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  1. #1

    The interior of Barad Dur

    Tokien never really described what the inside of Barad'Dur looked like. He only described in detail of what it looked liked outside. This makes things concerning Barad Dur mysterious for me. I would love to know what it looked like in there. Maybe at the very top of the tower was Sauron's throne room or living courters, and at the base of the tower was where the army trained and lived. And of course the dungeons would be at the lower levels.

    I would also imagine if one of the Free Peoples went inside, they would surely experience massive dread. Which will be interesting to see if eventually Barad'Dur gets added to the game in a Mordor expansion pack or something. Maybe by that time, we will have better hope tokens that grant us huge amount of hope to counter the dread of Barad'dur.

    What are your thoughts on Barad'Dur?

  2. #2
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    My chief thought is that Turbine couldn't do justice to it and shouldn't try. People are always on about how huge they want Minas Tirith to be, and Barad-dûr must have been on the order of several times the size. If (as described) the Sammath Naur was level with the Window of the Eye and given that it was a long way up the side of Orodruin (which was roughly four and a half thousand feet high), then Barad-dûr must have been several thousand feet high itself (definitely well over three thousand feet, going by what Tolkien describes, perhaps as much as four thousand). As I said last time you brought this up, the place was impossibly huge and so of course the interior would be on a similarly impossible scale.

  3. #3
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    No one's ever survived to tell the tale...

  4. #4
    The door to Barad Dur is locked. Talk to Gandalf.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    My chief thought is that Turbine couldn't do justice to it and shouldn't try. People are always on about how huge they want Minas Tirith to be, and Barad-dûr must have been on the order of several times the size. If (as described) the Sammath Naur was level with the Window of the Eye and given that it was a long way up the side of Orodruin (which was roughly four and a half thousand feet high), then Barad-dûr must have been several thousand feet high itself (definitely well over three thousand feet, going by what Tolkien describes, perhaps as much as four thousand). As I said last time you brought this up, the place was impossibly huge and so of course the interior would be on a similarly impossible scale.
    So Barad Dur is 2-3 times the height of the Empire State Building (1454 feet)? Wow, I never realized that. Now I wish we knew more about the interior.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by danmax67 View Post
    So Barad Dur is 2-3 times the height of the Empire State Building (1454 feet)? Wow, I never realized that. Now I wish we knew more about the interior.
    What I was getting at was that the place was on such a gargantuan scale that it would defy any depiction other than the familiar one, of something vast and terrible being seen from a distance. It was never meant to be shown in close detail, what matters is the impression it gives as a statement of Sauron's power.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    My chief thought is that Turbine couldn't do justice to it and shouldn't try. People are always on about how huge they want Minas Tirith to be, and Barad-dûr must have been on the order of several times the size. If (as described) the Sammath Naur was level with the Window of the Eye and given that it was a long way up the side of Orodruin (which was roughly four and a half thousand feet high), then Barad-dûr must have been several thousand feet high itself (definitely well over three thousand feet, going by what Tolkien describes, perhaps as much as four thousand). As I said last time you brought this up, the place was impossibly huge and so of course the interior would be on a similarly impossible scale.
    My understanding was that it was built on top of a small mountain, which would account for most of the height.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    What I was getting at was that the place was on such a gargantuan scale that it would defy any depiction other than the familiar one, of something vast and terrible being seen from a distance. It was never meant to be shown in close detail, what matters is the impression it gives as a statement of Sauron's power.
    I agree, though I did like the little trolling by PJ in the Fellowship movie when Barad-dûr it shown for the first time; you get to see a fairly evil but unimpressive looking tower and assume it is Barad-dûr, very much downplayed. Until the camera starts zooming out and up, and the viewer realises it was only a gate-tower when the place itself is incredibly large. (was good riiiight up until the eye-tower)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarsontheSage View Post
    My understanding was that it was built on top of a small mountain, which would account for most of the height.
    It was built around 'a mighty mountain-throne', but it starts at the level of the plain and just keeps going up and up from there, presumably both built around and delving into the rock up to whatever height that reached, and then surmounting that whole vast edifice there was the tower in which there was the Window of the Eye.

    The whole thing's one vast fortress, it's not as if it was just one tower stuck on top of a mountain.

    '... wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.'

    - Frodo's vision from the Seat of Seeing, ' The Breaking of the Fellowship', FOTR

    '...towers and battlements, tall as cliffs, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits, great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant'

    - Sam's momentary glimpse of Barad-dûr before its fall, 'Mount Doom', ROTK

    Not to mention that the whole place was perpetually shrouded in shadow, with only brief glimpses being afforded. It seems Tolkien didn't even want to have to describe the whole thing: such a place is better imagined than described in any great detail, still less depicted. What matters is the impression of sheer scale and the implications for just how powerful Sauron was.

