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  1. #1

    A Newbees way of seeing PVMP for the first time

    So i have only been playing about a month now, I first got started from lack of PvE content..

    First week or so things looked really good, i mean it’s different but really good and it sort of looked like i found a new place to spend my time.
    I wondered HOW the hell to people keep complaining and moaning over PVMP I mean it’s really not so bad I mean sure being ganked sucks and the running back to action spots can be annoying, but it’s better than grinding BG the rest of the year.

    So anyway second & third week I started to notice the massive gaps between Freeps and Creeps, now this may be different but on my server the map is red about 80% of the time, fair enough creeps have better leadership in their raids they deserve it I guess.

    Now this is where I have a major problem I see creeps with all their buffs from the keeps and outposts that they have most of the time so normally there are a lot of creeps logged on to farm renown from freeps with the buffs they have so it’s a pretty easy life for them they don’t really have to work for a kill.

    Anyway getting to the point freeps are fighting their buts off most of the time to gain some heal way but are just constantly being farmed nonstop, NOW my main problem is that when we do end up with enough keeps and buffs the creeps simply just log off…. I mean &&& … its fine if freeps constantly are being farmed but if they are at any disadvantage they just mass log and we sit there with zero action.

    Now as I said I am a major noob and from what I have read the creep side have been ad a BIG disadvantage in the past and maybe this is why they have been given healers with up to 30k morale
    And op slows and stuns, that’s fine but my main problem is at rank 6 you start to wonder why you are still playing PVMP with people’s mentality being the way it is, why can’t buffs be equal and keep flips give you some other kind of buffs because at the moment from what I can see is that if creep players are not at a total advantage in the buffs game they don’t bother logging on, this seems to be slowly killing PVP play style, lots of my friends have gone over to keep side rolled a defiler cause they say it’s so easy to rank up, anyway I will log into the moors now and then but the level of frustration I get is making this type of play un-worthwhile.

    meh not sure if i am even making sens here but this is the kind of view i have had in the last month or so, im not sure if this is just my server or most servers i would love to know if its the same everywhere.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    50
    Sorry to tell you that you've came to pvp when it is the dark age of pvp. From inferring and hearing from ppl I know for some reason still play the game, they say that the pvp is not as great as it once was, which is what I saw coming, and y I dont play anymore. Hope you can find some medial joy in it tho, tho it will be hard to do.
    Guess who ? Founder and co-creator: http://gladdenhistory.wikispaces.com/

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SensBeard View Post
    fair enough creeps have better leadership in their raids they deserve it I guess.
    This is the whole point of it all.
    For years creeps had been underdogs and were just practice targets.
    Due to this the leadership on creepside had to use tactics, flanks, had to know skills on both sides from all classes.
    People learned too coordinate much better, had pop reflexes, knew when to use what cooldown rezzes etc.
    They needed to use positioning corectly use maps, flank people, know when push, and when to fall back.
    Drop pull, slow pull, etc etc etc.

    Freeps didn't need these things back then, i'm not saying they weren't or wouldn't have been usefull, but without them they could get the job done anyhow without using any kind of tactic, their leaders didn't need to be on the ball "AS MUCH" as creep leaders, not saying their knowledge is necesarily lesser, or anything near that, but it wasn't "VITAL" to survival.

    Now with Riders of Rohan creeps after years got boosted, some revamped, or tweaked.
    Now instead of being underdogs we're near equals in some aspects however creeps still have the great leadership
    Vetran creeps still know these tactics, now freeps need to learn them.
    Instead of learning them they rage quit and QQ about creeps.

    Creeps have "adapted and overcome" the Opness of the 65 burgs, the 75 mini's the 85 champions, freeps CAN do this, they just want gear to do the work instead of effort


    Note: talking about my server, all what's being said applies to what happened to me personally or what i've seen on my own server, not necesarily yours which may be diffrent
    Also this isn't talking about "ALL" players, mostly mayorities

    Ex
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Snowbourn
    Posts
    561
    What leadership do you need with ratio 2v1 or 3v1 (CvF)? With all the buffs?

