Traiting Three: Press Onward affects entire fellowship, CD increased to 15 minutes, unless modified by legacy.
    Traiting Four: Bright Campfire can be used in combat

    Other changes

    1. Distracting Shot’s CD reduction Legacy increases its CD reduction to 105 seconds. Becomes a Major legacy. A perma mez isn’t game breaking and shouldn’t be so penalizing to equip it, but should still have a significant penalty (the major leg) and having its duration remain at 15 seconds, would prevent the hunter from going away from it for too long.

    2. Heightened Senses becomes innate to its tracking skills. No reason we should be required to trait for something used so very rarely.

    3. Bright Campfire’s OOC regen is brought up to 3k. Also adds an in combat buff of 300 tactical and physical mastery.

    4. Tripewire changed to always start an FM on contact, as opposed to a chance. Now usable in combat. Same CD.

    5. Mobs attracted by a lure trap and enter its radius are stunned for 3 seconds.
    Last edited by ColorSpecs; Feb 26 2013 at 04:39 PM.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    1. I'd like to be more diverse right now it feels like my character is railroaded. The gear we get seems very slanted towards certain traits and abilities. Many of our traits are useless and we are basically only able to do DPS. While I can use lots of different skills in solo content (although melee is a bit too expensive powerwise) once I get in a group I'm basically hitting 1,2,3,4 and that's about it. We are a very popular class it would be nice if we could fit multiple roles. Personally, I'd like it if we had 4 trait lines with 14 traits each. Red Line could be for Bleeding and Animation Skills (DPS), Blue Line could be for Induction Based DPS, Healing, and AOE, Yellow Line could be CC, Debuff's, and Utility Skills, A New Green Line could be Melee and Survivability. In a small group the hunter could dps/cc/off heal/tank and in a large group they could dps or cc/debuff. I understand that a 4th trait line/ major trait revamp is unlikely but, their are tons of hunters and it would be nice if we could be diverse. Virtually everyone I know started off having their main char as a Hunter then switching to other characters because the group needed heals/tanking and their wasn't really a demand for Hunters.

    An old thread I had on the subject

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Going through this thread this stuck out most to me. Mostly because it is bold and in caps but also because it's 100% right. We want the ability to become the top dps class through work on our rotation not by just giving us a raw dps boost. Make hunters work for their dps, but give us the potential to be top tier at it if we do put that work in.

  16. #91
    1. Make the stopping/shooting or stopping/trapping more fluid. As it stands now, you stop running and hit your set traps skill and it says can't do that while moving, while annoyingly pausing your character almost completely out of your control for those split seconds the text is up. You have to really take a moment to pause before hitting any inductions/setting your traps, so I find that part always grates me on the class.

    2. I'm not a bad player, I play a very good warden, and a good captain, but on my hunter while levelling I kind of tend to die all the time in on level areas. If respawns happen on top of me, or if I pull too many NPCs, all leads to either a death or a very long rest before engaging again. Not to mention if the trap gets resisted or some other enemy just trolls right through it. I'm pretty much dead. Slows need to be really doubled to make up for the hunter not having a tanking companion and based mostly around inductions (you can't really rely on those while getting hit by things) and to top it all off we are a medium armor class so we are not meant to take that sort of damage anyway. And yet, we can't kill things before they get to us or that would make the class have OP dps compared to the others. The only solution is to double the slow percentage on the snares, have snares on the rain of arrows perhaps as well, and that leads me to the last point.

    3. Too many inductions, just too many. All the focus spenders are instant and have no induction, but to build up focus all the skills have an induction - why can't we vary this up a bit? To give hunters more flexibility since not always the target will be in the distance, coming at you, giving you time to set up inductions. A hunter is involved in lots of different scenarios but our toolset has no flexibility in the induction = build focus, instant = spends focus mindset. Vary it up a bit, might fix more about hunter survivability than one might think.

    4. Lastly, I don't like how long it takes between each induction. Particularly barbed arrow has a huge delay after using it. A smart hunter always has Penetrating shot ready to cut the delay down after using barbed arrow or else you will just stand there with the bow, staring at the enemy, with your next induction long highlighted on your skill bar, waiting for it to fire. I don't like the delay between inductions, it doesn't feel fluid. Plus you have the inductions themselves on top of that, it can get a little monotonous.