    It wouldn't be like getting into Isengard, which was dismissed as 'a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.'

    There surely must come a time when even Joe Gamer has to grow an imagination and think 'Okay, sounds a bit much' or something along those lines rather than jumping up and down excitedly and going on about raids and instances. (OP, I'm looking at you).

  10. #10
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    The descriptions of Barad-Dur everyone has said pretty much speak justice to it. If/when we eventually get to Mordor, I very much doubt we'd get into Barad-Dur. Cause once the ring is destroyed, Barad-Dur gets demolished (I'm sure not quite in the style of Peter Jackon's version, probably where the foundations were wrecked, and the Free Peoples destroyed the rest, like the survivors of the Last Alliance did before).
    Plus I very highly doubt we'd get in before the Ring is destroyed. Since you'd have the battle of the Black Gate and all that to deal with.

    And I for one would not want lotro to pull what LOTR: The Third Age did. The idea of fighting Sauron's eye on top of Barad-Dur was just ridiculous.

    In conclusion, would it be cool to see Lotro's version of Barad Dur in the future? Yes. Would I be disappointed if it didn't happen? no
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoyKashka View Post
    No one's ever survived to tell the tale...
    Gollum did...


    It's a game Rad - Turbine has an obligation to its players to provide us with an approximation of the iconic places and peoples of M-e - that's why we are here...

    If we don't get some play in or around Barad Dur - then we have been deceived - all of us. From Joe Gamer (who just wants to raid a cool evil tower) to Monkey McLorehead (who lives to poo-poo the artistic efforts of people who actually have talent and imagination) and all the people in between who support this game because they want to interact with the fantastic locations of a world that they could only read about.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    The descriptions of Barad-Dur everyone has said pretty much speak justice to it. If/when we eventually get to Mordor, I very much doubt we'd get into Barad-Dur. Cause once the ring is destroyed, Barad-Dur gets demolished (I'm sure not quite in the style of Peter Jackon's version, probably where the foundations were wrecked, and the Free Peoples destroyed the rest, like the survivors of the Last Alliance did before).
    Plus I very highly doubt we'd get in before the Ring is destroyed. Since you'd have the battle of the Black Gate and all that to deal with.
    Generally, if the foundations of a giant building are destroyed, it falls down. I rather doubt that there was anything left but rubble after the ring was destroyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarendele View Post
    It's a game Rad - Turbine has an obligation to its players to provide us with an approximation of the iconic places and peoples of M-e - that's why we are here...
    And they have. And they can give us an approximation of the iconic distant view of Barad-dûr, which is all that's described in the books and all we ever see of it in the movies, too.

    If we don't get some play in or around Barad Dur - then we have been deceived - all of us. From Joe Gamer (who just wants to raid a cool evil tower) to Monkey McLorehead (who lives to poo-poo the artistic efforts of people who actually have talent and imagination) and all the people in between who support this game because they want to interact with the fantastic locations of a world that they could only read about.
    Nobody would really be getting "Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron" that way because the place is simply too big, too 'epic', to realise in a game. I don't agree that anyone would have been deceived or cheated in any way if Barad-dûr featured as no more than the symbolic looming presence that it is in books and movies alike because that's the role it plays. It's a proxy for Sauron himself, whom we never see. If you were to feel deceived, then it would be because you'd deceived yourself to begin with. Nobody ever made you any such promise, and Turbine have no such obligation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarsontheSage View Post
    Generally, if the foundations of a giant building are destroyed, it falls down. I rather doubt that there was anything left but rubble after the ring was destroyed.
    Indeed. Barad-dûr's collapse was nothing short of apocalyptic:

    Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steam went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and in wild crest curled and came crashing down upon the land.

  15. #15
    Given the timeline I don't see our characters entering Barad Dur other than through a flash-back session play instance similar to the Moria intro.

    It would be interesting to see if Turbine spins the narrative in a way that has players session-play Gollum post torture and released from the Barad Dur.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It was built around 'a mighty mountain-throne', but it starts at the level of the plain and just keeps going up and up from there . . .
    Why did you use the word "around"?

    Anyway, if the topo map of Mordor in RotK can be trusted, it really does look like Barad-dur is built on a spur of the Ered Lithui. There's no interval given, and I'm not sure it's safe to assume it's rendered with complete accuracy. But my guess is the contour lines are something like thousand foot intervals*, putting the foot of the Dark Tower on some sort of tall base. Really it looks more like two contour lines if not three.

    There is also the Tolkien drawing "Barad-dur" which shows the tower what looks like the edge of a cliff.

