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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Proven
    Is Runesi in the council? Dang.
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  2. #602
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    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.
    The emphasis so far seems to be on the fact that there is someone on the Player Council who is a rank farmer. On the other side of that coin there is someone like myself. I have played my warg since the game launched, more than six years now. In that time I have never fight clubbed or exploited any system to advance my warg faster than was intended. I have played through the times when a creep getting a solo kill was as common as rocking horse &&&&. I played through the times when a raid kill gave you 3 infamy and a broken button if you were lucky. I played when rank 5 was considered a high rank and took months to achieve. Others may have ranked faster than me, but every last point of infamy my warg has was earned.
    Last edited by MrWarg; Jun 20 2013 at 11:22 AM.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.
    who would vote for punishing himself?

    @ grimm, im sure there are alot of nice and good guys on this council.. however the sole fact that they invite an "exploiter" to use their own Developers terms for this rankfarming issue,into such a council shows that the issue itself is of no concern to them. And any other comment they make is purely a Lie and excuse. as i have said,there is cases without any risk of "false positive" wich they could act on right away,they do not. case closed.

    You cant go and put a criminal that is involved into the crime at hand into a jury for a trial for that crime commited.. That should be quite obvious.
    (its the best example i can come up with atm,not like those people are criminals or anything ^^)
    Last edited by Okni; Jun 20 2013 at 11:33 AM.

  5. #605


    Seriously? A rank farmer made it to the PC?
    Very good vetting indeed.
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  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okni View Post

    @ grimm, im sure there are alot of nice and good guys on this council.. however the sole fact that they invite an "exploiter" to use their own Developers terms for this rankfarming issue,into such a council shows that the issue itself is of no concern to them. And any other comment they make is purely a Lie and excuse. as i have said,there is cases without any risk of "false positive" wich they could act on right away,they do not. case closed.
    My point was that just because the emphasis is on there being a rank farmer on the Player Council doesn't mean to say that alternative experiences are not being represented. If you want to consider an issue properly then it makes sense to consider all points of view, including those that you disagree with. Just because you consider a conflicting viewpoint doesn't mean that you have to give up your own, rather it allows you to put your own arguments and views into a firmer context and gain a sense of perspective on the wider issue.

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    My point was that just because the emphasis is on there being a rank farmer on the Player Council doesn't mean to say that alternative experiences are not being represented. If you want to consider an issue properly then it makes sense to consider all points of view, including those that you disagree with. Just because you consider a conflicting viewpoint doesn't mean that you have to give up your own, rather it allows you to put your own arguments and views into a firmer context and gain a sense of perspective on the wider issue.

    Oh no,i never meant to say that.
    My point was simply that turbine is not really considering this as an issue,unlike they stated previously,wich gets shown time and time again if you look at the history since Sapience answered in my @Sapience thread for example

    Also whats up with the "avoid false positives".. admitted/known rankfarmers and clear cases arent beeing dealt with either.(PC member admitted to be rankfarmer,another guy makes r0 to r15 in 6/7 days,grimm,can you as a player tell me that is not a 100% clear case of rankfarming? or anyone on the council/turbine staff for that matter ^^ if they play their game they KNOW that is NOT possible w/o exploiting that system,since its around 700k a day,way above "top tier pvmp players",yet they tell me : sorry we cant do anything,could be false positive.. lol i dont buy that anymore,sorry..)

    No one asks for questionable mass bans or anything like that *heck,id rather have a few questionable cases of farmers not banned instead of 1 guy falsely banned*,but it would go a long way if the clear cases would be dealt with to show that those arent just empty words.
    Last edited by Okni; Jun 20 2013 at 12:40 PM.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okni View Post
    Also whats up with the "avoid false positives".. admitted/known rankfarmers and clear cases arent beeing dealt with either .... another guy makes r0 to r15 in 6/7 days,grimm,can you as a player tell me that is not a 100% clear case of rankfarming?
    As a player I know that going from r0 to r15 within a week or less under the current PvMP system is only possible using one method: rank farming. Even if I were to start a brand new creep at the stroke of midnight on the Monday it would be next to impossible for me to reach rank 15 by the stroke of midnight on the Sunday without rank farming.

    The thing is not every case is so clear cut as Sapience mentioned in the Twenty Questions thread. That raises an important question: does Turbine just focus on the most obvious rank farmers or does Turbine try to come up with a means of addressing rank farming as a whole? I think it is easy for us as players to say that Turbine should do X, Y and Z because it seems so obvious or straightforward or strikes us as just common sense. However, we do need to take account of the bigger picture and look at how taking the 'obvious approach' or implementing a 'common sense solution' will actually work out in the grand scheme of things and whether it will actually address the underlying problem or whether it simply looks good, but does little in practice.
    Last edited by MrWarg; Jun 20 2013 at 01:18 PM.