    5. Swift bow = our most fun induction, the only induction I actually look forward to using in order to see something impressive happen. I wish it fired more than two arrows. Why not three or four, why not five? Make it visually impressive. Down the damage of course (on each arrow), but maybe have each arrow after the previous (if it crits) perform some function, like for the first tier, add a long running but small damage DoT. (Taking a 5 arrow flurry), the next arrow if it crits in the set, have the final effect added and that would be a small snare percent. It doesn't have to be big, just 5% or so, something to give the skill the flourish it deserves.

    I mean something like that, would be fun to press.

    Instead of having a cast bar for the induction, it could be the hunter firing through the induction. Think about Swift Bow as a channeled skill and all the fun that could be had with that.

    For my last suggestion, I would also put on the table that the hunter inductions should all be changed to channeled skills, where instead of looking at a meter wind down, you could be watching your character performing an action or actions for the duration of the cast. Hunters as a channeling class, not an induction class, with more variety of shots between instants and channels in regards to focus spending. Doesn't that sound a lot more dynamic?

    Sounds a lot more fun if you ask me.

  17. #92
    Hello, nice to see we have a dev. And these are some changes I'd like to see the most, and are not lore breaking nor will overpower the class.
    Heart seeker. As other have pointed out, this skill is just useless, even as a starter, swift bow is much better. That cross on the enemy was something to tell enemies you're going to burn them down with a single skill, now it's more like, get close, I'll be like this for few seconds and will only hit you for 4k. My Idea, with red line make trait shot through the heart a 100% crit chance on heart seeker if barbed arrow is active on target. Same CD, same induction and even with that, it would have only some utility but not excessive dmg for PVP or PvE. Other option is just remove induction and leave it as it is dmg wise with 4-6 focus cost.
    Trapper of Foes, revamp, but already have been given some nice ideas, what I prefer is making it a fully support line, losing more damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs
    To give us utility:

    This was the best TOF revamp I've ever read.
    Hunter's art: I loved one idea said about making it Tier up and down. For example:
    • Precision: T1:3%crit chance. T2: 5%crit chance. T3: 8%crit chance.

    • Strength: T1: 5% dmg. T2: 10% dmg. T3: 15% dmg.

    • Endurance (since power regen will be ridiculous after U10, add survivality to this skill or less threat): T1:-5% perceived threat/+3% parry and evade chance. T2: -10% perceived threat/+5% parry and evade chance. T3:-15% Perceived threat/+8% parry and evade chance.

    Camouflage: Make it useable on the move with -50% movement speed debuff bound to revamped yellow line. (Passive)Also it increases effect of Improved Focus skill to +50% crit chance and magnitude, instead of 25% from unstealthed one.
    Improved Fleetness Just make it toggle skill with trait with same bonus but with 1 focus generation each 5 seconds without focus requirement to mantain but with power requirement per second (like minstrel's tales, RK's Our fates entwined...).
    Strength of the Earth, Bow of the Righteous: Remove them from traitlines, they do not worth a trait after last nerf, and less even a legendary trait.
    Press Onward: Make it instant cast, with same magnitude but decrease cooldown to 3 minutes, or reduce induction to 2 seconds, with 5 minutes cooldown but scaled morale restoration amount.

    I hope this ideas to be considered, since hunters have already been nerfed a lot, and after critical loss from agility we really need some good revamp we didn't have since MoM.

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    1. Hunter needs to be able to be master of single target DPS and/or be able to provide their group some reason not to take one of the other dps classes instead.

    2. Solo survivability-so many possibilities I will not go into this further.

    3. Threat reduction skills so that with smart and skilled rotations hunters can actually perform #1 and not wipe their group.

