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  1. #76
    This update isn't a nerf to agility classes, it's just a direct nerf to the agility stat.

    We're a lot more than just agility stacking creep punching bags and there are so many ways of keeping crit decent enough to cap at 25% in PvE raids while keeping high PM. With U10, the hunters who have maintained a ~11k-12k crit rating will have to adjust for the agility stat change however, reducing somewhat our PM.

    I really doubt this update will be as bad as everyone assumes, especially if you're coming from the PvP perspective where we're getting a direct buff from BFP.

    Hunters will find a way to raid-cap crit and if you're not already at 37k+ PM and raid buffed crit, you perhaps just aren't as geared as you thought.

  2. #77
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    I don't post much here, but should be fairly simple math. If crit chance is reduced by 2%, say, and crit magnitude is increased by say, 5%, we'll come out ahead (.98 * 1.05 = 1.029). The real key is to look at some parses and compare our new parses to say, rk parses, and see how things are looking.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ebuyarski View Post
    I don't post much here, but should be fairly simple math. If crit chance is reduced by 2%, say, and crit magnitude is increased by say, 5%, we'll come out ahead (.98 * 1.05 = 1.029). The real key is to look at some parses and compare our new parses to say, rk parses, and see how things are looking.
    We actually need an extra 10% to level it out, as by losing 2% raw crit, we are losing ~10% of our critical hits.

    Think of it like this. If a really bad hunter only has 4% ranged crit and loses 2%, his magnitude will need to increase 50% to compensate.

    That said, a well geared hunter should be able to achieve an extra 10% on critical magnitude (1.5 to 1.65). I read a champ thread where the magnitude was valued around an extra 40%.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    This update isn't a nerf to agility classes, it's just a direct nerf to the agility stat.

    We're a lot more than just agility stacking creep punching bags and there are so many ways of keeping crit decent enough to cap at 25% in PvE raids while keeping high PM. With U10, the hunters who have maintained a ~11k-12k crit rating will have to adjust for the agility stat change however, reducing somewhat our PM.

    I really doubt this update will be as bad as everyone assumes, especially if you're coming from the PvP perspective where we're getting a direct buff from BFP.

    Hunters will find a way to raid-cap crit and if you're not already at 37k+ PM and raid buffed crit, you perhaps just aren't as geared as you thought.

    Diminishing returns on Physical Mastery begin at 32k which is approximately 102%, after that, you need more and more PM so that it makes a difference because of the curve. At 35k you're sitting at about 106%, at 37k ~109%, as the PM gets larger, so does the amount you need in order to get to another percentage.


    So there you have the choice of, capping crit, thereby hitting big numbers more often vs trying to get to that extra percentage, or you can begin to (as most hunters choose) start building up your mitigations, so essentially 1k morale vs like 2% physical mastery. I chose to build up my crit, and the reason is quite simple, I can hit more consistent numbers than the PM oriented hunter, which means higher sustained DPS. If I need to gain a little bit more morale and mitigations, I can switch things out, but there is no point in trying to reach a higher PM because that is basically more difficult to reach than capping crit and doesn't give much in return anyways.


    In order to reach high PM as in over 35k PM, one would have to give up quite a bit of crit given that most crit based jewellery offers 113 agility as opposed to 150 and some PM, so if you have 37k+ PM chances are that even with the crit buff, you aren't even capped.
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  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    Diminishing returns on Physical Mastery begin at 32k which is approximately 102%, after that, you need more and more PM so that it makes a difference because of the curve. At 35k you're sitting at about 106%, at 37k ~109%, as the PM gets larger, so does the amount you need in order to get to another percentage.


    So there you have the choice of, capping crit, thereby hitting big numbers more often vs trying to get to that extra percentage, or you can begin to (as most hunters choose) start building up your mitigations, so essentially 1k morale vs like 2% physical mastery. I chose to build up my crit, and the reason is quite simple, I can hit more consistent numbers than the PM oriented hunter, which means higher sustained DPS. If I need to gain a little bit more morale and mitigations, I can switch things out, but there is no point in trying to reach a higher PM because that is basically more difficult to reach than capping crit and doesn't give much in return anyways.


    In order to reach high PM as in over 35k PM, one would have to give up quite a bit of crit given that most crit based jewellery offers 113 agility as opposed to 150 and some PM, so if you have 37k+ PM chances are that even with the crit buff, you aren't even capped.
    Anything over 11.5k crit really isn't needed and one could argue for a bit less. Currently I'm sitting at 38.1k PM and just at 11k crit, which still gets capped at raid times due to the buffs of other classes. I'd gladly take more PM over crit right now if U10 wasn't happening, but of course now with the agility swap it'll change some things up but not by much.

    Once U10 hits, then the best build will be found again but for now, it's pointless to cap crit solo at the expense of PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    Anything over 11.5k crit really isn't needed and one could argue for a bit less. Currently I'm sitting at 38.1k PM and just at 11k crit, which still gets capped at raid times due to the buffs of other classes. I'd gladly take more PM over crit right now if U10 wasn't happening, but of course now with the agility swap it'll change some things up but not by much.

    Once U10 hits, then the best build will be found again but for now, it's pointless to cap crit solo at the expense of PM.
    Again, this is why you use different builds for different situations and don't use one single build for everything or you'll be weak in many different areas. A raid build doesn't need capped crit, you can stack PM and morale/mits/whatever because you have the buffs to make up for your DPS and cappable stats.

