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  1. #1
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    Producers Letter Jan 31 2013 Concerns for LMs

    In the producer's letter today they said
    Class Adjustments – Later in the year, we will be making some significant changes to the skills and traits of the Free Peoples classes. We’ll be pruning out skills that just feel disappointing in play and increasing the potency of others. The end result will be fewer skills, but a more profound impact on moment-to-moment play. How you choose to specialize your class will make a real difference!
    I don't know about the rest of you but ever since the last Class Adjustments they did back with Isengard I've felt there is barely any more pruning that can be done for LM skills... about the only thing left to prune/merge is our Signs of Protection and Signs of Power. Everything else is as compact as it can get while still giving us skill diversity and multiple roles and playing styles... There isn't a single skill on our bar that I don't use at least once while running in a group.

    What really needs to be done for us LMs is to deal with our pets that are near worthless and barely scale at all. The Raven Tact Mit and the Eagle ICPR have never scaled up as we have leveled. Pet dps and skill dps is still a joke compared to how it felt back when we were level 50 in the SoA days. Each pet as its specific points Bear to tank, pull agro and decrease armour. Raven to boost our fire damage, flanks and decrease tact damage to us. Lynx for single target stealth dps. Sabercat for frontal aoe damage. Bog lurker for ranged dps/root/flanks. Eagle for Flanks, interrupts, icpr and a last second self resurrection. Spirit for a controlled flank and healing. Yet these roles with the exception of the spirit are barely used because the pets are so weak. Then there is the fact that our inductions are amongst the longest in the game and we only have all of two offensive skills that we can do on the move compared to most classes that have high diversity with their skills on the move vs inductions.

    The only class traits that still feel like they need some work to me are the Blue line for people that want to focus on their pets.

  2. #2
    Deleted.....posted in the wrong topic
    Last edited by Aethelwald; Jan 31 2013 at 03:51 PM.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKCrichton View Post
    There isn't a single skill on our bar that I don't use at least once while running in a group.
    Inner flame?

    However, like you said, pets and the entire blue line need revamping. With red and yellow lines, I am overall quite content with where they are.
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  4. #4
    I really see nothing that needs to be changed with the class as it is, In my eyes there is nothing else that I want/need on my LM to be successful at what I need to do whether it be dps or debuff.

    If LM's had inductions on the run or no inductions at all we would become very very strong IMO and I don't want to play a godmode class.
    [I][b][center][color=red]Overlord Gothnon [/color][/center][/b][/I] [I][b][center][color=yellow]Brandywine[/color][/center][/b][/I]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKCrichton View Post
    Bog lurker for ranged dps/root/flanks.
    bog lurker can't root.

    But I had same thoughts, what they want reduce by a lm. And I hope that nothing. They can modify some our skill and pets, but I don't want to lose single of them.
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    Eglish isn't my first language, sorry for mistakes

  6. #6
    Heck....I will settle for Wind-Lore properly functioning again.

    As far as the OP quote....just because they are doing this in general does not mean they are going to re-vamp or deeply re-vamp all classes. They may just do a couple tweaks for LM.

    I agree though I pretty much use everything...as it is now I would hate for any of my skills to be taken away......I could think of a couple I would like tweaked however
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  7. #7
    Airlore and Inner Flame could need a look. Now with Hytbold Animalfriendset I don't use Airlore/imp Flanking most of the time.

    Ancient Master could need a look too. The line is in a good place, BUT the traitset bonuses are a little weak. Ancient Master has a huge overweight on the capstone Force of Will. There are a few really good traits and some placefillertraits to reach the capstone...
    MoNF without Capstone does still do noticable more damage than any other lines, but AM without capstone doesn't really debuff noticable better.

    And pets of course need to be looked at.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by schizoid19 View Post
    Inner flame?

    However, like you said, pets and the entire blue line need revamping. With red and yellow lines, I am overall quite content with where they are.
    I'm only unhappy with one yellow trait.

    I'm happy with the yellow line trait except for the Fire-lore trait, make it worthwhile traiting by increase the melee damage reduction by -5% everytime you trait so this makes a total of -35% (traited).

