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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennicide View Post
    it's only a nerf if the amount lost on crit is more than the amount gained on how agility affects out crit magnitude.

    Crit rating is being nerfed, crit magnitude is being boosted. Once the outcome of this net effect has been calculated we will know whether it's a nerf.

    My guess is that losing 2% crit (or the net effect of 2 out of every 100 shots now not critting) will be easily outweighed by the new crit magnitude.

    In addition, our AOE will be heavily boosted with the "one crit, all crit" rule - ok this will be the same for all classes, but then they don't have a trait that adds 5151 to aoe crit rating, and 25% to the magnitude.
    Crit magnitude increases the damage of a crit but what if you are not getting as many crits due to lower crit rating?
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennicide View Post
    it's only a nerf if the amount lost on crit is more than the amount gained on how agility affects out crit magnitude.

    Crit rating is being nerfed, crit magnitude is being boosted. Once the outcome of this net effect has been calculated we will know whether it's a nerf.

    My guess is that losing 2% crit (or the net effect of 2 out of every 100 shots now not critting) will be easily outweighed by the new crit magnitude.

    In addition, our AOE will be heavily boosted with the "one crit, all crit" rule - ok this will be the same for all classes, but then they don't have a trait that adds 5151 to aoe crit rating, and 25% to the magnitude.
    A very good post, i too had glossed over that aspect of the crit changes thanks for bringing to everyones attention. I'm a new hunter so i don't have any historic nerfs in the back of my mind but I can understand people feeling threatened at the (rather strong) suggestion of a nerf.

    The truth of the changes though is revealed by testing the numbers rather than expert opinion. After all einstein was wrong about the universe ( he thought it was static and rejected big bang ) so I'll be damned if "expert hunter" can't be wrong occasionaly especially when they seem to have missed one half of the info.

    If anyones interested in reliably determining the effect on dps 5x 5min dummy runs with controlled conditions on usual server and BR would be fairly conclusive. Alot of work and I dont have the time and not respected enough anyhow. If anyone does im sure they would be greatly appreciated by the hunter community.

    Although im sure dummies don't have crit defense....
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    Lets wait till this plays out before everyone is up in arms.
    Thats what they said about <insert controversial things over the years>. If bullroarer isn't the place to voice, I don't know where is. Wait til it hit the live environment and then wait years (see force emotes) for the fixed, assuming they fix it? No thanks. For the record, we want to catch major problems like this BEFORE we have to deal with it for weeks or months or years after it hit live. Those who advocates otherwise do not have your best interest at heart.
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  4. #54
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    I don't say wait to QQ, but I do say lets get some hard data in here. We need DPS parses from live and BR with the same conditions and the same gear, and lots of them. I suspect that the crit magnitude change will more than make up for loss of crit rating, but RL is making it hard to log in at all atm to check. Also the jewelry situation will change massively once the loot is actually hooked up.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennicide View Post
    it's only a nerf if the amount lost on crit is more than the amount gained on how agility affects out crit magnitude.

    Crit rating is being nerfed, crit magnitude is being boosted. Once the outcome of this net effect has been calculated we will know whether it's a nerf.

    My guess is that losing 2% crit (or the net effect of 2 out of every 100 shots now not critting) will be easily outweighed by the new crit magnitude.

    In addition, our AOE will be heavily boosted with the "one crit, all crit" rule - ok this will be the same for all classes, but then they don't have a trait that adds 5151 to aoe crit rating, and 25% to the magnitude.
    unless you are traiting Rain of Arrows spam (takes 3-4 traits to get to maximum effectiveness) the "one crit all crit" thing will be almost insignificant. (and im not sure it works the way you described IDK ill take another look, I was under the impression that it was a bleed only thing)

    If they do work as you describe, then it is in fact HURTFUL to non-ROA spam hunters.... because boss/creep AOE will be critting more (one crit on an AOE, everyone gets hit crit... including the Hunter.)

    also: the changes to crit mag boost creep DPS, but the crit defense on armor will have to = the amount that the crit mag increased, or we will be seeing creeps crit us higher. If its anything below, its a buff to creep DPS vs Hunters.

    new crit magnitude is completely (at least in PMVP) negated by the boost to crit defense (notes say it was boosted to counter the changes to crit mag, making the net change 0 vs a creep that is traiting the same crit defense as before)


    for normal level mobs etc... we will prolly see a boost in DPS since their crit defense increase will =/= our increase, but vs higher ranked mobs we may see a decrease.