    I tell you where is problem.

    Once, from RoR i was tired from be zerged (i wanted tried what everyone was saying - good points for healing etc), so i logged my defiller r5 and joined zerg, and in 2 minutes i did 500-600 commendations. - This amount i was doing 2-3 hours on my warden.

    And now its totally killed by lags, somehow creeps are better with this, - yesterday i couldnt do any gambits, bur that reaver i was sparring with, could attack me with no problems.

    Commander Liliam - the Warden

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    This is the whole point of it all.
    For years creeps had been underdogs and were just practice targets.
    Due to this the leadership on creepside had to use tactics, flanks, had to know skills on both sides from all classes.
    People learned too coordinate much better, had pop reflexes, knew when to use what cooldown rezzes etc.
    They needed to use positioning corectly use maps, flank people, know when push, and when to fall back.
    Drop pull, slow pull, etc etc etc.

    Freeps didn't need these things back then, i'm not saying they weren't or wouldn't have been usefull, but without them they could get the job done anyhow without using any kind of tactic, their leaders didn't need to be on the ball "AS MUCH" as creep leaders, not saying their knowledge is necesarily lesser, or anything near that, but it wasn't "VITAL" to survival.

    Now with Riders of Rohan creeps after years got boosted, some revamped, or tweaked.
    Now instead of being underdogs we're near equals in some aspects however creeps still have the great leadership
    Vetran creeps still know these tactics, now freeps need to learn them.
    Instead of learning them they rage quit and QQ about creeps.

    Creeps have "adapted and overcome" the Opness of the 65 burgs, the 75 mini's the 85 champions, freeps CAN do this, they just want gear to do the work instead of effort


    Note: talking about my server, all what's being said applies to what happened to me personally or what i've seen on my own server, not necesarily yours which may be diffrent
    Also this isn't talking about "ALL" players, mostly mayorities

    Ex
    Very good point and i have thought about all of this, the problem is not that, the problem creeps have still held onto oh we don’t have all the keeps better log off before freeps farm us mentality ... then log back on when people are sleeping to capture all the keeps in time to farm freeps the next day.

    And with the 3:1 ratio it’s just killing us, as a new player i Don’t see how this is keeping new players in the moors, sure if you’re a rank 1-5 player with limited audacity gear expect to be killed off quickly, but if you have worked yourself up to a full set of Aud gear with really good pvp Jewels and weapons and you get farmed by a player lower ranked with +6 keep buffs, well it just makes playing a waste.


    As i said our map is red 80% of the time so apart from the numbers in creeps the buffs they get will not allow for new people to enjoy pvmp, i just think it’s a real shame, because i have had some really good times (even loosing) when buffs are balanced.

    Haha i finally get why Moors players moan so much in game, I’d rather not be bitter about things i just wondered if it was only my server or just a general PvMP problem.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Czech Republic
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by SensBeard View Post
    And with the 3:1 ratio it’s just killing us, as a new player i Don’t see how this is keeping new players in the moors, sure if you’re a rank 1-5 player with limited audacity gear expect to be killed off quickly, but if you have worked yourself up to a full set of Aud gear with really good pvp Jewels and weapons and you get farmed by a player lower ranked with +6 keep buffs, well it just makes playing a waste.
    With those ratios, as a freep i wouldnt waste my time giving creeps any points and i would leave, because i have no chance of getting a kill. Well maybe a few, but whats the point of makin 2 kills, when all freeps wipe 5 times? Thats just feeding the creeps. And this goes vice versa too.
    JoeSO, owner of Joeso, Johndawn, Galald and many other toons.
    Proud member of Withywindle's Kinship Czech Royal Knights

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,242
    PvP's at its worst now (IMO) and I'm not even a freep.
    I can't really make out how it happened, but it feels worse than even RoI.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    466
    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    Awesome post
    This is so true...