    Maybe make it -5% melee damage and +5% miss chance. (Or if the devs are kind enough to make it -10% melee damage then I have nothing complain :P)
    Banoon LM
    Here WL (my r5 ranking blow is a DG quest muahahaha)

  9. #9
    Personally, this quote the OP put forth fills me with more dread than a Balrog does. This is corporate talk for:

    "We're trying to go after the GW2 model of 10 skills by collapsing tons of unique skills that require *gasp* memorization and thinking into one button you push that does something similar. A few lazy, not-so-bright squeaky wheels complained about having to actually read the tool-tips for multiple skills, so instead of encouraging them to learn the nuances and ins-n-outs of their class, we're just going to take away all of that hard stuff. All of you long time as well as new players who actually like having such diversity of skills can just deal with it. Corporate says its the way new MMOs work, forget the unique stuff that brought you to this game."

    I really do feel sorry for some of the devs out there who were/are hardcore gamers who in their hearts-of-hearts probably don't like the direction this game is taking, but can't do anything about it because of some higher-ups who, after this game fails, will move onto some other big-time job (probably not even in the gaming industry). I hold no grudge against Turbine or most of the wonderful devs we have there who are just trying to hang on to their jobs, especially after the big post RoR layoff.

    Here are the changes that I personally fear are on the horizon, at least the first few (note: pure speculation, or rather educated guesses made based on every update since Bugs Bunny and the gang at WB came along):

    - All debuffing "Lore" skills will be collapsed into one [because why are we expected to have to learn the difference between melee, ranged, and tactical damage?]. Maybe even throw Ancient Craft into it too.
    - SoP:R (stun immunity) and SoP:V (stealth detection) being made into one skill
    - Putting Warding Lore and Sticky tar together [sticky lore?].
    - Test of Will, LotRD, and Storm-lore into one [because why should we have three stuns at our finger tips when one works marginally better than the other in certain circumstances, and three is, like, so confusing?]
    - Eliminate Inner Flame because we have Water-lore, then forget that we only get WL at level 77, leaving lower level players without some kind of reliable heal. Of course that would be "fixed" by:
    - Eliminate flanking and just put the current effects on the skills at all times [because no one seriously wants to have to watch and observe the state of their enemy, they just want to exPLODE the sticky gourd].
    - Get rid of the bog guardian instead of improving it [because it's gross and people don't use it, so why not save some trouble and throw it out?] Keep the sabre-cat though, cuz it looks super 1337!!!
    - Give each pet only one skill that does what all of the current ones do [again, because three is totally too big for today's gamers].

    Here's desperately hoping that I'm wrong with all of these.
    Last edited by Goatgullad; Feb 03 2013 at 01:47 AM.
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  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Agree with most of your post except:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatgullad View Post
    "We're trying to go after the GW2 model of 10 skills
    As a person with 5 tunes in GW2, this is in no way accurate. Your 10 skills change if you swap weapons. My gaurdian can equip:

    2H
    Greatsword
    Staff

    MH
    Sword
    Club
    Mace
    Torch

    Offhand
    Focus
    Torch
    Shield

    If I remember the list right. Each weapon combination creates different effects and skills, so you have something on the order of 60 available skills with these weapons in different combinations, not counting the utility skills from six to 9 and the legendary at 0 (of which I currently have a choice of five). Also, he can be a mitigation tank, heal tank, melee dps, range dps, healer, or debuffer/buffer depending on the combination and traits.

    Funny, that letter (and the changes announced with U10) made me more eager to get back to GW2 than grinding the same five dailies for 75ish days on my warden and LM.
    Last edited by Darlgon; Feb 03 2013 at 09:05 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatgullad View Post
    snip
    You're reaching terribly hard there bub, and only off a short sentence or two.

    Far as I'm concerned, the Devs have always done good by the LM, and as such I'm not too worried about what they will do with it.

    Needless to say most of your 'theories' are utter tripe.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  12. #12
    One of the things which has kept the Loremaster one of my favorite classes to play is the slew of jobs we fill. Even though we don't have nearly have as much to do now as we did in, say, The Rift or Moria, there's still lots of things we can do. I really hope they don't prune our skills too much, like they did removing the wound/disease resistance on our cures. Sometimes, it's the small things which make a skill satisfying to use.