  9. #609
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    Doing both is too much work? They can take action against obvious cases while working on a solution for not so obvious cases and the overall problem after all.. Instead of hoping people wait for them to figure out a cheap way of handling this someday..
    Hate to say it but the same game run by another publisher already had a way to deal with it,not perfect,but they did something against it wich this company is lacking totally..TB should have more money/tools at their disposal too..

    And i am willing to bet if they would take care of all the known rankfarmers right now(and those clear cases we spoke about,and the ones where proof is crushing evidence for guilt),that would already be a fairly big amount of the overall number of farmers,and scare off anyone from keeping happily exploiting that system. And the cases where things arent so obvious get a more in depth investigation with results to come. Cant harm anyone can it? No one asks for a massive automated ban based on some numbers/reports..

    But nah,my guess is they want a script that catches rankfarmers based on some Numbers... And ofc that takes ages to get to work w/o too many false positive reports...

    Anyway,enough time spent on discussing topics i know nothing about :3 best of luck to you and the PC ^.^

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    My point was that just because the emphasis is on there being a rank farmer on the Player Council doesn't mean to say that alternative experiences are not being represented. If you want to consider an issue properly then it makes sense to consider all points of view, including those that you disagree with. Just because you consider a conflicting viewpoint doesn't mean that you have to give up your own, rather it allows you to put your own arguments and views into a firmer context and gain a sense of perspective on the wider issue.
    So, what you are implying, is that it's good to have a rank farmer in the PC to address issues? So what if an American that caused a huge shooting like we've all heard lately* gets into the House of Representatives to have some input into a possible new weapon-law? Isn't this exactly the same, and in our society we wouldn't accept this, and we should in my opinion not accept this as LotRO community either.

    Because Player Council people had to be matching with criteria, so that means they must represent the community as a whole. If we have a rank farmer in the Council, then we get represented by someone who is totally ignoring our system of pvping.

    The issue is at the system, make it more easy to gain renown and people will take advantage of it. Why don't we get such ''Diminishing Returns'' anymore? Getting 20 renown / infamy for a kill after some 1v1 fights, and probably clubbing.

    Don't we all remember Farmpaws/Turksrudey? He beat the system before it became so incredibly easy, but also got away with it. He is the first ones to have clubbed all the way up on his warg, not sure what happened to him now though. However, my point is with this guy, he is an example of the Diminishing Returns-clubber, and one of the only. Obviously, the situation has been deteriorated to a point where we had to make a topic about it to show our hatred against these people.

    * I feel terribly sorry if I have hurt anyone with this comment. I feel sorry in general for such events that are shown on the news.
    Last edited by Tolgaring; Jun 20 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.
    Wow, they are pretty out of touch. I've been away for a bit on skyrim and some old stuff so It's good to see you're still fighting the good fight.

    To me that is like a principle inviting a person who cheats on their test and a person that studies for it together so that the principle can decide which policy to enforce. Some things in life are just self evident, they don't need a committee to determine right from wrong.
    Last edited by Armitas; Jun 20 2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolgarinquote
    So, what you are implying, is that it's good to have a rank farmer in the PC to address issues?
    I am quite clearly stating that if one wishes to look at an issue in its entirety then one has to consider all viewpoints, and yes that does include opposing viewpoints. I may not agree with, or even like, someone else's opinion on a given issue, but by at least listening to what they have to say I can perhaps gain a better understanding of the issue as a whole.

    As for your analogy it is frankly ridiculous mate. We are discussing a game here, not gun laws. I dislike the tendency on these forums to bring up an analogy every time an issue is discussed. I prefer to discuss the actual issue and not analogies, similes or metaphors. I am sorry if this sounds curt and I really don't mean to have a pop at you, more that I want to explain why I don't bother with these analogies.