    *Unfortunately Orodruin itself is very blurry on my copy, which would be the best way I can think of to judge it with certainty. But anything much less doesn't seem to do Cirith Ungol or Mindolluin justice, both of which have relatively clear contouring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG View Post
    Why did you use the word "around"?
    Because if the fortress gates are on the plain and there's stuff below the 'mountain-throne' bit then it's obviously not just built on top of it. It's not just a tower, but a whole bunch of other stuff as well, those 'great courts' and so on that are mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodgoing View Post
    Tokien never really described what the inside of Barad'Dur looked like. He only described in detail of what it looked liked outside. This makes things concerning Barad Dur mysterious for me. I would love to know what it looked like in there. Maybe at the very top of the tower was Sauron's throne room or living courters, and at the base of the tower was where the army trained and lived. And of course the dungeons would be at the lower levels.

    I would also imagine if one of the Free Peoples went inside, they would surely experience massive dread. Which will be interesting to see if eventually Barad'Dur gets added to the game in a Mordor expansion pack or something. Maybe by that time, we will have better hope tokens that grant us huge amount of hope to counter the dread of Barad'dur.

    What are your thoughts on Barad'Dur?
    That would indeed be very interesting. It could be done as an epic in the style of the Isengard epic. We are captured and flown there to be interrogated. Getting out would be tricky. We most likely would have to obtain Orc gear (as Sam and Frodo did) to disguise ourselves. The size thing would make no difference as Isengard was a very large instance. There would be no need to explore every nook and cranny of the place. Just the parts that were relevant to the instance need be constructed. Other areas can be blocked from access by massive trolls (or the like) and appear as just doorways or gates. The road back, once outside the city could be fascinating as well. Would we go past Shelob’s Lair or would we go through the main gate? Of course, the parts of Mordor that we need to travel through would need to be constructed. A narrow strip of land would be enough until we reach the gate or the lair. We might even march in the same company as Frodo and Samwise, recognizing them/or not, but unable to directly help their escape. I would like to see such an instance.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CarsontheSage View Post
    My understanding was that it was built on top of a small mountain, which would account for most of the height.
    YOur quote put me in mind of a book I read many years ago called the Belgariad, where there was in essence a city built on top of a mountain... The description in that particular book now I come to think is very reminiscent of Barad Dur

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    My chief thought is that Turbine couldn't do justice to it and shouldn't try. People are always on about how huge they want Minas Tirith to be, and Barad-dûr must have been on the order of several times the size. If (as described) the Sammath Naur was level with the Window of the Eye and given that it was a long way up the side of Orodruin (which was roughly four and a half thousand feet high), then Barad-dûr must have been several thousand feet high itself (definitely well over three thousand feet, going by what Tolkien describes, perhaps as much as four thousand). As I said last time you brought this up, the place was impossibly huge and so of course the interior would be on a similarly impossible scale.
    In regards to the height of the 'Window of the Eye' - I once theorised it would be level with the Sammath Naur but that was just me speculating. Is there any text which supports this idea?

    As for the interior of the fortress - I'd imagine it'd be more of the same that we've seen in other evil strongholds. Dark, lit by torches on the walls, grimy in places etc. I don't see why there would be anything special about the place.

    I don't think Turbine would be able to do it justice. They would probably have to section it off into many 'instances' and that would drastically reduce the experience of the place. The reason Minas Tirith could be done without instances is it's all out in the open (except the individual buildings).

    Besides which the only two ways I can think of that we could see the inside of Barad-dur (or Mordor, for that matter) are either in session play or as prisoners who could be taken there, questioned, and then perhaps moved to somewhere like Minas Morgul (and then escaping from there in some way).
    Last edited by Beleg-Of-Doriath; Mar 17 2013 at 11:51 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath View Post
    In regards to the height of the 'Window of the Eye' - I once theorised it would be level with the Sammath Naur but that was just me speculating. Is there any text which supports this idea?
    '...a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron's shadow-mantled fortress.'

    - 'Mount Doom', ROTK

    (Best to read the whole passage to get the context)

    As for the interior of the fortress - I'd imagine it'd be more of the same that we've seen in other evil strongholds. Dark, lit by torches on the walls, grimy in places etc. I don't see why there would be anything special about the place.
    Its sheer scale and dreadfulness would put it in a league all its own. I don't recall anywhere else being said to be perpetually shrouded in shadow, either.

    Besides which the only two ways I can think of that we could see the inside of Barad-dur (or Mordor, for that matter) are either in session play or as prisoners who could be taken there, questioned, and then perhaps moved to somewhere like Minas Morgul (and then escaping from there in some way).
    Session play would certainly be a way to show a limited (and hence doable) bit of Barad-dûr but why would prisoners be moved from there to Minas Morgul?

 

 

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