No. our dps is okay now, adding more survivability shouldnt make us OP or anything, thinking that 50% of our skills just roots us to the ground.
When you (people) say hunters don't have survivability, what do you mean? Don't all non-tank classes have to give up their main stat (=DPS) for vit? What would you like?
Burglars need to balance agi and vit, too, and they're up front instead of out back. They don't have any bubbles. They have more CC skills, but hunters don't exactly have 0 CC skills.
Even champs are squishy when fervour and DPS specced.
I'm all for the ability to trait for more survival. Sounds fantastic!
I am also rather pleased to hear that Wardens are going to Agility. This means that we will have far better choices in itemization with vitality/agility gear. Also no longer will there be those medium armor might/vit quest rewards eating up a medium armor option.
If I can built for decent dps + much better survivability again (I was only able to do that when level 65 was at cap) then I am a happy camper.
Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine
Champs have two non-induction bubbles as far as I'm aware, and are able to manage their aggro better than hunters.
Hunters have three small heals, one that has a long induction (that can be interrupted), one that is channeled, and one that you need to be in melee for. For RoR, we were given Cry of the Hunter, which adds a very small bubble along with a few other buffs. However, this does not negate the strangeness of our other healing skills.
All of these classes have to deal with the dps/survivability problem, to be sure. Champs have it particularly rough because certain ones like to stack a fair amount of agility along with vitality and might.
Nevertheless, I would sacrifice dps (which we usually have to nerf in a fight anyways) for some solid, balanced changes for survivability. No more inductions, no more channels! If I'm in an emergency, it's an emergency!
Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.
Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
or how about a PVMP situation?
creeps have skills (or innate abilities like ranged damage) that 100% negate 4/5 of those skills? and of the remaining 1/5, how many actually help you survive more as opposed to rooting/immobilizing you?
I cant count the number on my hand because I cant "hold up" 0 fingers.
2) That said, the list above is pretty irrelevant:
Rain of Thorns - useful for trash pulls in T2 tower runs - otherwise useless
Distracting Shot - unspecified amount of de-threat, no stun on boss - pretty useless
Dazing blow - doesn't work on boss
Blindside - never use
Low cut - never use
Swift stroke - never use
Str Stance - never use
Fleetness - not useful anymore
Needful Haste - always use, but doesn't really impact make me less squishy.
Agile Rejoinder - never use, not in melee, too small of a heal
Cry of hunt - useful. I like this addition (see #1 above)
Press Onward - useless, never use
Improve Str of whatever - useless, never use unless I want some cheap power regen
Set Snare - pretty useless in pve
Set trap - pretty useless in pve
Cry of pred - forgot we had this skill.
bard arrow - useful in extremely rare trash CC pulls
For Pve, we are fine. landscape mobs are not a problem. Boss mobs aren't affected by most of the above, so they are irrelevant. The only thing we are still lacking is a reliable, measurable aggro dump.
Our surviability is paultry in comparison to other DPS classes. We gain more aggro than others, and die faster. A class isn't singular, and they are always in competition with each other for spots etc. Also, non of the above listed things do anything when you get hit for 10k by a boss with a threat book in endurance, having beneath noticed and used distracting shot.
And my HS hit for more in 2008 in the moors than it does now. Turbine. What are you doing. Turbine stahp.
Last edited by Stanimir; Jan 25 2013 at 02:09 AM.
Hunter dps was nerfed back in U2 and has never had much survival. Now they ask if we want survival would we give up more dps? lol Laughable. I've had to learn to use my dps to survive. Every other class gets more dps and more survival when updated we have to chose. pfft.
What about in PvP?
Whereby you're all but dead if caught by surprise by a branded creep.
Whereby all of the aforementioned CCs are all useless against said branded creep.
Whereby due to the increase in creep DPS, our bubble is a joke and sometimes doesn't even go off.
Whereby Press Onward has a ridiculous induction that is easily interruptible and isn't even scaled right.
Whereby our channeled heal is really weak and by the time you've finished channeling you're pretty much dead.
