We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The Internetz
    Posts
    1,930

    Results of the Dev Chat: A Dev Question to Hunters

    taken from dev chat transcripts
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Q29 @katabendroth Will hunters get more survivability, akin to the survivability of almost every other (non tank) class?
    A29 Hoarsedev Future updates to classes will make things like this a choice but not a given. #LOTRO
    A29 Would you trade damage for survivability?
    ...


    my take:

    I would love to have the Option to trade some of my DPS for survival.
    Last edited by Lendas; Jan 24 2013 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    17
    No. our dps is okay now, adding more survivability shouldnt make us OP or anything, thinking that 50% of our skills just roots us to the ground.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    4,084
    Question!

    When you (people) say hunters don't have survivability, what do you mean? Don't all non-tank classes have to give up their main stat (=DPS) for vit? What would you like?

    Burglars need to balance agi and vit, too, and they're up front instead of out back. They don't have any bubbles. They have more CC skills, but hunters don't exactly have 0 CC skills.

    Even champs are squishy when fervour and DPS specced.
    [size=1][i]A spaceship from another star / They ask me where all the people are
    I tell them I'm the only one / There was a war, but I must have won[/i][/size]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    Question!

    When you (people) say hunters don't have survivability, what do you mean? Don't all non-tank classes have to give up their main stat (=DPS) for vit? What would you like?
    It's in regards to skills for survival. We got a little bit of a boost with our new bubble. That isn't enough for many.

    I'm all for the ability to trait for more survival. Sounds fantastic!


    I am also rather pleased to hear that Wardens are going to Agility. This means that we will have far better choices in itemization with vitality/agility gear. Also no longer will there be those medium armor might/vit quest rewards eating up a medium armor option.

    If I can built for decent dps + much better survivability again (I was only able to do that when level 65 was at cap) then I am a happy camper.
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    Question!

    When you (people) say hunters don't have survivability, what do you mean? Don't all non-tank classes have to give up their main stat (=DPS) for vit? What would you like?

    Burglars need to balance agi and vit, too, and they're up front instead of out back. They don't have any bubbles. They have more CC skills, but hunters don't exactly have 0 CC skills.

    Even champs are squishy when fervour and DPS specced.
    I've played a burglar up to mid-50s (so I'm not an expert), but I can think of four skills off the bat that add instant (non-induction) survivability: Touch and Go, Mischievous Glee (you need a trick, but still), HiPS, and Ready and Able (which resets those.) I don't think I've died on my burglar since level 15.

    Champs have two non-induction bubbles as far as I'm aware, and are able to manage their aggro better than hunters.

    Hunters have three small heals, one that has a long induction (that can be interrupted), one that is channeled, and one that you need to be in melee for. For RoR, we were given Cry of the Hunter, which adds a very small bubble along with a few other buffs. However, this does not negate the strangeness of our other healing skills.

    All of these classes have to deal with the dps/survivability problem, to be sure. Champs have it particularly rough because certain ones like to stack a fair amount of agility along with vitality and might.

    Nevertheless, I would sacrifice dps (which we usually have to nerf in a fight anyways) for some solid, balanced changes for survivability. No more inductions, no more channels! If I'm in an emergency, it's an emergency!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000020fc74/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    75 hunter Cilantro *Retired until hunters see changes* 75 Warden Aerdith * 75 RK Vanmoriel * 67ish LM Celothwen * 52 Burg Lemongrass

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    PDX, OR
    Posts
    22

    Really?

    Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.

    Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
    [img]http://s21.postimg.org/h0gvt4u7b/sig.jpg[/img]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastrid View Post
    Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.

    Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
    Take your list of ample skills then apply it to a raid or boss situation. What then?
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The Internetz
    Posts
    1,930
    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    Take your list of ample skills then apply it to a raid or boss situation. What then?
    this^^^


    or how about a PVMP situation?

    creeps have skills (or innate abilities like ranged damage) that 100% negate 4/5 of those skills? and of the remaining 1/5, how many actually help you survive more as opposed to rooting/immobilizing you?