    Im excited about battlefield promo..... but a 6-10% increase in raw damage wont make up for lost crit.... and 10% more health hardly changes the situation. The only thing the battle promo does it increase damage/health by marginal amounts at your typical rank (ranks 6-10) and does not change the situation with our sizable nerf to crit and survival (as explained by others) essentially it takes the edge off the nerf..... but its still a nerf.



    oh... and the "one crit all crit" rule.. if it works the way you describe.... will make champions even more desirable for raids. All the fancy op stuff they can do now + being able to crit on almost every AOE attack on all mobs + boss? got 3 more parry per might? yea. we cant compete.





    again, we will have to see the gear. Unless they pour on just as much fate onto our gear as to make up for our nerf to crit, we will be hit where it hurts most... and unless they pour on loads of crit defence onto our gear as to counter the increase to creep crit mag.. we will become even more marshmallow-like

    and again, almost everyone else is moving forward here while we are either stuck or moving backwards.... we get weaker in comparison.
    Last edited by Lendas; Feb 02 2013 at 12:08 PM.

  6. #56
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    and naturally all our gear that we can get is mor agi phy crit and vit? thinking hytbold for us no raiders here

    and exactly how is the change justified?
    Burn the books!

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    unless you are traiting Rain of Arrows spam (takes 3-4 traits to get to maximum effectiveness) the "one crit all crit" thing will be almost insignificant.
    It can also be argued that losing 2 crits out of 100 shots is also insignificant.

    Not that you would think that by reading this thread.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lioheart View Post
    Then you hadn't been doing your reading on the updates then and actually pay attention to the changes.

    1. Agility now contribute 1:1 for CR.
    2. Fate now contributes 1:1.5 if i remember correctly meaning it's better for those who cares about big hits.
    3. To maximize dps now we must either lose PM/parry/evade or vit/morale/mits for Fate just for the CR it gives.

    Had you actually gone on bullroarer? Because I had and loss 2.3k crit rating.

    Also, base crit has nothing to do with the nerf (which is like some 3-5k I'm not sure). It is the the point that agility now contributes less towards CR than Fate meaning we must trade something for higher dps.
    Go ahead and keep your build the same, you likely notice the big change once U10 comes when mobs begins to have crit defense and you keeping that same build because with low fate Post-U10 your crit rate well be no more than around 7.3k with 3k agility.



    Oh and remember what you said?


    You are going to have to say bye bye to vit and morale to get CR at cap aka have lower morale and become squishier to get it capped. We'll have to wait and see what are the new gears are like.

    I have indeed gone on bullroarer and I only lost 1.8% crit. I was already over capped without trying preU10. If you lost that much, then again, something was wrong with your build

    For PvE of course.



    Above is what my crit is on Bullroarer. Easily able to cap once more if I change a few things around, all the while GAINING morale if I can get the jewellery pieces I've got my eyes set on.
    Last edited by QueenArleth; Feb 02 2013 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Added the picture

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    I have indeed gone on bullroarer and I only lost 1.8% crit. I was already over capped without trying preU10. If you lost that much, then again, something was wrong with your build

    For PvE of course.



    Above is what my crit is on Bullroarer. Easily able to cap once more if I change a few things around, all the while GAINING morale if I can get the jewellery pieces I've got my eyes set on.
    Holy God, that +magnitude %. I'm going to have to go to Bullroarer and do some parses. I'm pretty sure we'll come out with even more DPS, so it could actually be a bit of a buff for us, considering we're still generally the class with the highest crit rating.