    I would be interested in seeing further development into 'specializations' based on our trait setups though. One of the things I enjoy about the LM is how often I need to swap traits around depending on which instance I'm running.
    Last edited by Geno-Max; Feb 03 2013 at 10:28 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatgullad View Post
    - Eliminate Inner Flame because we have Water-lore, then forget that we only get WL at level 77, leaving lower level players without some kind of reliable heal. Of course that would be "fixed" by:
    - Eliminate flanking and just put the current effects on the skills at all times [because no one seriously wants to have to watch and observe the state of their enemy, they just want to exPLODE the sticky gourd].
    While Inner Flame could use some work, I don't think throwing it out is the way to go, especially if throwing out flanking is the way to remedy it. If the skills just had the flanking mechanics thrown in on top, Improved Staff Sweep would be too overpowered, and, since Improved Wizard's Fire doesn't have a cooldown, we would become better soloers than Wardens. All we would have to do is run around anything spamming Wizard's Fire and we would never die.

    Plus, paying attention to the state of the enemy is a big part of being an LM. That's why I love the lore-master, because we are a very tactical class.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Palken View Post
    While Inner Flame could use some work, I don't think throwing it out is the way to go, especially if throwing out flanking is the way to remedy it. If the skills just had the flanking mechanics thrown in on top, Improved Staff Sweep would be too overpowered, and, since Improved Wizard's Fire doesn't have a cooldown, we would become better soloers than Wardens. All we would have to do is run around anything spamming Wizard's Fire and we would never die.

    Plus, paying attention to the state of the enemy is a big part of being an LM. That's why I love the lore-master, because we are a very tactical class.
    I agree that the LM is in an excellent state right now. And I love paying attention to the enemy. But I really hope that you didn't think that what I was saying were suggestions; rather they are the worst-case scenario for what I project might happen to our beloved class.

    And I truly apologize that I was getting too down on GW2; I suppose I was more afraid of the "no traditional role," fast combat, and tons of auto-bestowal quests approach they have taken (which is great because it's their personal flair and uniqueness) being imposed on our game. It's a different game from Lotro, and I myself have been wondering if I should make it my new MMO home, but Lotro is still in good enough shape (for now) that I'm sticking with it.

    And Nyrion, I totally agree that most of my 'theories' are rubbish (by the way, 'theories' are technically backed up by evidence, so thanks for at least supporting their legitimacy; 'hypotheses' are unsupported speculation, but I digress). But when the terms "significant changes" and "lots of ground work" and "profound impact" are thrown around, especially because they haven't been used much before, I do fear that they are going to dumb-down every class in some way or another. Here's what I mean: in the last year or so (please correct me if I'm wrong), only 3 skills have been "pruned" from the LM, namely by combining wound and disease removal into one and collapsing the original three types of warding lore. I still miss my green and purple circles. Now when I hear "significant," I only think "uh oh, it's going to be like warding lore but for all of our skills." Sometimes I feel that the smartest thing to do is overreact, because it will rarely leave one surprised in the bad way when these changes do come.
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  15. #15
    My bad Goat, I seemed to have misread that. I apologize. In that case, I agree with your point

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_anthony View Post
    this is a hugely worrying issue.

    i think the best thing we can do to head it off is to speak loudly and repeatedly (forum threads, dev chats, setting down markers on Palantir and Bullroarer, for those who are on those test servers) about not wanting the LM class dumbed down, whatever else they might end up doing with other classes. changing other classes is fine -- in fact, a lot of the complaining on those other class forums would be addressed by the proposed prune-jobs -- but the LM is different. LMs like where the class currently is, don't whine nearly as much as any other class on their forums, and would find it utterly loathsome if the diversity of our class skills, which make this class singularly interesting for us, were eliminated. we are in good shape and want to keep it that way.

    the LM has always been unique -- GOOD unique -- in its complexity and hybrid nature. doing away with that will utterly gut the primary thing that makes the class interesting. personally, the only reason i am hanging on by a fingernail to this game that has made so many poor design choices in the last few years is because of the LM class. if they eliminate that uniqueness by pruning and simplifying LM skills, there truly is nothing left of note in this once-interesting game....

    this false confidence is not warranted. the producer's letter is pretty clear, and indicates a significant likelihood that the exact worries expressed by others in this thread will come to pass.

