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  1. #1

    Should the Rift of Nurz Ghashu be 85 scale able?

    In my opinion the Rift is one of the best, and most solid raids in the game. It has been largely free of the bugs that have appeared in other raids and relies on very solid core mechanics. Plus you get to kill a Balrog and get some epic looking loot for it. But the problem remains what the raid was designed for a time when the level cap was lower, a time when a lvl 50 raid was close enough to endgame to matter. but now with the cap at 85 this amazing raid is seldom run. I myself have only run it a handful of times and never on level. I would love to see this raid restored by having it scale able up to 85. This would also allow for the potential that the awesome looking items that drop from the tokens can get used for actual late game armour instead of being stuck on a cosmetic slot for all eternity. plus the raid loses it's challenging aspect when you run it at a higher level than intended, turning it into a several hour grind, and a long walk. What are everyone else's opinions? should Tharlauch be able to inflict copious amounts of dread from the high level of 85?
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  2. #2
    Absolutely it should be. Right up at the top of my list of things I'd like to see. Along with a scalable Carn Dum without other modifications and scaling Moria instances.

  3. #3
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    No.

    I'm not a fan of the scaling of instances. I haven't liked any of the changes so far and I also don't like the way it divides the leveleling for those looking for the instances.

    Make new content. Leave existing as is.

    Of course, this is moot. I believe they have mentioned that a constant goal is to keep scaling instances.

  4. #4
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    This is probably THE best raid in the game

    Numerous Dev Chats have stated that Scaling the Rift is "In the Works" and on their "To-Do" List

    I just hope they don't work it in the same way they did to Helegrod, another fine Raid

    The main idea of the Rift is to defeat ALL the Bosses BEFORE you can reach Thaurlach
    We don't want it split into wings, so that after 1 session you can just run straight into the Balrog Fight

    I can't wait to see what they do to Thrang.
    That was one of, if not THE, toughest fight in the Rift first time round and on-level
    Trying to get the damn Shaman before they healed each other was a real PITA
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  5. #5
    The Rift should never be scaled.

    My best LotRO memories come from playing in the Rift: all the bosses were great, the music was wonderful and unique in each room, it has its very own Reputation Faction and I actually felt like a great warrior breaching this fortified stronghold in Angmar (first time I did it, we fought those Elite mobs from the outside which made it even more epic).

    Because of this, if the Devs are able to scale the Rift and keep everything the same except mob level and damage output, I would love to see a scaled Rift. Unfortunately, I have a strong feeling that the Devs will turn the Rift into another one of their scaled instances that receive bad reviews.

    I want no wings, I want it to all be one raid (people that don't have the time to complete an 8 boss instance don't have to play: we have the entire Rohan expansion for these people), I do not want itemization in the Rift (I don't care how many times you have to grind to win the gems at the end of each boss, it totally beats Bounties), and I want absolutely no mobs to be removed like was seen in Sammath Gul. Unfortunately, some itemization was already introduced in the Rift. After Update 9, when our group killed the Balrog, four people got the sword. This use to be a rare yard item.

    Regardless, if the Devs do choose to scale it, may I suggest to have two separate instances, one being the original, untouched, nonscale-able level 50 raid called "The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu Classic" or something to that effect, and a second, scale-able instance called "The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu" which (if the Devs think it should be) is split into wings, has decreased mobs, and itemization. This way, all parties will be happy with the changes.

  6. #6
    God if they do scale, I hope they do it justice not like BG.
    I am in the middle of Turbine scaling rift because imo I still think it's the best raid out there still. I find it funny when 85s who never done the rift gets one shot by the balrog
    “A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities.” -???

  7. #7
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    If they scale it and make it like BG with no locks, I'll be very sad. I enjoy going in and blasting though it with kinmates overleveled by 25 - 35 levels, but I wouldn't want to try to go through the whole thing in one go on level. If they split it up like Helegrod, I think that would be even worse.

    So my two cents is that if they can't work the raid locks with instance scaling, they should leave it alone.

    *edited to add* I don't mean to imply that I would only want to do this overleveled. I just wouldn't want to do it all in one sitting on level. I want to do it on level with raid locks.
    Originally Posted by Damian6988
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  8. #8
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    I have mixed feelings on this. They've done some good and some bad with scaling. Probably the best of the bunch has been Annuminas. Helegrod and Great Barrows lost so much by being split into pieces, and I would absolutely hate it if they did this to the Rift or Carn Dum. Fornost also lost something in being split up, but I think they still did a very good job scaling the instance overall. I also think they did a great job with BG, but the lack of locks is a definite minus on it. Still better than the alternative, but not by a whole lot.

  9. #9
    So much of what the devs have been doing lately leads me to believe that they are planning on introducing down-scaling for instances like the Rift. That way, they wouldn't need to change anything about the space, and just adjust players' levels to bring the challenge up. I just hope it remains optional!

    I posted some advantages and disadvantages about down-scaling here (including down-scaling of landscape content, which might be irrelevent):
    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Advantages:
    • Dungeons would not need to be scaled individually. Each dungeon could remain at the level it was designed for.
    • Players could complete specific zones over a larger level range. E.g. If you've been holding out on the Tomb of Elendil, you can still do it for credit at a later level and there will be more people interested in running it.
    • Players of widely varying levels could complete skirmishes and other scaling instances together. 8 level 75 players could earn their seals with 4 level 20s helping out in a Trouble in Tuckborough raid.
    • Larger pool of players for lower level dungeons. Most scaling instances are run either at the lowest level or the highest. Players in the 40s don't have much luck finding a group for the Great Barrow, but they would be most welcome in a group of 20s with a down-sidekicking system.
    • The challenge of older fun dungeons could still remain pretty high. No 3-manning the Rift. No 20-second Turtle zergs.
    • Marks, medallions, and seals could be awarded for every instance at a rate commensurate with each player's real level.

    Disadvantages:
    • This would require a huge revamp of the game's systems including an open tapping system (which they do seem to be adding in Rohan) and a player stat scaling algorithm. This makes my head hurt.
    • Loot dropped in these instances might become more generic, if it has to scale to the individual player.
    • Players might not want to go to Angmar at its original difficulty level. We would lose the ability to explore it unmolested.
    • Deed grinding would get harder again. Some slayer deeds will require groups. Old instance meta-deeds will become challenging again.
    • Mobs in instances would have static abilities. The level 20 wights you fight in the Great Barrow must be defeatable by level 20 players. Challenges for the level 75s would be reduced unless a challenge mode were added.
    • Players might avoid certain zones since they can get experience from low-level zones. (i.e. why go to Angmar when you can get experience at level 40 in the North Downs?)
    So some of the disadvantages have been eliminated with the addition of open tapping and individual loot rolls. The issues with scaling players' abilities still remain, however.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
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  10. #10
    yes yes yes yes yes yes yes /signed!

    Did rift on level with 11 of my other friends (all on level) and by god it was hard and lovely. Best raid ever.

    As long as it doesn't get splits like helegord, barrows,and fornots did I be for it.

    Next to be scaled as long as they retain locks and uneffected by the new looting system.
    1. Rift
    2. Carn Dum (make it a raid again!)
    3. ToO
    4. DN
    5. Watcher
    6. OD

    Scaled raids/instances that needs fixes
    1. BG: Give the locks back!
    2. Helegord: PUT IT BACK TO ONE RAID WITH LOCKS!
    3. Barrows: PUT ALL 3 BACK TOGETHER!
    4. Fornost: PUT IT ALL BACK TOGETHER WIth LOCKS!

  11. #11
    The rift brings back sentimental feelings from those of us that ran it on level back in 2007/08.
    But I have one nagging thought in the back of my mind - It is, in fact, a very easy raid by today's standards.

    In 2008, I completed the entire raid in a PUG on one of the lowest population European servers. We didn't even use vent or voice chat! I remember only a couple of people brought scrolls.

    How many other raids have been beaten by PUGS since then?
    ToO was only completed by a handful of hardcore kins. Same for OD.
    BG was completed by more kins, but we did have 18 months with only one on-level raid.
    All the evidence points raids getting harder, even as the player base becomes more experienced.

    I fear for rift sentimentalists out there - you will be disappointed when you realize there aren't many challenging mechanics in the rift.
    Maybe with the exception of the Balrog, which will always remain an iconic encounter.

    Having said that I hope they do scale it.
    Because simply put: More scaled content = more stuff to do.
    Last edited by Shooby; Jan 29 2013 at 06:29 AM.

  12. #12
    I personally think it should. And make it hard enough (maybe even add a Challenge) for 1st age symbols to drop there, because it's an epic raid. When at least 2 classes can solo it at cap (need a dummy player for Ever Seer stage), it's time to upgrade.
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  13. #13
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    Should it? I don't know.

    Presumably it will be scaled at some point, as at least one of the devs has indicated that scaling all the old instances is something that they'd like to do eventually.

    I'll leave out my usual rant against scaling instances, since it's basically a longer version of what hucklebarry said above (I'd rather see new content than recycled old content).

    However, I wouldn't expect to be all that thrilled with a scaled Rift. The fights are mechanically simplistic compared to what we have now*, so we'll either get the same Rift but with higher-level mobs (i.e., really easy fights for anyone who has done them before), or we'll get updated mechanics which will change the fights and thus negate some of the nostalgia that seems to be the main reason people want a scaled Rift.

    *(If that phrasing isn't entirely clear, I'm saying that the Rift is easy compared to raids like OD and Orthanc, and even DN and the Watcher for that matter.)

    Edit to add: Shooby beat me to the punch regarding how easy the Rift is. Sorry I didn't see your post before I posted.

  14. #14
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    Scaled, yes, but only if they leave it intact and do not break it into wings.

    To echo what others have said, I don't like the trend of scaling old content as a substitute for new content. However the Rift, and in my opinion OD, were really well designed and are vastly underplayed, and I'd love to revisit them on level.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whart View Post
    Scaled, yes, but only if they leave it intact and do not break it into wings.

    To echo what others have said, I don't like the trend of scaling old content as a substitute for new content. However the Rift, and in my opinion OD, were really well designed and are vastly underplayed, and I'd love to revisit them on level.
    The problem with leaving it intact is that - at least with present tech, according to jwbarry - it can't have locks. While the ability to knock out an entire Rift run in one evening is certainly within the capability of numerous raiding kins, it's not something that is very friendly to groups that are trying it for the first time or PuGs.

    A lockless Rift will, unless it has absolutely top-notch loot with reasonable (to us) drop rates, end up much like the scaled Fornost did after two days or like the scaled BG is in 9.1 - a ghost town.

    I actually agree with you, as I also would rather not see the Rift get the Helegrod treatment, but if they're going to go to the trouble of scaling more instances, I'd rather they make them places that we want to go to every week rather than blitz through once for the memories and be done with.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    The problem with leaving it intact is that - at least with present tech, according to jwbarry - it can't have locks. While the ability to knock out an entire Rift run in one evening is certainly within the capability of numerous raiding kins, it's not something that is very friendly to groups that are trying it for the first time or PuGs.

    A lockless Rift will, unless it has absolutely top-notch loot with reasonable (to us) drop rates, end up much like the scaled Fornost did after two days or like the scaled BG is in 9.1 - a ghost town.
    Hear ye nothing that I say? They're going to downscale it! Locks will continue to work!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  17. #17
    after reading what you guys have said, I agree that the best course of action to perserve this raid is infact to make it scalable, but to leave it as one intact raid with the raid locks. Honestly it would lose alot by being split up. although as it's formatted, it wouldn't be too difficult to do, but the fact is this raid is more than a smash and bash, it's a story on it's own, as your fight your way through various different evils, meet a new rep faction and ultimately face one of the last great evils in middle earth. if it were split up into wings, things would fall out of order and the raid would lose alot of it's more entertaining elements.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Hear ye nothing that I say? They're going to downscale it! Locks will continue to work!
    Do you have an tangible evidence for this? It seems LOTRO (rightly or wrongly) is going down the path of instances scaling up rather than player level scaling down. Having 2 systems does seem a bit contradictory and confusing?

  19. #19
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    I really don't understand anwsers like "Well, no one is running it since it's level 50, but it should not be changed cause I have a good memories running it 5 years ago". One of the best things devs are currently doing is scalling the instances! Scale 'em all!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratharim View Post
    I really don't understand anwsers like "Well, no one is running it since it's level 50, but it should not be changed cause I have a good memories running it 5 years ago". One of the best things devs are currently doing is scalling the instances! Scale 'em all!
    I don't understand either. Let's say they scale it and mess it up, what's the worst thing that can happen? Right, no one is going to play the Rift ... so where's the difference to the current situation? (no one running the rift because it's a level 50 raid)

    I'm all for developing new content over scaling old content, but I suppose the team working on scaled instances is another team then the one developing new raids/instances, so the manpower devoted to scaled instances might not affect the development of new content at all (so that giving up on scaling old content will not automatically lead to more new content).

    Scaled content is at least more on level content and I'll take that every day over skirmishing 24/7 or more 'endgame' content that exists in form or daily repeatable solo quests. More on level content = more options, I don't see how that is a bad thing.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratharim View Post
    I really don't understand anwsers like "Well, no one is running it since it's level 50, but it should not be changed cause I have a good memories running it 5 years ago". One of the best things devs are currently doing is scalling the instances! Scale 'em all!
    Yes I agree with this too... People always look at stuff with rose tinted specs. Let's face it, Helegrod wasnt a particulalry good raid at L50, people may well have had lots of fun times in there with old friends, long gone, but it wasnt because it was a greatly designed raid at all. Converting hele to wings made perfect sense and it hasnt really detracted from the experience at all, in fact for me it has enhanced it. Likewise, BG hasnt lost anything by being scaled, I'm sure they will do a good job with OD scaling in U10 too which is already 'wing based' anyway.

    As for the Rift, it will probably be scaled last as it will liekly require the most work. I suspect the Lothlorien cluster (DN, HoM, WW, HoC) will be next to be scaled, probably by the end of the year. GA may never get scaled as it is already available free so there would be no financial reward for the dev time required.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    Do you have an tangible evidence for this?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    It seems LOTRO (rightly or wrongly) is going down the path of instances scaling up rather than player level scaling down. Having 2 systems does seem a bit contradictory and confusing?
    That hasn't stopped them before.

    edit: But the reason I think they want to down-scale these instances is that they keep saying they're working on scaling them, but they also say that locks don't work in scaled content. The down-scaling system would be able to preserve raid locks.
    Last edited by dietlbomb; Feb 01 2013 at 10:54 PM.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratharim View Post
    I really don't understand anwsers like "Well, no one is running it since it's level 50, but it should not be changed cause I have a good memories running it 5 years ago". One of the best things devs are currently doing is scalling the instances! Scale 'em all!
    Exactly !
    In particular the 9 Moria instances, that nearly no 85 do as they are all soloable, so no challenge anymore, except Watcher probably that they do for their alts

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    I don't understand either. Let's say they scale it and mess it up, what's the worst thing that can happen? Right, no one is going to play the Rift ... so where's the difference to the current situation? (no one running the rift because it's a level 50 raid)

    I'm all for developing new content over scaling old content, but I suppose the team working on scaled instances is another team then the one developing new raids/instances, so the manpower devoted to scaled instances might not affect the development of new content at all (so that giving up on scaling old content will not automatically lead to more new content).

    Scaled content is at least more on level content and I'll take that every day over skirmishing 24/7 or more 'endgame' content that exists in form or daily repeatable solo quests. More on level content = more options, I don't see how that is a bad thing.
    I think that jwbarry is responsible for both new content and scaled content, but I could be wrong.

    The difference between nobody running some old content and nobody running that same content when it's scaled is that the latter situation used up man-hours to effectively not change anything. Of course, "this effort might fail" isn't a good reason to not do something, but given the history of scaled instances so far, I'm not terrible optimistic.

  25. #25
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    There has to be a reason they're scaling newer stuff in lieu of old.
    The haven't touched any of the Moria instances, yet recently did a 2-part revamp of the rest of the entire area. There is a ton of instanced content in Moria - what better time than during the revamp of the entire area?

    I think there is some type of coding issue or something. Granted they were able to revamp Hele, but Thorog was completely re-done even though the preliminary wings remained about the same.

    I personally don't feel that the Rift holds up all that well from a content standpoint relative to the other raids. The story was probably better done with the Rift, but most of the boss fights aren't anything special - and nothing I feel missing from my game experience. Up to Thrang, it was pretty simplistic.
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