    I cant count the number on my hand because I cant "hold up" 0 fingers.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    149
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastrid View Post
    Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.

    Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
    1) I don't really agree with the OP - I believe our survival is fine at the moment (caveat: I dont PvMP)
    2) That said, the list above is pretty irrelevant:

    Rain of Thorns - useful for trash pulls in T2 tower runs - otherwise useless
    Distracting Shot - unspecified amount of de-threat, no stun on boss - pretty useless
    Dazing blow - doesn't work on boss
    Blindside - never use
    Low cut - never use
    Swift stroke - never use
    Str Stance - never use
    Fleetness - not useful anymore
    Needful Haste - always use, but doesn't really impact make me less squishy.
    Agile Rejoinder - never use, not in melee, too small of a heal
    Cry of hunt - useful. I like this addition (see #1 above)
    Press Onward - useless, never use
    Improve Str of whatever - useless, never use unless I want some cheap power regen
    Set Snare - pretty useless in pve
    Set trap - pretty useless in pve
    Cry of pred - forgot we had this skill.
    bard arrow - useful in extremely rare trash CC pulls

    For Pve, we are fine. landscape mobs are not a problem. Boss mobs aren't affected by most of the above, so they are irrelevant. The only thing we are still lacking is a reliable, measurable aggro dump.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000001d66e0/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #10
    Our surviability is paultry in comparison to other DPS classes. We gain more aggro than others, and die faster. A class isn't singular, and they are always in competition with each other for spots etc. Also, non of the above listed things do anything when you get hit for 10k by a boss with a threat book in endurance, having beneath noticed and used distracting shot.

    And my HS hit for more in 2008 in the moors than it does now. Turbine. What are you doing. Turbine stahp.
    Last edited by Stanimir; Jan 25 2013 at 01:09 AM.
    [center]Dum spiro, spero - Cicero
    Alexandrov, R9
    Stanimir, R7
    Kollontai, noob
    [/center]

  11. #11
    Hunter dps was nerfed back in U2 and has never had much survival. Now they ask if we want survival would we give up more dps? lol Laughable. I've had to learn to use my dps to survive. Every other class gets more dps and more survival when updated we have to chose. pfft.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/132130000000407a2/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Thought often gets in the way of truth. Pain clears the mind of thought.
    But all thoughts free our mind, and let the truth make itself known.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    212
    What about in PvP?

    Whereby you're all but dead if caught by surprise by a branded creep.

    Whereby all of the aforementioned CCs are all useless against said branded creep.

    Whereby due to the increase in creep DPS, our bubble is a joke and sometimes doesn't even go off.

    Whereby Press Onward has a ridiculous induction that is easily interruptible and isn't even scaled right.

    Whereby our channeled heal is really weak and by the time you've finished channeling you're pretty much dead.

    Whereby Agile Rejoinder is also a really weak heal.



    Even if caught by surprise, a champ has a fighting chance. And those bubbles are a heck of a lot better than ours.

    Even if caught by surprise, a burg has a fighting chance. And if they don't, they can always Touch and Go, hips or what have you.

    Even if caught by surprise most other class has a fighting chance, rks/minstrels have heals, LMs have debuffs and waterlore, cappies have last stand and make haste.

    My point is that hunters are not in a good place in terms of the moors. In PvE hunters are in a good place and I don't even have to give up DPS most of the time and I can even run with over 3k agility, capped crit, what have you. Unless the tank is sketchy in which case I swap out a few pieces in favour of a little bit more mitigations and morale, luckily enough I only run with kinnies. Even mediocre members of the other classes have a better chance than a mediocre hunter. Take note that I'm not saying that all hunters are bad and that no one can survive, when in a raid situation or when I'm the one catching them by surprise, I'm not helpless. But turbine should at least fix PO and our bubble, that would help with the moors situation a lot and not make up OP in PvE.
    Last edited by QueenArleth; Jan 25 2013 at 06:30 AM.
    [center][IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/dc62au.jpg[/IMG]
    [color=#FF00FF]Creeps: Highly Unimpressed, Babyasparagus, Schleichend | Blood Hand[/color]
    [color=#FF00FF]Freeps: Euphonious-1, Enthralling/-1/-2/-3, Mellifluous-1, Tantalizing-1, Xiexieni | Revolution[/color]
    [/center]

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    6,010
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastrid View Post
    Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.

    Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
    You and I hunt on the same server, and I would agree with you. However the melee is lacking, I mean even with rapid recovery slotted the damage I am getting from melee attacks isnt on par with what is needed. Im happy with everything as is but scouraging blow id like to see the barbed arrow requirement for additional damage removed and just make it a big hit melee, increase the cool down if necessary.

    But yes, basically hunters have a lot of tools at their disposal and I dont think we are far off as a lot of others seem to. The fact is melee is a reality for the pvp hunter and improved fleetness while nice dosent do a whole hell of a lot for my melee attacks. The only time I have gone bow master is if I know there are heals and its a well organized group. A lot of ridders play is pug, couple of dedicated PVP kins but not like it used to be.

    All that said, Options are good and the dev answer is a step in the right direction. As it stands now, I cant see how any Hunters out there (unless in an ideal raid with heals) arent traited 5 blue, critical eye and heightened senses.

  14. #14
    ...just as long as we are not suddenly happy if Press Onward is scaled. You know, something as stupid as people trying to convince others everything has been fixed - because we got CotH! Ermagerd!

    Scaling PO and presenting it as "Improved" version would be strangely similar nonsense. Think "Improved Split Shot". You fix this stuff, not treat as a valid basis for "even better" one. Please, don't mention "scaling PO" anywhere near class upgrades, bonuses, improvements etc. Same with BotR.

    If it gets scaled as a part of some one-time deal to "improve" class, then just wait for the next cap raise and observe PO not scaling. Again.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    38
    if i wanted to kite monsters for fun with a bow and arrow id play my ranger in everquest. they are actually set up for it, and with a druid partner its even better. i thought hunters were dps, i dont raid anymore because it gets dull in endurance with the whisper tome to avoid aggro and having the right set up with traits etc. then if i want to solo chaning everything. cant think of another game where i have to change not only gear but all skills/traits etc to play two ways, the gear maybe some parts but the whole make up of the class, nah
    Burn the books!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tongra View Post
    Rain of Thorns - useful for trash pulls in T2 tower runs - otherwise useless
    Distracting Shot - unspecified amount of de-threat, no stun on boss - pretty useless
    Dazing blow - doesn't work on boss
    Blindside - never use
    Low cut - never use
    Swift stroke - never use
    Str Stance - never use
    Fleetness - not useful anymore
    Needful Haste - always use, but doesn't really impact make me less squishy.
    Agile Rejoinder - never use, not in melee, too small of a heal
    Cry of hunt - useful. I like this addition (see #1 above)
    Press Onward - useless, never use
    Improve Str of whatever - useless, never use unless I want some cheap power regen
    Set Snare - pretty useless in pve
    Set trap - pretty useless in pve
    Cry of pred - forgot we had this skill.
    bard arrow - useful in extremely rare trash CC pulls
    This is the problem. Literally dozens of skills that are either useless or very situational. To that list you can add:

    Heartseeker - how did this not get in there?
    Endurance stance
    tracking skills - now everyone can see red dots.
    Burn hot - great, we finish boss fights 0.6 seconds earlier
    Camouflage - had to go into my character>skills to find this one.

    Plus, and utterly useless CC class trait - honestly, who is going to go for a hunter in CC when LM's do decent DPS and healing? ditch this and just give is a ranged tanking line, as that is a hunter's genuine secondary role in LotRo raids.
    Jennicide, Lore Master ~ Elcastor, Hunter
    Arielal, Minstrel ~ Anyawen, Guardian
    Renishii, Rune-Keeper

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennicide View Post
    ditch this and just give is a ranged tanking line, as that is a hunter's genuine secondary role in LotRo raids.
    Was

    ...