    Because Player Council people had to be matching with criteria, so that means they must represent the community as a whole. If we have a rank farmer in the Council, then we get represented by someone who is totally ignoring our system of pvping.
    ... and then there is myself who is opposed to rank farming.
    Last edited by MrWarg; Jun 20 2013 at 06:36 PM.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    I am quite clearly stating that if one wishes to look at an issue in its entirety then one has to consider all viewpoints, and yes that does include opposing viewpoints. I may not agree with, or even like, someone else's opinion on a given issue, but by at least listening to what they have to say I can perhaps gain a better understanding of the issue as a whole.
    Yet, what you might not see is that if you think / see it from another view, you are vouching for a rank farmer in the PC. Can't you contact a well known farmer rather than a representative?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    As for your analogy it is frankly ridiculous mate. We are discussing a game here, not gun laws. I dislike the tendency on these forums to bring up an analogy every time an issue is discussed. I prefer to discuss the actual issue and not analogies, similes or metaphors. I am sorry if this sounds curt and I really don't mean to have a pop at you, more that I want to explain why I don't bother with these analogies.
    I am not offended in any way, but I used my analogy because in my opinion it strengthens my arguments. Remember that we had a discussion about rank farmers acting in real life, around 5 pages ago? People in a game usually act and think similar in real life, so if you think the urge of an issue is not that bad, you can compare it to a situation in real life, so one can show what the urge actually is:

    1) There is a person who has broken the rules
    2) Who is representing a state/a whole country
    3) And has input on a discussion that CAN benefit him

    So why should we accept something like that, if it was real we wouldn't either. That is my whole point.

    I'm not going in full detail why one would use an analogy but I suppose this does suffice.
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  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolgaring View Post
    Yet, what you might not see is that if you think / see it from another view, you are vouching for a rank farmer in the PC. Can't you contact a well known farmer rather than a representative?
    Who is on the Player Council isn't up to me mate and I do not pretend to speak or vouch for anyone other than myself. Turbine chose who they chose based on whatever criteria they thought best. Presumably they wanted as wide a range of opinion on various issues as possible.
    Last edited by MrWarg; Jun 20 2013 at 08:54 PM.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.
    That is very disturbing to hear. :-/ It's like putting criminals on the jury.

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    That is very disturbing to hear. :-/ It's like putting criminals on the jury.
    Yeah one hand it is bad. On the other hand, it might help them to know they have rank farmers on the PC. They can analyse their stats to help them devise more fool-proof methods of singling out farmers from people who simply rank very quickly, and avoid people being banned inappropriately.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    They can analyse their stats to help them devise more fool-proof methods of singling out farmers from people who simply rank very quickly, and avoid people being banned inappropriately.
    Yes, they'll use their monetary resources for that.


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  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Yes, they'll use their monetary resources for that.
    You don't really need many monetary resources to stare at numbers and figure out how to know the normal ones from the strange ones.

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    You don't really need many monetary resources to stare at numbers and figure out how to know the normal ones from the strange ones.
    You'd need to pay someone to do it.
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  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    You'd need to pay someone to do it.
    Pay someone to do their job, you mean.

    I think that Turbine will do it. But I think they'll do it lazily and wrong.

  21. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Clubbing is an insult to the PVMP community and to those who work for their ranks.

    Clubbing was punishable under Codemasters by a complete removal of all ranks from a character after a GM investigation into it.
    /signed

    Agree with Squelcher. We also had and i believe still have problem with clubbers on Withywindle. Not so big as it used to be before but still. We trying fraps any clubbers during their clubbing. We have one guy who was clubbing almost on all his characters and even that people on our server know his name, and some of us were talking to GMs about it and asked them to do investogation ... nothing happened.
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  22. #622


    Another clubber on gilrain, the whole kin does it and so do many others, although many do what i call tactical clubbing, they club enough to get reknown without it looking like they have clubbed, if that makes sense.
    These actions need looking into with bans, stripping of rank across all alts etc. (ye, like that will happen ever)
    As has already been posted, it smacks veterans in the face after they work years for their rank and deserve it, yet people can come along, and particulary on gilrain, achieve 100+ plus rekown if they wanted to.

  23. #623
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    lol at comparing LOTRO rank farming to criminal activity.
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  24. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher
    Clubbing is an insult to the PVMP community and to those who work for their ranks.

    Clubbing was punishable under Codemasters by a complete removal of all ranks from a character after a GM investigation into it.
    /signed

    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher
    They said that they are aware that known rank farmers are on the Player Council and that in order to discuss it they need people from both sides, including farmers themselves.
    Great news, but: I'm not even surprised. Just fits perfectly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffor
    lol at comparing LOTRO rank farming to criminal activity.
    Both is violation of rules, so yeah: cheating is like "criminal activiy" - or why do you think, this issue is prosecuted heavily in other MMOs/games?

  25. #625
    For something to be a crime it has to be against the law doesn't it?

    If its not against the rules or any kind of agreement then isn't it just a freedom of choice?

    Way to blow things out of proportion!

 

 
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