Whereby Agile Rejoinder is also a really weak heal.
Even if caught by surprise, a champ has a fighting chance. And those bubbles are a heck of a lot better than ours.
Even if caught by surprise, a burg has a fighting chance. And if they don't, they can always Touch and Go, hips or what have you.
Even if caught by surprise most other class has a fighting chance, rks/minstrels have heals, LMs have debuffs and waterlore, cappies have last stand and make haste.
My point is that hunters are not in a good place in terms of the moors. In PvE hunters are in a good place and I don't even have to give up DPS most of the time and I can even run with over 3k agility, capped crit, what have you. Unless the tank is sketchy in which case I swap out a few pieces in favour of a little bit more mitigations and morale, luckily enough I only run with kinnies. Even mediocre members of the other classes have a better chance than a mediocre hunter. Take note that I'm not saying that all hunters are bad and that no one can survive, when in a raid situation or when I'm the one catching them by surprise, I'm not helpless. But turbine should at least fix PO and our bubble, that would help with the moors situation a lot and not make up OP in PvE.
Last edited by QueenArleth; Jan 25 2013 at 07:30 AM.
But yes, basically hunters have a lot of tools at their disposal and I dont think we are far off as a lot of others seem to. The fact is melee is a reality for the pvp hunter and improved fleetness while nice dosent do a whole hell of a lot for my melee attacks. The only time I have gone bow master is if I know there are heals and its a well organized group. A lot of ridders play is pug, couple of dedicated PVP kins but not like it used to be.
All that said, Options are good and the dev answer is a step in the right direction. As it stands now, I cant see how any Hunters out there (unless in an ideal raid with heals) arent traited 5 blue, critical eye and heightened senses.
...just as long as we are not suddenly happy if Press Onward is scaled. You know, something as stupid as people trying to convince others everything has been fixed - because we got CotH! Ermagerd!
Scaling PO and presenting it as "Improved" version would be strangely similar nonsense. Think "Improved Split Shot". You fix this stuff, not treat as a valid basis for "even better" one. Please, don't mention "scaling PO" anywhere near class upgrades, bonuses, improvements etc. Same with BotR.
If it gets scaled as a part of some one-time deal to "improve" class, then just wait for the next cap raise and observe PO not scaling. Again.
if i wanted to kite monsters for fun with a bow and arrow id play my ranger in everquest. they are actually set up for it, and with a druid partner its even better. i thought hunters were dps, i dont raid anymore because it gets dull in endurance with the whisper tome to avoid aggro and having the right set up with traits etc. then if i want to solo chaning everything. cant think of another game where i have to change not only gear but all skills/traits etc to play two ways, the gear maybe some parts but the whole make up of the class, nah
Heartseeker - how did this not get in there?
tracking skills - now everyone can see red dots.
Burn hot - great, we finish boss fights 0.6 seconds earlier
Camouflage - had to go into my character>skills to find this one.
Plus, and utterly useless CC class trait - honestly, who is going to go for a hunter in CC when LM's do decent DPS and healing? ditch this and just give is a ranged tanking line, as that is a hunter's genuine secondary role in LotRo raids.
The question was about survivability, thus I didn't list HS and the others, but Camo should have been mentioned. I was just in the moors on Riddermark for about 4 hours and I gained 34 KBs. I run into melee range all the time, both PvMP and PvE, in order to CC and charge out and kite, and I survive. I can drop-pull keeps if the group needs me to. In skraids, healers don't have to focus so much on keeping me alive and I hardly ever fall. I've also off-tanked lower on lvl bosses in skraids before as well. All of this is due to using the list of skills that I mentioned and by tactfully gear swapping on-the-fly as need be. Please do not flame me for simply stating that there -is- an arsenal of skills for us that have been provided. I understand that I can be blunt, and that I can be mistaken for intentionally trying to be rude. I'm really not, I'm honestly just trying to help people understand the class more. Most of the skills I listed are completely ignored right now by almost every other hunter I see. If my original post offended anyone, my apologies.
Last edited by Vastrid; Jan 25 2013 at 08:00 PM.
I'm generally pretty pleased with my hunter right now. He's in better shape than he's been since all the problems with aggro and survivability (the medium armour nerf) were introduced in RoI. At level 85 and with Hytbold armour, he's nowhere near as squishy as he was at level 75. Cry of the Hunter has made a big difference to survivability. I believe my hunter makes a valuable contribution to the raids organised by our raid alliance. I actually enjoy managing his aggro in group play so that I maximise the dps that he does without grabbing aggro from the tank.
However, hunters have to compete for dps slots in pick up groups with other dps classes. I still see far too many pug leaders advertising for champions and turning down requests from my hunter to fill their dps slots. I believe that champions are still way too overpowered compared to the other dps classes, especially hunters. How does it make sense for champions to do as much damage as hunters, generate less aggro and get to wear heavy armour? I think the problem is not with hunters per se, but with the (lack of) balance between champions and hunters.
My worry about Hoarsedev's question as to whether we'd be willing to trade damage for survivability is that we're already much less survivable than champions. So why should we trade damage for survivability so that we end up doing less damage and still being less survivable than champions?
Is it too late to change the deal? How about we trade some of that "legendary 40m range", the same that drives so many people to mindlessly repeat various nonsense, for survivability? Surely, if it is "so potent", it trumps pure dps as you can also cc from the distance
Simple example : One of those Armor things in BG goes on random aggro, WHACK, your hunter is down 5k morale, the next hit will kill you. What do you do? In the order of the above list : rooting it won't work. Its immune to your distract and daze. Interrupt won't do a thing. Slowing it won't work. Fleetness won't help since even if you start running it's reach is farther than you can run in that one second. Rejoinder heal, assuming you already have the parry respond to get it off won't heal you enough. Its immune to your fear. The induction of Press Onward is too long, nor will it give you enough to survive a second hit. Ditto with SotE. Too late for traps. See above for daze/fear attempt.
All the OTHER classes have something they can do at THIS point as an zomgbbqhelp skill. The hunter? DF, run 5 minutes back through the instance to rejoin team, or risk bugging the boss or mobs (which it OFTEN does), or if it is a boss battle gets locked out and watch the remainder of the fight from outside a gate or door.
I hope that turbine does do some changes on the choices we can make for out classes play style. Maybe our trait lines will be made more efficient.
I hope "the change" will affect all other classes and they all will have to deal with "choice" hunters dealing with for long time.
Hunter IMHO will stay in current place, other classes will change.
I wonder how many "hunters-are-fine" posters will change their mind.
p.s. my english is bad, i know.
All I need is an update to Beneath Notice to drop more aggro, perhaps some bump to the cooldown legacy (or new trait). Will gladly trade the paltry power restore for better/more frequent aggro reduction.
Other than that, I'm pretty happy with PvE Hunters.
I do not PvMP so can't really help there...but then I don't think Aggro management has much to do with survivability in the Moors. I do not envy the dev's job of balancing PvE with PvMP.
hunter savivability is laughable to say the least our damage is on par with champs ( champs can out dps us though ) and look at the savivability they get compared to us if i get jumped in the moors by a highly ranked creep i might aswell stand there and take the death our damage in the moors is laughable and with very little healing ability you have to stay grouped up
cry of the hunter here is what ive noticed .........
the stupid animation induction takes so long it dont always go off
most creeps are imune to it by the time u need it due to using other cc skills during the fight or them branding
the bubble can be one shoted by most creeps making it useless
the run speed buff is useless aswell the second a ba or someone slows u it counters it and ur dead
things that could be added to coth to make it more usefull
bigger bubble that dosnt eat into our healthbar itself
remove the useless animation that takes 4seconds to go off
give hunters an incoming healing buff of 25% for 30 seconds (even in groups hunters are normally first target)
enable the slow to be uncounterable
as above with the run speed buff
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