    Try playing in both a freep raid and a creep raid (both lead by a "veteran") and you'll notice the difference.

    The freeps are still "Mount up, ride straight into them, pewpew abit". This worked well during the dark days of RoI PvP, and before that...

    The creeps still do their "Hide in the shadows, strike at the flank, reposition lots during the fight" even though it's now totally unecessary, because after so many years of that being the only way to survive, it's hard to change.

    To the OP:
    If you want to help improve the PvP on your server, the I'd suggest you roll a creep and join a raid. Play your creep for a few months, pay attention to everything the raid-leader is saying and doing. Then come back to Freep-side and lead some raids yourself, and don't be afraid to kick people if they don't follow you or do as you say, that's (sadly) the only way you can make a raid work.

    I've been in many freep-raids, where some actions taken by the leader has just stunned me. Full charge straight into their webs, leader RATing targets standing in blight (and melee classes actually running there to hit it getting completely nuked), trying to fight another raid inside an enemy controlled keep and not even moving out when the entire floor is covered with blight and webs. And the fact that most Freeps tend to only see the strengths of the creepside, while the big strengths that Freeps have, remain unused.
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8C8nLy2okg[/url] Saruman 6-man
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Haunt123 View Post
    I can't really make out how it happened, but it feels worse than even RoI.
    I can tell you exactly what happened. Incoming wall of text.

    RoI lead to creeps working together and zerging OP freeps, conversely it lead average freeps into being able to take on multiple creeps with ease due to the imbalance. Freeps all ran solo because they wanted to soak up renown with damage. Creeps grouped/zerged up to kill the freeps, these two distinct playstyles were the norm for quite a while.

    Flash forward to RoR. The bar has been raised quite a bit. Very good freeps are still out there, but we have seen a separation of the men from the boys. No longer can most freeps run solo and expect to face roll creeps r6+ anymore, but habits are hard to break. I feel it when I'm on my creep that we work together much better, despite affiliations, and out of group in comparison to when I'm on my freep.

    And rightfully so, Creep classes are shoehorned into roles. Yes a WL/Def can trait for DPS but they still retain useful healing/utility abilities while doing so. Freeps have to trait for improving the effectiveness of the overall side, which goes against their individual self interest. Only raiding kins or a strong PUG leader can achieve the necessary cohesion these days.

    Freeps need strong raid leaders and competent players willing to trait to their class strengths and maximize their effectiveness against the creep zerg. Leaders and players willing to give up the solo DPS mode are few and far between. Even if they trait correctly, then gear/LI's come into play. On my reaver I haven't touched my traits in months.

    And this doesn't even take into account the disparity/variance of usefulness of bad creeps vs. bad freeps. A bad creep has a higher floor than a bad freep. Yes freep ceiling is higher, but if only a small percentage of the overall player base is capable of reaching it, then that is irrelevant.

    Add on top of all that the overwhelming numbers imbalance and you have the RoR moors. Non prime-time Freeping isnt fun, and even worse that you pay for it. Not peak hours? Don't take an OP unless your prepared to get zerged. Stay away from GV unless you want to get zerged. Can't even gank lowbie questers without groups of creeps farming lootboxes, which leads to getting zerged.

    It takes two to tango, and one of the dancers pays actual cash while the other does not. While the changes overall have great balance on paper, the actual dynamics of server populations and the diaspora of serious PvP operators has lead to a serious problem. I fear we creeps may have opened Pandora's Box when getting our deserved changes given MMO market conditions.
    Creeps: Fissure R-12
    Freeps: Presdas R-9, Arcteus R9, Dainsleif-1 R4

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    6,073
    Stepping out of charecter for a minute...


    The major downside of RoR PvP is the devaluation of rank. It isnt just the farming its the large amount of infamy you can get in a day. I played for an hour last night walked away with 3k on one of the smaller server, and in the middle we PvE and grabbed our relic. This current condition has inflated ranks on creepside as literally in a week or two you can get R8. It was never like that you had to work for kills before RoR. RoR has brought us some very good things fist and foremost is balance between toons on both sides. Sadly there is a major flaw in that design as it assume a good balance.

    It assumes both sides have equal numbers, a good distribution of varied toon types, expirenced leadership and an understanding by each player as to what their toons specific role is. This hasnt panned out for freepside, Fissure has a pretty good explination as to why, I think he is right. You could roll out in ROI and before on a freep (remember the RK's at 65) and do very well, essentially destroy higher ranked and more expirenced creeps. Then ROI hit and the damage went off the charts I personally witnessed several very high ranked creeps getting rolled over and over by rabble.

    I think we are in a better place then we were before and i truly believe that RoR will breed better fights long term as roles get adjusted, players learn to work together in a group. Im seeing it now little by little, healers dispursed through the 6 man groups in freep raids. LM's working CC in raids more and more (less burning embers please) Saw a few mini's actualy healing and not in WS, even hunters in thier hybolt gear being bubbled and spam HOT so they can pump out DPS.

    We still need tweaks but overall its better then it was, at this point its about numbers as you look around you'll see freeps talking about being overwhelmed. Eventually the part time freeps who went off to run spiders or reavers will come back and the sides will even out again.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    This is the whole point of it all.
    For years creeps had been underdogs and were just practice targets.
    Due to this the leadership on creepside had to use tactics, flanks, had to know skills on both sides from all classes.
    People learned too coordinate much better, had pop reflexes, knew when to use what cooldown rezzes etc.
    They needed to use positioning corectly use maps, flank people, know when push, and when to fall back.
    Drop pull, slow pull, etc etc etc.

    Freeps didn't need these things back then, i'm not saying they weren't or wouldn't have been usefull, but without them they could get the job done anyhow without using any kind of tactic, their leaders didn't need to be on the ball "AS MUCH" as creep leaders, not saying their knowledge is necesarily lesser, or anything near that, but it wasn't "VITAL" to survival.

    Now with Riders of Rohan creeps after years got boosted, some revamped, or tweaked.
    Now instead of being underdogs we're near equals in some aspects however creeps still have the great leadership
    Vetran creeps still know these tactics, now freeps need to learn them.
    Instead of learning them they rage quit and QQ about creeps.

    Creeps have "adapted and overcome" the Opness of the 65 burgs, the 75 mini's the 85 champions, freeps CAN do this, they just want gear to do the work instead of effort


    Note: talking about my server, all what's being said applies to what happened to me personally or what i've seen on my own server, not necesarily yours which may be diffrent
    Also this isn't talking about "ALL" players, mostly mayorities

    Ex
    So in ROI when freeps were called OP it was because they were over powered
    and in ROR when creeps are called OP it's because freeps need to L2P/adapt and stop being lazy from being OP for so long.

    Am I reading this wrong, or is this just another "freeps need to l2p/adapt" post?
    Last edited by Armitas; Jan 18 2013 at 09:16 AM.
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    221
    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    This is the whole point of it all.
    For years creeps had been underdogs and were just practice targets.
    Due to this the leadership on creepside had to use tactics, flanks, had to know skills on both sides from all classes.
    People learned too coordinate much better, had pop reflexes, knew when to use what cooldown rezzes etc.
    They needed to use positioning corectly use maps, flank people, know when push, and when to fall back.
    Drop pull, slow pull, etc etc etc.

    Freeps didn't need these things back then, i'm not saying they weren't or wouldn't have been usefull, but without them they could get the job done anyhow without using any kind of tactic, their leaders didn't need to be on the ball "AS MUCH" as creep leaders, not saying their knowledge is necesarily lesser, or anything near that, but it wasn't "VITAL" to survival.

    Now with Riders of Rohan creeps after years got boosted, some revamped, or tweaked.
    Now instead of being underdogs we're near equals in some aspects however creeps still have the great leadership
    Vetran creeps still know these tactics, now freeps need to learn them.
    Instead of learning them they rage quit and QQ about creeps.

    Creeps have "adapted and overcome" the Opness of the 65 burgs, the 75 mini's the 85 champions, freeps CAN do this, they just want gear to do the work instead of effort


    Note: talking about my server, all what's being said applies to what happened to me personally or what i've seen on my own server, not necesarily yours which may be diffrent
    Also this isn't talking about "ALL" players, mostly mayorities

    Ex
    Allowing for differences of server I didn't see this at all in ROI. ALL the main creep leaders quit or refused to form raids. Those that did come on would sit in grams and whine in OOC about how hard life was. Then GW2 came out and they all went there. And then game back to sit in grams again a couple weeks later.

    Seeing the same thing now. At the start of ROR until recently creep leaders all back with huge swarms of out of group creeps around their groups and raids. Now those flippers have gotten bored with rank farming at GV camps and have either left or returned to freepside and now those creep leaders are gone again.

    Seems like something similar is alluded to with the OP's post cause he mentions that creeps log when they lose their buffs so I'm not sure how any of this can be attributed to good leadership creepside that magically grew out of being nerfed during ROI.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    331
    Most of what you said OP is true.

    Unfortunately you started pvping in the worst stretch I've seen the moors in. I started pvping right before moria came about, and I can honestly say I'd rather have that god awful 8 month stretch of terrible pvp and no new content during mirkwood over this bs they call the moors now.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wartober View Post
    Allowing for differences of server I didn't see this at all in ROI. ALL the main creep leaders quit or refused to form raids. Those that did come on would sit in grams and whine in OOC about how hard life was. Then GW2 came out and they all went there. And then game back to sit in grams again a couple weeks later.
    This post is the reason why at the end of mine i stated that my opinions are based on what happens on my own server and may not apply to yours.
    In my server the main creep leaders back from ROI are still playing the game now their on actually way less then before, since organized raids aren't really needed due to the lack of organized freeps or their leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    So in ROI when freeps were called OP it was because they were over powered
    and in ROR when creeps are called OP it's because freeps need to L2P/adapt and stop being lazy from being OP for so long.

    Am I reading this wrong, or is this just another "freeps need to l2p/adapt" post?
    Well this is kinda my bad, i forgot my opinion about that particular subject was mencioned in "The final straw" thread on this part of the forum.
    To answer what you just said this is part of my post in the thread(the rest is irrelevent in this answer)

    Quote Originally Posted by MTminas View Post
    So what do you guys think is OP about certain creep classes?
    The fact that BA's a "DPS" class was able to do a burst damage rotation back at 75? which mainly involved using 3 skills in a row to deal out a beating, however said class was pretty easy to take down solo....

    Now it's reavers and spiders? why because reavers actually do damage now? because spiders don't roll over and die anymore?
    Oh noes a reflect skill, i don't know anything else but to trow more dps at it, What should i do OMG so OP..... ever heared of kiting and CC? the same can be said for wrath.....

    I wonder how many people talking here, actually fought burgs at 65, fought mini's at 75 and are fighting champions at 85, not to mention the water-lore spamming LM's or the RK full heals and bubbles....

    I've fought on both sides, i still am, i find the moors more balanced then ever, freeps staying at gv, wargs calling out solo's and zergs zerging solo's isn't turbine fault, it's the playerbase that is currently on the moors that makes this happen.

    Ex
    There is still a big difference between something that can kill, and something that can kill while being near unkillable, the latter is OP imo and the opinion of most creeps, as for spiders since i play them, i've lost in 1V1's against champions and burgs having 2B2R OP's, depends on their skill level

    Ex
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