    And our builds are the same, so the fate change really won't effect us much. (for Arlie and I)

    I don't know where this 'trade fate for vit' stuff is coming from, you still won't need to stack fate to cap crit. Just get base crit, crit on relics, fate legacies, etc. I'm seeing a whole lot of numbers people are posting, speculating, talking about, but no real screenshots of what they ACTUALLY get. Stop being so doom and gloom and just see how it actually factors out and you might be surprised it's not THAT bad, and could actually come out better with the magnitude changes.
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  10. #60
    Is that critical/devastating magnitude increase taking into account the focus/induction legacy in bow?
    Thanks
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  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    I have indeed gone on bullroarer and I only lost 1.8% crit. I was already over capped without trying preU10. If you lost that much, then again, something was wrong with your build

    For PvE of course.



    Above is what my crit is on Bullroarer. Easily able to cap once more if I change a few things around, all the while GAINING morale if I can get the jewellery pieces I've got my eyes set on.
    What's your PM in this picture? I'm not sure why you're still trying to cap crit solo because you're nerfing your raw PM for crit that can be gained through IDOME, Cappy Crit, and food. If your PM was at 38k+ though, I'd understand swapping to crit then though.

    Also, to everyone, has anyone tested overcapping 25% crit to see if the magnitude continues to increase? If it does, that would be pretty interesting to figure out the perfect diminishing returns build to make for the best possible DPS.
    Last edited by Zulubeast; Feb 02 2013 at 03:07 PM.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulubeast View Post
    What's your PM in this picture? I'm not sure why you're still trying to cap crit solo because you're nerfing your raw PM for crit that can be gained through IDOME, Cappy Crit, and food. If your PM was at 38k+ though, I'd understand swapping to crit then though.

    Also, to everyone, has anyone tested overcapping 25% crit to see if the magnitude continues to increase? If it does, that would be pretty interesting to figure out the perfect diminishing returns build to make for the best possible DPS.
    The more critical rating you have, the better magnitude.

    At least I am told so, you can boost your critical magnitude over the critical hit CAP.

    But as I said, I am told so, not 100% sure yet.
    .
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  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    I have indeed gone on bullroarer and I only lost 1.8% crit. I was already over capped without trying preU10. If you lost that much, then again, something was wrong with your build

    For PvE of course.



    Above is what my crit is on Bullroarer. Easily able to cap once more if I change a few things around, all the while GAINING morale if I can get the jewellery pieces I've got my eyes set on.
    My hunter atm has 2754 agility with 9.3k CR without critical eye traited. When I went on to bullroarer I loss around 2.3k CR.

    Oh looky here I see the main difference, You have more fate than my hunter does by like 170 fate (not much)
    From what I see, you are just putting in raw CR from gears to raise up your CR.
    One thing though, I cannot see your PM and other stats.
    EDIT: I also mention that I am not going to fully call it a nerf until I see the new gears.

  14. #64
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    good to see that this isn't a "mega nerf".... but still. Moors gear has 0 fate.... and moors is where we hurt the most.

    also:

    notes say that crit defense has been buffed to counter crit rating mag increase... Im not sure of details but be aware of that.

    I found an analogy for the hunter situation: death by a thousand cuts.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lendas View Post
    good to see that this isn't a "mega nerf".... but still. Moors gear has 0 fate.... and moors is where we hurt the most.

    also:

    notes say that crit defense has been buffed to counter crit rating mag increase... Im not sure of details but be aware of that.

    I found an analogy for the hunter situation: death by a thousand cuts.
    Just thought I'd point it out, but Hytbold gear doesn't have fate either. We don't absolutely need fate on our gear to be competent, even with the new changes.
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  16. #66
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    Yet another reason to be rocking the Faron set - more fate
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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    I have indeed gone on bullroarer and I only lost 1.8% crit. I was already over capped without trying preU10. If you lost that much, then again, something was wrong with your build

    For PvE of course.