    And no, capping crit solo isn't pointless at all. Unless you consider solo running with a pocket cappy to crit buff you. You WILL do more DPS with capped crit solo than a non-capped PM stacking hunter.
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  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Again, this is why you use different builds for different situations and don't use one single build for everything or you'll be weak in many different areas. A raid build doesn't need capped crit, you can stack PM and morale/mits/whatever because you have the buffs to make up for your DPS and cappable stats.

    And no, capping crit solo isn't pointless at all. Unless you consider solo running with a pocket cappy to crit buff you. You WILL do more DPS with capped crit solo than a non-capped PM stacking hunter.
    All of my posts have referred to raid capping crit. Of course people build differently for different situations. However, there's not a big need for a solo crit cap build unless you're specifically referring to PvP, which is a whole different scenario. Solo crit capping is pointless as landscape mobs are pushovers anyways, which require no need for another build.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    All of my posts have referred to raid capping crit. Of course people build differently for different situations. However, there's not a big need for a solo crit cap build unless you're specifically referring to PvP, which is a whole different scenario. Solo crit capping is pointless as landscape mobs are pushovers anyways, which require no need for another build.
    Given your crit rating, it is unlikely that even with raid buffs you can even cap. I know plenty of hunters with more PM than I had who can't deal the same DPS or higher than I can.
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  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    Given your crit rating, it is unlikely that even with raid buffs you can even cap. I know plenty of hunters with more PM than I had who can't deal the same DPS or higher than I can.
    I'm not going to argue the point about crit anymore. It's clear you can cap crit while in raid while starting from 11k. Thus, stacking PM is the next logical source unless the raid calls for more mits.

  10. #85
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    I thought the main point was No Fate=lack of mitigation? Regardless of raw morale or raw icpr or raw power or raw crit rate: if you can't take 1 boss area effect spam, you can't deal any dps at all.

    I still think it's just a stat bundle selling point, in 85 gear I find little Fate if I want to keep Agi on top.

    Invested good game cash in agility and it doesn't even get me chance to hit And STILL only one viable stance to generate dps focus.

    I'm probably seeing this the wrong way.

    EDIT And as to aoe-spam: it eats 1 full bar of power all too fast, 95-99% of the time a group in a PVE raid situation want to keep stuff rooted/mezzed and you get slapped for area spam
    Last edited by Macroscian; Feb 05 2013 at 01:39 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    I'm not going to argue the point about crit anymore. It's clear you can cap crit while in raid while starting from 11k. Thus, stacking PM is the next logical source unless the raid calls for more mits.
    Again, taking your crit, even with IDOME and a crit buff, 12.8k crit =/= 13.4k.
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  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    Again, taking your crit, even with IDOME and a crit buff, 12.8k crit =/= 13.4k.
    Crit buff is 1.8k + BB (172) + IDOME + Food + Warbanner = 13.4k.

    U10 will change all of that, but for now it's enough for raiding.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    This update isn't a nerf to agility classes, it's just a direct nerf to the agility stat.
    The first part of that sentence does not compute with the second. I would just call a spade a spade.

    We're a lot more than just agility stacking creep punching bags
    You are absolutely correct there, or rather, we SHOULD be a lot more than agility stacking bags. But look at the gears they given us since RoI. Look at all those teal agi gears with no other stats. The devs deliberately made us what we are today. I've said this before they went down this road. They'll get more and more of us to be one-trick agility monkey over time and then WHAM a nerf to agil. To those who are still in denial (not talking to Zulu directly), take a good hard look at this update. I told ya so.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    Crit buff is 1.8k + BB (172) + IDOME + Food + Warbanner = 13.4k.

    U10 will change all of that, but for now it's enough for raiding.
    That's if the cappy chooses to use the DPS banner. I know I prefer to use the morale banner and that's the one I'm asked for in raids on my cappy.

    I'd rather not rely on the cappy given that sometimes (and though this is rare) we can't get a cappy in both groups or they might not have IDOME traited in favour of a different trait or what have you. Relying on a cappy doesn't not guarantee you capped crit.
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  15. #90
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    in the end its all about balance. No point having capped crit unbuffed if your PM is 35k as a PvE hunter. At the same time no point in having 39.5k unbuffed if your crit is under 10k.

    i would say 36k+ with atleast 10k crit would be enough to be competitive. Both PM and crit have diminishing values so base your build on that and compare gains/losses on each stat.

    No point raiding with 14 or 15k crit if its costing you mastery
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  16. #91
    Yea, I'd rather balance it, once you can hit critic cap with captain, I'd stop, but hey.....critic now also boost our magnitudes, everything will change , Let's see how it works out.
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  17. #92
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    In doing the math on live I found agility to contribute about 1.7 to crit. If fate contributes 2.5, if you leave your agility levels as they are (or grow them) and just let the fate increases as they're added to armor take affect, isn't it a net-wash?

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Im not sure what happened to burgs though, they got on the poop list but they used to be top of the food chain.
    Nope we were never top of the food chain. We were an accident that they couldnt decide how to fix so after a long period of time they decided to throw it in the waste basket and leave it there.
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