  19. #94
    I was considering posting something constructive, but...I think I've become too sour and jaded for such happy-go-lucky discussions regarding a new Hunter Dev and such.
    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, Defiant-Class, U.S.S. Say My Name, NCC-93144

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    get rid of this spamming penetrating shot idiocy that fell upon hunters in the last revamp. its just stupid to have a class focus around spamming one skill. Hunters have always been known as the "face rolling over the keyboard" class, now its just a joke that you just hit penetrating shot over and over.

    Reinstate the class trait that reduces the focus of penetrating shot and blood arrow down to 2 and put the penetrating shot cooldown back to what it was. this will allow hunters to use an actual skill rotation the way things used to be. Then give improved penetrating shot something useful such as a large debuff.

    my simple request
    Fallenhalo lvl75 hunter / Dropdee lvl 75 mini /Takeheart lvl70 captain / Strykingshot lvl 75 champ

    Eatininchina warg / Youkilledkenny BA

  21. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    England. north-west
    build on focus mechanism and let builds mess with it to fit critiria (same as suggestion in burg)

    Basic Idea:
    -build on focus mechanism to create 3 paths to supply 3 rolls
    bow-master focus on being a main ranged-dps roll
    -huntsmen focus on survivability and burst dps
    -trapper of foes focus be capable CC/debuffer
    -reduce amount of skills. create more friendly cooldowns and more skill-to-skill focus
    -remaster focus mechanism to be a huge builder of choosing between burst or consistent dps
    -focus on a line of self buffing skills to determine how to damage (fleetness/needful/burnhot/concentration/press-onwards)
    -focus skills now gives buffs depending on line.

    "Focus" mechanism change:
    focus will now range from 1-60. where 1 focus skills now are 10, 2 to 20 and so on. this will broaden the amount you can really play with this. the focus tab now can expand into a circle showing a clock and number in middle of focus built.

    as focus builds it increases the amount of skills usable. in some cases the skill will be usable on any focas above 1, but the skill increases in potency as it uses up more focus.

    stances are removed and there bonuses are applied in the trait tree. strenth of earth is also removed due to new skills applying better versions. the trait line now depicts how your class will play. parry responce needed for agile rejoin removed, the hot is not that potent to need a weird reponce for the class.

    when I talk about melee skills creating focus. blind side is same on all lines (30). swift-stroke, scourging, low cut give 10 focus. agile and dazing are potent enough with there hot and stun

    self buffs and focus skills:
    there are 5 buffing skills now with all 20s cooldowns and 20s durations and all share cooldown(reduced in huntsmen). these gives different buffs, either to damage, survivability or changes to mechanism. there is no longer an improved fleetness and press-onwards is an optional legendary to use along side these. these cost no focus to apply and are instant

    fleetness - sets runspeed to 110% (immune to slows) and removed miss on movement.
    intent concentration - gain 4focus per sec for 20secs.
    needful haste - reduces attack speed by 25% (skill inductions are now reduced in trait tree's and skills)
    burn hot - increases ranged damage by 10% and dot damage by 40%
    press onwards - heals for 30% max moral and debuffs crit chance by 5%

    these buffs skills are very potent I believe while being to be constantly able to be constantly on. huntsman will reduce the cooldown by 10s max (able to have 2 on at once) while trapper will hugely increase potency.

    also in the tree, focus skills get added effects to help focus there roll.

    The Bowmaster:

    -bowmaster build focus from only ranged skills. as you build focus skills have increased damage (+0.5% damage per focus)
    -the bow master is focused on inductions shortening but being used while standing still.
    -blood-arrow applies a dot on target (same damage as barbs but for 20s, only one on terget per hunter)
    -hunters art now does damage. 10s CD and increases ranged damage by 5% for 35s
    -penetrating shot reduces targets armour rateing for 3sec (doesn't stack at all)
    -merciful shot cd reduced by 10s (20s normal 10with legecy. removes 2 corruptions and damage slightly decreased. I want this to fit more into rotations for burst dps)
    -rain of arrow reduces cd of split shot by 5s

    -the huntsman gains focus from both ranged and melee skills. deep in line focus naturally generates 5 per sec