    Above is what my crit is on Bullroarer. Easily able to cap once more if I change a few things around, all the while GAINING morale if I can get the jewellery pieces I've got my eyes set on.
    You are pve which hunters dont lack at. What we do lack at is in pvp. Your morale is already too low for pvp. Also what is your mits and PM at?
    .
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  18. #68
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    Out of curiosity, what are the pve caps for crit and mastery? I don't want to roll over cap and be wasting space for potential others heh.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by suprra View Post
    Out of curiosity, what are the pve caps for crit and mastery? I don't want to roll over cap and be wasting space for potential others heh.
    25% crit, 10% dev, no cap on PM

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  20. #70
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    ty much <3

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Tithias View Post
    You are pve which hunters dont lack at. What we do lack at is in pvp. Your morale is already too low for pvp. Also what is your mits and PM at?
    Her morale is at around 8.6k if I'm right, which is decent without losing much dps. Then again what I am more interested is not her capped CR but rather her PM and mits because the only difference between her build and my build is she has lvl 85 jewelry while I've been slacking on them because I've been upgrading my rk big time over my hunter. (majority are old lvl 75 agility raid, LG set, and Predunce and Resident Ring and 2 purples which are there because of bad skraid rolls kept me from improving gears)

    Even with my gears, my PM stands at 35.7k (you can check my profile). So I am wandering what is her PM and mits
    Last edited by lioheart; Feb 03 2013 at 04:59 AM.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by suprra View Post
    ty much <3
    I'd also like to point out that PM does have a soft cap when damage output reaches 100% ( or ~32k) After that point ever point of PM has diminishing returns.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lioheart View Post
    Her morale is at around 8.6k if I'm right, which is decent without losing much dps. Then again what I am more interested is not her capped CR but rather her PM and mits because the only difference between her build and my build is she has lvl 85 jewelry while I've been slacking on them because I've been upgrading my rk big time over my hunter. (majority are old lvl 75 agility raid, LG set, and Predunce and Resident Ring and 2 purples which are there because of bad skraid rolls kept me from improving gears)

    Even with my gears, my PM stands at 35.7k (you can check my profile). So I am wandering what is her PM and mits
    This is a full DPS build for PVE with no survivability intended, except what's given by base morale. She uses an entirely different build in the moors which is much more survivable while not sacrificing much DPS (except phys mastery, because OP buffs). Her PM is between 35-36k with PVE build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tithias View Post
    You are pve which hunters dont lack at. What we do lack at is in pvp. Your morale is already too low for pvp. Also what is your mits and PM at?
    This isn't a PVP build at all, she's already said over and over it's a PVE-centralized setup. Not even a remotely relevant question if you're trying to compare that to a PVP build.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    This is a full DPS build for PVE with no survivability intended, except what's given by base morale. She uses an entirely different build in the moors which is much more survivable while not sacrificing much DPS (except phys mastery, because OP buffs). Her PM is between 35-36k with PVE build.



    This isn't a PVP build at all, she's already said over and over it's a PVE-centralized setup. Not even a remotely relevant question if you're trying to compare that to a PVP build.

    This.

    I have already stated, and I repeat it every time I post anything regarding my PvE build, this is not my moors build. My Moors build has higher mits and more morale, thereby meaning that it has more survivability.

    My PM in my PvE build is what Theiol said, between 35k - 36k and my mitigations are not capped. It is not necessary because the people I run with know how to tank and they know how to heal. In PvE, mitigations are not as important as many people make them out to see. In PvP they are, thus my completely different build for the Moors.

    My point is that too many of you have been too focused on mitigations and other things so when this update goes live, you'll be losing enough crit that it makes a difference. Maybe all the hunters crying about this being a nerf need to reevaluate their builds.

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  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    This.

    I have already stated, and I repeat it every time I post anything regarding my PvE build, this is not my moors build. My Moors build has higher mits and more morale, thereby meaning that it has more survivability.

    My PM in my PvE build is what Theiol said, between 35k - 36k and my mitigations are not capped. It is not necessary because the people I run with know how to tank and they know how to heal. In PvE, mitigations are not as important as many people make them out to see. In PvP they are, thus my completely different build for the Moors.

    My point is that too many of you have been too focused on mitigations and other things so when this update goes live, you'll be losing enough crit that it makes a difference. Maybe all the hunters crying about this being a nerf need to reevaluate their builds.
    All I was asking was just the numbers and I thank you for showing them to see how your setup build was. +rep if I could just for showing the numbers.

    As I stated before, I won't call the change a complete nerf until new gears are shown.

 

 
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