    Was



    I wonder if it's another time when Blue line - despite other, reasonable choices - is selected for some complete revamp described by three random words
    Last edited by Ferthcott; Jan 25 2013 at 03:52 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    PDX, OR
    Posts
    22
    The question was about survivability, thus I didn't list HS and the others, but Camo should have been mentioned. I was just in the moors on Riddermark for about 4 hours and I gained 34 KBs. I run into melee range all the time, both PvMP and PvE, in order to CC and charge out and kite, and I survive. I can drop-pull keeps if the group needs me to. In skraids, healers don't have to focus so much on keeping me alive and I hardly ever fall. I've also off-tanked lower on lvl bosses in skraids before as well. All of this is due to using the list of skills that I mentioned and by tactfully gear swapping on-the-fly as need be. Please do not flame me for simply stating that there -is- an arsenal of skills for us that have been provided. I understand that I can be blunt, and that I can be mistaken for intentionally trying to be rude. I'm really not, I'm honestly just trying to help people understand the class more. Most of the skills I listed are completely ignored right now by almost every other hunter I see. If my original post offended anyone, my apologies.
    Last edited by Vastrid; Jan 25 2013 at 07:00 PM.
    [img]http://s21.postimg.org/h0gvt4u7b/sig.jpg[/img]

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanimir View Post
    Our surviability is paultry in comparison to other DPS classes. We gain more aggro than others, and die faster. A class isn't singular, and they are always in competition with each other for spots etc.
    I think Stanimir is spot on.

    I'm generally pretty pleased with my hunter right now. He's in better shape than he's been since all the problems with aggro and survivability (the medium armour nerf) were introduced in RoI. At level 85 and with Hytbold armour, he's nowhere near as squishy as he was at level 75. Cry of the Hunter has made a big difference to survivability. I believe my hunter makes a valuable contribution to the raids organised by our raid alliance. I actually enjoy managing his aggro in group play so that I maximise the dps that he does without grabbing aggro from the tank.

    However, hunters have to compete for dps slots in pick up groups with other dps classes. I still see far too many pug leaders advertising for champions and turning down requests from my hunter to fill their dps slots. I believe that champions are still way too overpowered compared to the other dps classes, especially hunters. How does it make sense for champions to do as much damage as hunters, generate less aggro and get to wear heavy armour? I think the problem is not with hunters per se, but with the (lack of) balance between champions and hunters.

    My worry about Hoarsedev's question as to whether we'd be willing to trade damage for survivability is that we're already much less survivable than champions. So why should we trade damage for survivability so that we end up doing less damage and still being less survivable than champions?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c00000007b8ba/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  20. #20
    Is it too late to change the deal? How about we trade some of that "legendary 40m range", the same that drives so many people to mindlessly repeat various nonsense, for survivability? Surely, if it is "so potent", it trumps pure dps as you can also cc from the distance

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    808
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastrid View Post
    Rain of Thorns. Distracting Shot. Dazing blow. Blindside. Low Cut. Swift Stroke. Str Stance Quick Shot Slow. Improved Fleetness Spam. Needful Haste. Agile Rejoinder. Cry of the Hunter. Press Onward. Improved Str of the Earth. Set Snare. Set Trap. Cry of the Predator. Bard's Arrow.

    Seems to me like we have an ample set of skills to allow us to survive. Balance Gear and Traits for what you think you might be lacking in. Go Blue line, not Red. Kite, kite, kite.
    This person tried really hard by making that list, but I think that list is telling in the exactly opposite way of how unhelpful most of those are.