    -the Huntsman needs to reply on burst dps every ~20secs. applying buffs with both melee and ranged skills to remove inductions completely on some skills
    -swift-stroke removes quick shot induction once per use
    -low cut removes induction on split shot once per use
    -scouring blow removed induction on barbs arrow. it no longer removes dot, it re-applies it (this stacks with new barbs arrow useage. so 2 barbed dots can be on at once per hunter)
    -hunters art now doing damage. is usable with no focus cost (10s cd)
    -blood arrow applys buff for 30s (non stacking) once removed causes next attack to crit
    -rain of arrows removed cooldown of split shot
    -penetrating shot reduces murciful focus cost by 5

    Trapper of foes:
    while trapper should be good CC and some debuffs. I wanted to make the stance to give no real appeal to a dps class, in essence nurfing there dps, but giveing them high suvivability and lots of buffs for the group

    -press onwards heal increased to 60%
    -fleetness set speed is 120%
    -intent concentration applies a hot and pot for it's duration
    -burn hot causes all ranged attacks to apply stacking -(1xlevel) reduction to armour
    -needful haste lets next skill to cost no focus

    tracks skill are all combined into one track skill. trapper line very early on allows players to track stealth mobs. traps+snare+campfire are always usable in combat but with a 2m cooldown now, in trapper cooldown is reduced to 30s (this applys to snare too!) trap and snare share cooldown.induction reduced to 1s, removed in trapper

    -hunter gains focus from both melee and ranged skills. each focus increases finesse by (0.5xlevel)
    -penetrating shot roots target for 1s
    -blood arrow increases incomeing critical by 3% for 10s (non stacking at all)
    -rain of arrows increases inc damage by 3% for 10s (non stacking at all)
    -murciful shot focus cost removed and heals hunter for amount damaged

  22. #97
    You can probably see how difficult is to restrict ourselves to "top 3 things" (and why) ^^

    There's been a huge set of improvements and fixes suggested already, most of them related to actual issues and annoyances. I don't know how crazy general class revamp is going to be - or anything useful about it except for "everything is under scrutiny" (which means nothing imho), but I guess I only risk wasting few paragraphs.

    1. Differences between traitlines should be consistently reinforced by traits, legacies, skills changing their effects, combinations of skills.
    I'd add "stances" to that set, but since they've been decoupled from traitlines they have been attached to Hunter's Art instead. Not sure why would you want two half-baked systems instead of one, but solid. Still, no reason not to have *one solid* among two. Keep those upgrades separate so buffstacking everything is not possible. That's what we have trait system for - let us mix things AFTER you make lines more distinctive, not instead, but also keep limits on such mixing - like that "guaranteed crit/dev from camo" suggestion.

    For example, if Red is supposed to be burst dps, then add more burst-specific bonuses that cannot be accessed without enough Reds traited - even something as big as unlocking additional 3 focus pips ; if it is also about skill combos, then:
    good attempt - Barbed Arrow -> Scourging Blow (but no req...)
    meh attempt - Barbed Arrow -> Heartseeker (req: SttH)
    ugly attempt - reducing HS cooldown with Bard's Arrow (would be better if HS was not so pathetic... Yellow trait for either occasional Blue HS or cumbersome Red HS was a nail to the coffin - occasional AND cumbersome Yellow HS doesn't even count)

    If Red offers things said above and - in lalaland atm - long, powerful inductions - remove Fast Draft, either dump Critical Eye or distribute it based on how many Reds are traited (while you're at it, get rid of that damage bonus that is already crippled by skyrocketing Mastery). If Red is not supposed to be about that then figure out & state what it is supposed to be and remove other conflicting/benign traits. Yes, I know it can lead to simplification akin to steed tree system - but there's still 8 traits & three lines to choose from and color mixing still has some value. Let us choose color mixing if we want, don't preemptively fill entire traitline with everything-and-nothing.

    Do not blow up things that actually work, like Blue. Additional uses are fine as long as they do not cripple present ones. One exception: I'd rather see mobility moved to Yellow, (assuming it's something like "my" Yellow) and Blue being just about Focus, some non-derp form of AoE, perhaps further emphasized interruptions/corruption removals.

    2. Obsolete pieces. Either consolidate or simply remove and replace with something less... meaningless.

    a. legacies... separation between induction and focus ones is bad - and not just because it means more points to spend - would you REALLY consider slapping Induction legacies on Redline Bow (ohh, those powerful inductions, right?) when that space is needed for something... useful?

    b. traps - sigh... I *like* how diverse they are, how nicely *some* of them are affected by Yellow, I *hate* how they feel like eating several pages from the same dictionary - sure, you get a difference... when and if you get to the covers and how often THAT happens in comparison? No, this is not a plea to revamp them into ONE trap.

    3. Yelolow. Oh, where to begin...

    Simple solution: either make sure content, especially group content and PvMP, does not make Yellow irrelevant or remake Yellow to be relevant in such content. You can probably guess which option is less ridiculous. And cheaper. Oh, all right, ALL RIGHT, you did develop those new bossless raids... that's something.

    Less simple solution: CC alone, with limitations CC faces everywhere, is not enough for entire line. Add something - you did try with removing absurd damage reduction and adding target debuffs, but that was just a cookie for a hungry hobbit. How about CC/Support/Survivability combo? We do not need threat reduction for Yellow, thank you much, low damage is enough. We do not need more damage for Yellow *IF* and only if support component offers comparable potential to our group instead. But if we are to survive low damage, nerfed CC (bosses/Moors) and lack of grease from Red/Blue, we are going to need some upgrades:

    a. Mobility piece - many ways to do this, stealing some stuff from Blue or eg. adding Yellow - specific on-the-move/insta component to skills or even induction in general, or some better trap - related mobility reduction for your opponents
    b. Stealth piece - if there's to be some bonus from attacking from stealth, it should be here and here only, I wouldn't mind camo being reduced to "Cancelling Creep Trackers" in its vanilla mode either. Also, mobile camo - like above - here and here only.
    c. Melee piece - no reason to remove the idea that Hunter melee skills serve as utility - simply buff that utility for Yellow like Overpower does for Guards, add something that could be called support value while you're at it (eg. certain damage vulnerability)
    d. Traps again... yes, I know, this revamp suggestion is as overblown as they can get, but try seeing it as what Yellow could offer in general: bonuses that are significant for entire group, enough to justify clunky mechanics of Frikkin Trapper of Foes
    e. instaCC - can't believe I forgot about it - deep traiting Yellow, or even specific Yellow trait should also transform either DS or Bard's into Focus/free non-induction skill - if Explosive Arrow and DS duration legacy remain unchanged, it should probably be Bard's so DS does not become sort of a "derpshot penspam" equivalent for CC.
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Feb 28 2013 at 02:41 AM.

  23. #98
    I find it impossible to PvP on my Hunter for more than 10 minutes without rage quitting and returning to my Captain. I have several changes in mind which, if implemented, would make the Hunter playable again.

    Beneath Notice - a lifesaver in PvE but useless in PvP. Turn it into a skill to delay/counter focus fire since every class has one. When Beneath Notice is activated, you cannot be targeted by player characters for 10 seconds or until you attack, and it auto-crits the first attack you make. AoE damage does not pop you out of it.

    Desperate Flight - Turn it into a sprint

    Cry of the Hunter - shorten animation and increase bubble magnitude. It can even be one shotted by a War-leader. Also the slow removal might as well not exist without an additional 5 seconds of immunity.

    Agile Rejoinder - you never live long enough for the HoT to complete its full duration. Double the magnitude of each tick while halving the number of ticks.

    Camo - Auto-crits your first attack and provides movement for 5 - 10 seconds

    Snares - I feel like these should do 3 times as much damage

    Melee Skills - they have too long of an attack duration and animation. Scourging Blow and Swift Stroke should be instant skills and generate 1 focus each.

    Slows - non-curable

    Strength of the Earth - a 5 second root for a channeled power restore skill? The only other class that has to remain rooted while using their power restore is the Lore-master whose power restore is also a power drain. Why should I have to stand in place for 5 seconds doing nothing while champs, burgs, and RKs can restore more power while on the move?

    This thread is already full of great ideas for Fleetness, Press Onward, and Bow of the Righteous so I won't waste your time with those.
    Last edited by GeorgeBaggy; Feb 28 2013 at 05:48 AM.

  24. #99
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Also, thought I would throw something out here again (even though I've had my allotted 'three things' post), give us a reset skill cooldown button. Any kind of button. Something to reset the cooldown on intent concentration, dazing blow, distracting shot, cry of the hunter, press onward, possibly even focus pots. Or give us something to regen focus in combat easier than having to use induction skills, allow us to regain with melee skills or by eliminating focus loss on movement without improved fleetness up.

    The reason I bring this up, no buttons or cooldowns left is a killer in PvMP. We are literally the only class I know of (or have played) that has to blow EVERY cooldown we have just to fight a single mediocre creep 1v1. We should not have to use all our buttons to beat one creep who normally wouldn't even have to use one. I found myself running around in circles with a warg the other day because I had used up all my focus, put pots on cooldown, intent concentration on cooldown, and run out of capacity to get focus back at all without stopping to use inductions after fighting another creep right before the warg showed up and pounced me. I simply couldn't fight back at all against a melee-centralized class with no focus and no ability to gain it, and I just slowly died while trying to kite waiting on a button to come off cooldown. If I had attempted to melee at half morale he would have easily won, due to creeps' large morale pools and tactical hits that I can't b/p/e, and stopping to use inductions would have been pointless for the same reason.

    To clarify, this particular warg is one that I can easily kill solo but the fact that I had just come out of a fight with another creep and used all my cooldowns simply to win put me at such a disadvantage that I literally couldn't fight back. Fix this, we need a reset button or alternative way to gain focus because without it in PvMP we are dead. I understand that technically winning two fights back to back solo would be a bit wrong, but the point here is that we don't even have a fighting chance.
    Last edited by Kajil; Feb 27 2013 at 02:46 PM.
    [center]RIP Character signature generator, June 2013.[/center]
    [center]Theiol, Fervar, Turthonn, and Vanka, [i]retired LOTRO[/i]|Croue, Folter, [i]Rift - Shatterbone shard[/i][/center]

  25. #100

    My 2 cents-

    My 2 cents-

    I'm almost strictly PVP, so forgive me if I focus primarily on that... With that in mind, the three most obvious things that can use changing in my opinion are:

    1. Hunter Survivability- We need to be at least competitive with a creep if we get caught in the open field...(Low cut slow, with slow removal % chance as our old set bonus from the PVP armor was great...why did we lose that??) So many great ideas have already been presented in this thread Ill leave it to you to get it done. But it needs to happen. Fix the medium armor mits, do something with DF, increasse the CoTH bubble, make PO instacast usable on the move and in combat, or give us back our lowcut slow removal % chance, or something else, or all of the above!!

    2. Skills/traits/legendary skills/legacies- Not sure where to even start here...You have your work cut out for you, our skills, traits, and legacies are an absolute mess. So many are either completely useless(Yellow line anyone, Hunter's art...SMH), or laughingly redundant(Our legacies cost us twice as much as any other class due to their redundancy. Our crit legacies need to be consolidated!!)... Lots of other good suggestions have been made in this thread regarding this issue as well...Just clean it up please!!!!

    3. DPS/Threat management/BIG HITTER- OK Im not saying anything here that hasnt already been said. Getting into raids can be tough for a hunter. We have lost our identity, which was single target DPS king. We can still hit hard, but we are effictively driving around with a governer restricting us from putting the pedal down on the metal. Heartseeker is a joke at this point...It used to be my favorite attack...My BIG hitter!!! Creeps would fear the HS, and run for LoS if they saw crosshairs...(Now, I dont even bother using it unless I'm against a BA and he is using evade... They wont even try to LoS cause they are loling at my crosshairs and want to see if I will crit for more than 1/3 of their total health...which I won't.) Give us our Big hitter back!!!

    Ok thats threeish suggestions that I feel will help bring us back to the level of all the other classes...Thanks for this revamp, It is sorely needed!!!


    [I][I]And Saint Attila raised the Hand Grenade up on high, saying:[/I]
    [I][I]"O Lord, bless this thy Hand Grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."[/I][/I]


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