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  1. #1

    Justice virtue - why the hate?

    There was a "discussion" on Arkenstone GLFF today about the relative value of Justice vs. any other virtue with mitigations. Given that I don't raid, and most of my alts were max level before the Great Virtue Change a few months back, I wanted to know why mits were better than ICMR. I got nothing useful from the WoW Clowns and lolmonkeys.

    The best argument I heard was that mits prevent more damage than ICMR could ever replace, but I couldn't get any justification for that (mathematically or even logically anecdotal).

    Could someone please explain calmly, clearly, and briefly why mits are better than ICMR and how much mit it would take to override Justice at 16?

    It is NOT self-evident why Justice is a bad virtue.
    Last edited by Nikyu500; Feb 01 2013 at 06:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Here's the gist of the argument against Justice - in general. ICMR was made much less significant to the game by the drastic increase to healing that occurred with the release of ROI - mainly RK healing boost. So, during a raid, mit's give you a direct reduction of damage taken (requiring you to be healed less often), while ICMR gives you a small portion of morale back (this is slow and a relatively small value). Basically, mit's allow your healer to do smaller group heals for non-tanks, increasing their overall effectiveness in prolonged fights. ICMR gives you a small amount of morale back, so little it has basically no effect on healer's need to heal/not heal you. This is a simplification, of course, but it's the gist.

    The value with which mit's override ICMR is a hard number to pin down. Lots of variables in the equation - lvl, mit value, vit value, your incoming healing %, etc.

  3. #3
    Thank you for your polite response. Some questions...

    1. Is the amount of damage saved by mits so much better than ICMR that it's not even an issue? I guess I'm not factoring in how much damage an enemy NPC can dish out. If the max phys mit is 70%, then if an enemy at lvl 85 hits for 1,000, is that reduced to 300? But if Justice replaces 120 morale EVERY second, and I'm only getting hit at <insert some percentage of 1,000 morale> every ten seconds, due to fears, piercing cry stun, etc., then what am I not considering?

    2. Your response focused on raids. What about a soloer?

  4. #4
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    OK, ICMR gives morale per minute right. In addition to fluffing up your health a bit, rank 16 justice heals you for 120 health per minute. This is not modified by incoming healing.

    Looking at innocence for an example of a mit vitue: Innocence gives 864 physical mitigation and some tact mit and resist too. Just doing a quick-and-dirty look at how much 800 something phys mit buffs my LM for, I took off an item that gives me a total of 837 physical mitigation. With the item, his phys mit is 34.4% and without it's 32.3%

    So a decrease in my physical mitigation from 34.4%->32.3% means I take 3.2% more common damage. Yes 3.2% more damage and not 2.1%, because (1-.323)/(1-.344)=1.032.

    How much common damage does it take to make putting on 837 more phys mit better than 120 ICMR for my LM in his current build? If Ulxart received 3750 common damage in a minute with his phys mit at 34.4%, he'd take like 120 more damage per minute if he had 32.3% phys mit instead. Any more common damage and phys mit saves you more health than 120 ICMR. That's a really low threshold of damage, man, even for a non-tank. It's a threshold specific to my LM but you know other folk's are gonna be in the ballpark. Having defined that threshold, I can now make the qualitative argument that the threshold where ICMR heals more damage than that bit of mit prevents is for damage so trivial that it doesn't even matter.

    Concluding, the popular Innocence 16 gives 864 phys mit, 216 tact mit, and some resistance as lagniappe. In circumstances where you're actually taking common damage like 3man/6man trashpulls, against Durchest and the Black (as opposed to Shadow/Lightning/Fire) Armours in BG, etc., yes that will most likely prevent more damage than a piddly 120 ICMR will heal.

    Now I think that answers your question about mit vs ICMR. Now, Justice has max morale too which can add a whole 'nother layer to the comparison, one that I feel requires breaking down by situation. Max morale + ICPR vs Mits against "sustained" damage and also against "burst" damage. It's someone else's turn to analyze though.

  5. #5
    Argendauss, you were the first person to point out that ICMR was per MINUTE, not per second, which took me all of 5 seconds to verify via a Google search, so I feel a little stupid defending Justice now

    I still take issue with the people on Arkenstone assuming that everyone raids, so everyone must have mits (especially tac mits), or they are "noobz."

    But I will be waving Justice bye-bye in the near future.

    I thank both respondents for helping me see the light

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikyu500 View Post
    Argendauss, you were the first person to point out that ICMR was per MINUTE, not per second, which took me all of 5 seconds to verify via a Google search, so I feel a little stupid defending Justice now

    I still take issue with the people on Arkenstone assuming that everyone raids, so everyone must have mits (especially tac mits), or they are "noobz."

    But I will be waving Justice bye-bye in the near future.

    I thank both respondents for helping me see the light
    Glad to be of help. Not meaning to rub salt anywhere, but the information is also on your character page in game, ICMR/ICPR tooltips.

    As I do group content almost exclusively, I personally revile ICMR when it takes the place of another stat (like warden jav legacy, virtues, relics, fate as it is on live). But I will concede that it's probably more useful in solo situations. Also, I never turn it down when it doesn't cost me anything, e.g. the unlegacied ICMR tied to Determination stance for Warden, the ICMR on one of those Minstrel anthems, etc.

    The Arkenstone peeps probably got out of hand, I reckon. But then they don't exactly have the best medium with GLFF to lay out structured arguments--a weak excuse to be sure.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Feb 02 2013 at 03:11 PM.

 

 

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