    IOW, prepare to eat your words in a couple months. and if it turns out you're wrong, will you return into this thread and apologize for both your tone and your inaccurate statements? (i doubt it.)
    Will you return to apologise if you turn out to be wrong? Just as unlikely. As for my tone, it's no worse than anybody else's in this thread, including yours. Only difference is my opinion doesn't line up with yours, and apparently you don't seem to like that.

    There seems to be a misconception here that having less skills makes a class 'dumbed down'. Done a certain way, yes, but it is not an inherent guarantee. As I said before, the Devs have done right by the LM for a long time, and I personally am going to be cautiously optimistic. The class could do with some tidying up in terms of skills, IMO.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Will you return to apologise if you turn out to be wrong? Just as unlikely. As for my tone, it's no worse than anybody else's in this thread, including yours. Only difference is my opinion doesn't line up with yours, and apparently you don't seem to like that.

    There seems to be a misconception here that having less skills makes a class 'dumbed down'. Done a certain way, yes, but it is not an inherent guarantee. As I said before, the Devs have done right by the LM for a long time, and I personally am going to be cautiously optimistic. The class could do with some tidying up in terms of skills, IMO.
    I agree with you here. I've played the LM for four years now, and can confidently say that, as a class, we're definitely not doing any worse than we used to. The problem is that the game has become much simpler - a result of catering to more casual players, which I understand (even if I don't really like it)

    For example, look at the Rift. One of the things which made it so awesome to play back in the day was that LMs had so much to do. They spot healed, debuffed, CCed, cured stuff and never ran out of things to do. Even nowadays, when duoing it with a friend at level 85, I find that the mechanics are so well designed that it's incredibly difficult to just muscle through the bosses. But times have changed, and an increasing number of mobs are becoming immune to CC, taking out a large portion of our old job. Our traditional roles have been replaced with better DPS and healing.

    The class hasn't changed. The game has.
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  18. #18
    That Producer's Letter put great fear in myself, all my friends, and kin mates like nothing I have seen before. I am not an MMO veteran, but according to some of them, class simplification wrecked other games.

    In my opinion, the lore-master class faired so well through previous updates precisely because the responsible developers largely left things alone. The class steadily gained power with adjustments to skills like Bane Flare, but there was no massive reworking such as with the Warden or Minstrel.

    An advanced class should remain advanced. I would go further: only a fool drastically changes a product customers enjoy. If you want to attract customers who prefer easier classes, create 4 new simplified classes---one tank, one healer, one DPS, and one support--and let players have MORE options, not less.

  19. #19
    Join Date
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    My persona cent:

    Fix Wind Lore ...
    Give an incoming healing debuff for PvP on frost lore or any other lore skill ...
    Increase healing from inner flame
    Remove animation from daze and root ... atm lore master can't use an istant stun like a burglar
    Upgrade the diminishing damage from the lore skill ... usually this 30% melee is a bit low versus a enemy with skill very strong ( boss debuffed can still hit too much ) tbh many time i can't fell the really impact of debuff on the enemy like before. ( boss not debuffed = tank dead )

    Rewamp on all Pets
    Change animation of the summoned pet
    Change color of the stiky's fire ( for me they can use an item for change color like green blue red yellow etc ... ) that can be in lore cause like the fire if you put another essence on the fire you are going to have another color like "Cu SO4"
    Change the color of the warding's circle and give a debuff for PvP
    Put a debuff for stiky tar like for the spider web.
    Improve Knowledge of the Lore-master ...
    Increase duration of Sign of Power: Righteousness ... some time so annoyng to put debuff an all fellow every 1'30'' ... and well .. if you are the only LM in a 12 man raid can be only awfull

    Fix DR on ettenz ... atm CC of a lore master are all like around 0 sec ...

 

 

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