    Simple example : One of those Armor things in BG goes on random aggro, WHACK, your hunter is down 5k morale, the next hit will kill you. What do you do? In the order of the above list : rooting it won't work. Its immune to your distract and daze. Interrupt won't do a thing. Slowing it won't work. Fleetness won't help since even if you start running it's reach is farther than you can run in that one second. Rejoinder heal, assuming you already have the parry respond to get it off won't heal you enough. Its immune to your fear. The induction of Press Onward is too long, nor will it give you enough to survive a second hit. Ditto with SotE. Too late for traps. See above for daze/fear attempt.

    All the OTHER classes have something they can do at THIS point as an zomgbbqhelp skill. The hunter? DF, run 5 minutes back through the instance to rejoin team, or risk bugging the boss or mobs (which it OFTEN does), or if it is a boss battle gets locked out and watch the remainder of the fight from outside a gate or door.
    The only thing worse than a company making bad decisions, is the apologists who cheer it on.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyDena View Post
    This person tried really hard by making that list, but I think that list is telling in the exactly opposite way of how unhelpful most of those are.

    Simple example : One of those Armor things in BG goes on random aggro, WHACK, your hunter is down 5k morale, the next hit will kill you. What do you do? In the order of the above list : rooting it won't work. Its immune to your distract and daze. Interrupt won't do a thing. Slowing it won't work. Fleetness won't help since even if you start running it's reach is farther than you can run in that one second. Rejoinder heal, assuming you already have the parry respond to get it off won't heal you enough. Its immune to your fear. The induction of Press Onward is too long, nor will it give you enough to survive a second hit. Ditto with SotE. Too late for traps. See above for daze/fear attempt.

    All the OTHER classes have something they can do at THIS point as an zomgbbqhelp skill. The hunter? DF, run 5 minutes back through the instance to rejoin team, or risk bugging the boss or mobs (which it OFTEN does), or if it is a boss battle gets locked out and watch the remainder of the fight from outside a gate or door.
    So true, what can we do when the "survivability" skills we have don't work on instance boss's and some elite mobs and while in PvP those skills are made almost very ineffective due to audacity and pots/brands.

    I hope that turbine does do some changes on the choices we can make for out classes play style. Maybe our trait lines will be made more efficient.
    The end of an age has come and the wheel of time turns on. We will meet again when the wheel allows it.

  23. #23
    I hope "the change" will affect all other classes and they all will have to deal with "choice" hunters dealing with for long time.

    Hunter IMHO will stay in current place, other classes will change.
    I wonder how many "hunters-are-fine" posters will change their mind.

    p.s. my english is bad, i know.
    Gilrain: Keeslanaff - r12 RVR
    Withy: Keeslaff - r13 HNT, Cometodaddy - r9 BA, Warglaff -r7 STK

  24. #24
    All I need is an update to Beneath Notice to drop more aggro, perhaps some bump to the cooldown legacy (or new trait). Will gladly trade the paltry power restore for better/more frequent aggro reduction.

    Other than that, I'm pretty happy with PvE Hunters.

    I do not PvMP so can't really help there...but then I don't think Aggro management has much to do with survivability in the Moors. I do not envy the dev's job of balancing PvE with PvMP.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    171
    hunter savivability is laughable to say the least our damage is on par with champs ( champs can out dps us though ) and look at the savivability they get compared to us if i get jumped in the moors by a highly ranked creep i might aswell stand there and take the death our damage in the moors is laughable and with very little healing ability you have to stay grouped up

    cry of the hunter here is what ive noticed .........
    the stupid animation induction takes so long it dont always go off
    most creeps are imune to it by the time u need it due to using other cc skills during the fight or them branding
    the bubble can be one shoted by most creeps making it useless
    the run speed buff is useless aswell the second a ba or someone slows u it counters it and ur dead

    things that could be added to coth to make it more usefull

    bigger bubble that dosnt eat into our healthbar itself
    remove the useless animation that takes 4seconds to go off
    give hunters an incoming healing buff of 25% for 30 seconds (even in groups hunters are normally first target)
    enable the slow to be uncounterable
    as above with the run speed buff
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0220400000025e6a2/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload