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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The part that's rubbish is you making stuff up and then trying to pretend it's in some way valid even though it's quite plainly not the sort of thing Tolkien would ever have written about. As he has it, it's almost inevitably the men who go off to fight, with women only doing so by rare exception or not at all, in some cases. That's the way it is for everyone, in the books, on either side of the conflict - so where's this sudden exception for Orcs come from? You've just pulled that out of thin air, and that's putting it politely.
    This would be a good time for one of those rare exceptions. We already know that Tolkien considered it a good time for a exception, otherwise how could Eowyn have gone to war and engaged the enemy during this time?

    How many events in Middle Earth are rarer (or more dire) than a supernatural power strongly threatening to conquer all of Middle Earth in the immediate future? An event so desperate, that Frodo was sent into Mordor with the ring to destroy it.

    The idea of (maybe) doubling available fighting forces should have occurred to Sauron. I know the thought occurred to me. Since Tolkien himself has set the precedent with an exception during this period, there is no reason to think that the Orcs could not follow suit.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    Still dodging the question? Is there some reason that people here should not know whether you speak for the truth or whether you just state opinions? The simple truth (as stated by others) is that asserting something to be true requires a person to prove it. Is this why you won’t answer the question? Do you only require proof from other people and not require it from yourself? If so, then I am calling you on BS.
    And the trolling continues...

    As I already said, Tolkien never, ever includes armies of female warriors of any description. That's a fact. Your version clashes with that, it's demonstrably unlike anything Tolkien ever came up with himself. And what have you got to contend with that? Nothing, so instead you keep posting these feeble attempts at misdirection.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    This would be a good time for one of those rare exceptions. We already know that Tolkien considered it a good time for a exception, otherwise how could Eowyn have gone to war and engaged the enemy during this time?
    The exceptions are individuals, not whole armies.

    How many events in Middle Earth are rarer (or more dire) than a supernatural power strongly threatening to conquer all of Middle Earth in the immediate future? An event so desperate, that Frodo was sent into Mordor with the ring to destroy it.
    Sauron was in a truly desperate situation towards the end of the War of the Last Alliance and nothing like that happened. He wasn't short of manpower at the time of the War of the Ring: as well as great numbers of Orcs, Trolls and spell-enslaved beasts he'd got all those Men from the East and South at his command. At that time, it was the Free Peoples who were desperate, not him.

    The idea of (maybe) doubling available fighting forces should have occurred to Sauron. I know the thought occurred to me. Since Tolkien himself has set the precedent with an exception during this period, there is no reason to think that the Orcs could not follow suit.
    That comparison is entirely bogus, jumping from a singular exception to something so huge. It doesn't matter that the thought occurred to you, it evidently never occurred to Tolkien. Warriors in his tales are almost universally male, so much so that there's no way you can justify a sudden exception to have lots of women taking up arms, even if they're Orcs. I can't put it any plainer than this: you need to take account of the author's take on things, not just your own.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And the trolling continues...

    As I already said, Tolkien never, ever includes armies of female warriors of any description. That's a fact. Your version clashes with that, it's demonstrably unlike anything Tolkien ever came up with himself. And what have you got to contend with that? Nothing, so instead you keep posting these feeble attempts at misdirection.
    This does seem to be the last remaining argument that you have. We have systematically eliminated all of the other ones that can I remember you using.

    I far as I know he does not. What could some of the possible reasons be for that? Could one of them be that Tolkien knew very little about the Orc-females? (by his own admission)

    So unless you can prove to me that Sauron was not training many Orc-women for fighting inside Mordor and that they were not going to war, I see no reason to change my opinion about my original post where I speculated on these two ideas.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The exceptions are individuals, not whole armies.


    Sauron was in a truly desperate situation towards the end of the War of the Last Alliance and nothing like that happened. He wasn't short of manpower at the time of the War of the Ring: as well as great numbers of Orcs, Trolls and spell-enslaved beasts he'd got all those Men from the East and South at his command. At that time, it was the Free Peoples who were desperate, not him.


    That comparison is entirely bogus, jumping from a singular exception to something so huge. It doesn't matter that the thought occurred to you, it evidently never occurred to Tolkien. Warriors in his tales are almost universally male, so much so that there's no way you can justify a sudden exception to have lots of women taking up arms, even if they're Orcs. I can't put it any plainer than this: you need to take account of the author's take on things, not just your own.
    These are all fine ideas and worthy of consideration. However they are not enough to make me change my ideas on my opinions. They are not proof that Sauron could not have been training Orc-women to go to war. So I will have to consider them to be unproven opinions in that context. Thank you for posting your ideas though. I am sure that some people will consider them to be note-worthy.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    This does seem to be the last remaining argument that you have. We have systematically eliminated all of the other ones that can I remember you using.
    Troll, troll, troll away...

    I far as I know he does not. What could some of the possible reasons be for that? Could one of them be that Tolkien knew very little about the Orc-females? (by his own admission)
    The reason for it is that in the tales, the Orcs people encountered were soldiers in the service of evil lords, as Tolkien put it, and in consequence they were male. (Just like everybody else's warriors were male, with only rare exceptions). What little was known about was the Orcs' home life, including what their women were like, because people just didn't run into them: Orc-women weren't encountered because they weren't out fighting like the male Orcs were, simple as that. And given that the role the Orcs play is as the soldiery of the Enemy, someone for the good guys to have to fight, their women naturally don't feature. (Just as women in general play a very limited role in LOTR, being all but invisible a lot of the time).

    So unless you can prove to me that Sauron was not training many Orc-women for fighting inside Mordor and that they were not going to war, I see no reason to change my opinion about my original post where I speculated on these two ideas.
    And we're back to the same old nonsense, with you utterly ignoring how Tolkien writes. Speculation that takes no account of the author's own choices is truly worthless. Like I said before, you might as well imagine them riding pink flamingos too because while you're engaging in rootless, idle flights of fancy you might as well go all out.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Troll, troll, troll away...


    The reason for it is that in the tales, the Orcs people encountered were soldiers in the service of evil lords, as Tolkien put it, and in consequence they were male. (Just like everybody else's warriors were male, with only rare exceptions). What little was known about was the Orcs' home life, including what their women were like, because people just didn't run into them: Orc-women weren't encountered because they weren't out fighting like the male Orcs were, simple as that. And given that the role the Orcs play is as the soldiery of the Enemy, someone for the good guys to have to fight, their women naturally don't feature. (Just as women in general play a very limited role in LOTR, being all but invisible a lot of the time).


    And we're back to the same old nonsense, with you utterly ignoring how Tolkien writes. Speculation that takes no account of the author's own choices is truly worthless. Like I said before, you might as well imagine them riding pink flamingos too because while you're engaging in rootless, idle flights of fancy you might as well go all out.

    These are all nice ideas, but they do not prove your assertion that Sauron could not have schooled many Orc-females in the art of fighting so that they could go to war.

    I have already repeatedly addressed these arguments of yours in posts: 29, 35, 37, 39, 47, 50, 51 and 54 of this thread. Have you more to posit or is this the sum total of your proof?

    Edit: also posts: 100, 102, (space left intentionally blank for future use)
    Last edited by RKL; Mar 01 2013 at 03:24 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    These are all nice ideas, but they do not prove your assertion that Sauron could not have schooled many Orc-females in the art of fighting so that they could go to war.
    It's abundantly evident from what Tolkien says that he didn't think of Orc-women as warriors, in just the same way that with only the rarest of exceptions, he didn't see anybody's womenfolk as warriors. However one might otherwise imagine Orc-women we know from what he said that he only thought of them, when prompted, as being off in the background somewhere, existing but playing no part in the tales because they didn't go to war. It was the male Orcs who did the fighting, just as everybody else's warriors were almost inevitably male. That's simply the way he wrote, and nothing you can say will change that.

    The whole way through, all you've been doing is engaging in special pleading, as if Tolkien would really have changed the habits of a lifetime and made such an odd exception in this one case. As I pointed out earlier, there is no valid reason to assume such an exception, still less to start calling it likely or probable.

    I'm also calling shenanigans here because you're demanding that I prove a negative. You're the one making wild conjectures, so it's up to you to make a valid case.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I'm also calling shenanigans here because you're demanding that I prove a negative. You're the one making wild conjectures, so it's up to you to make a valid case.
    Not likely to happen - the sig tells the tale.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's abundantly evident from what Tolkien says that he didn't think of Orc-women as warriors, in just the same way that with only the rarest of exceptions, he didn't see anybody's womenfolk as warriors. However one might otherwise imagine Orc-women we know from what he said that he only thought of them, when prompted, as being off in the background somewhere, existing but playing no part in the tales because they didn't go to war. It was the male Orcs who did the fighting, just as everybody else's warriors were almost inevitably male. That's simply the way he wrote, and nothing you can say will change that.

    The whole way through, all you've been doing is engaging in special pleading, as if Tolkien would really have changed the habits of a lifetime and made such an odd exception in this one case. As I pointed out earlier, there is no valid reason to assume such an exception, still less to start calling it likely or probable.

    I'm also calling shenanigans here because you're demanding that I prove a negative. You're the one making wild conjectures, so it's up to you to make a valid case.
    I already addressed these points earlier in the thread. See post #57 for the post numbers.

    I am not demanding anything. I have simply stated that you have not proven your assertion. If you are unable/unwilling to do so, then it is no skin off of my nose. Personally, I don’t think you can, but that is merely an unproven opinion of mine.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    Not likely to happen - the sig tells the tale.
    Which part of my sig don’t you like?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    I already addressed these points earlier in the thread. See post #57 for the post numbers.
    You haven't even come close to addressing that. All you've done is to deliberately ignore what Tolkien says and how he writes in favour of your own nonsense.

    I am not demanding anything. I have simply stated that you have not proven your assertion. If you are unable/unwilling to do so, then it is no skin off of my nose. Personally, I don’t think you can, but that is merely an unproven opinion of mine.
    Trolling, pure and simple.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You haven't even come close to addressing that. All you've done is to deliberately ignore what Tolkien says and how he writes in favour of your own nonsense.


    Trolling, pure and simple.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I will not try to talk you out of it.

    I think you need another break from posting; to regroup.

  14. #64
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    this is a productive topic
    A spaceship from another star / They ask me where all the people are
    I tell them I'm the only one / There was a war, but I must have won

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    I think you need another break from posting; to regroup.
    I think you need to stop posting on lore topics, period, unless you can break this habit you have of making stuff up wholesale while second-guessing the author. Do you know what the tagline on this sub-forum says? "Discuss the Professor and the lore of Middle-earth here!", not "Ignore the Professor and make up your own version".

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I think you need to stop posting on lore topics, period, unless you can break this habit you have of making stuff up wholesale while second-guessing the author. Do you know what the tagline on this sub-forum says? "Discuss the Professor and the lore of Middle-earth here!", not "Ignore the Professor and make up your own version".
    Thanks for the advice: I will take it under advisement and get back to you when I make a decision on the matter.

  17. #67
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    I really can't imagine why anyone is still trying to argue the point with RKL, by his logic if you can't prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist, that alone is pretty strong evidence the he does.

    Hopefully he'll run out of hot air soon and go troll some other forum, we can only hope.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    I really can't imagine why anyone is still trying to argue the point with RKL, by his logic if you can't prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist, that alone is pretty strong evidence the he does.

    Hopefully he'll run out of hot air soon and go troll some other forum, we can only hope.
    Surprisingly enough, you have raised a good point. Why does anyone argue with anyone else?

    What are the real motivations behind this exchange between Rad and I? If one was to look back in the thread, one would see that it started in post #25. I was told at this time that I could not say something, because what I said was pure speculation based on nothing. I then responded with: yes, I can say that. The tone of the meeting was set right there at the beginning and has not varied since. After that, the participants exchanged reasons why they felt the way that they do. It soon became apparent that neither side was going to change their opinion. It then became a battle of logic. So, why do the participants persist?

    What are the motivations behind the two participants? Why does one person feel that they can freely speculate and why does another person feel that other peoples’ speculations must fall within specific boundaries that they themselves set? It is an interesting issue and has deep social and psychological implications.
    Last edited by RKL; Feb 28 2013 at 01:20 AM.

  19. #69
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    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelwyn View Post
    I have been researching this quote. It is written to a Mrs. Munby. I cannot find the letter posted with its full content. Does anyone have a link? It is hard to get a clear idea of what JRR was trying to say from just a snippet.
    You should read this:

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Mrs._...1_October_1963

    ...taking note of what it says about publication (i.e. it's apparently not been published in full) and the context (a bunch of questions asked by Mrs Munby's son).

  21. #71
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    a very logical question, and a couple of sad facts:

    1) Lore and logic are prevalent when suiting the developers and the budget with which things operate within Turbine. Even time (Soon TM) fallls under this category. Amuse yourself by examples such as dwarves and mounted combat to provide yourself with an accute understanding of just what this implies;

    2) Even when Lore and logic -may- be prevalent, always count on the possibility of forum dwellers (aka lore hippies as and when they see it fit) discounting both or either of them, in any a way, when their views are different, or when yours dictates a world larger than what they are mentally capable of envisioning.

    3) Some very nasty people in a continent far, far away had some very set and solid things to say regarding races, genders and possible alterations of all matters related to them. It is for example why you may only 'roll' one of the 'bad guys' within PvMP, rather than in both aspects of the game. Turbine developers have no say whatsoever regarding this.

    The above are stated as mere (if sad) facts. Refrain from dumping your angst in the form of negative reputation on me, as we all know they stand.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelwyn View Post
    I read that page before during research. That was a conclusion I came to as well. The full letter was never published. I was hoping someone had done so somewhere. I saw on some sites that pages were shown in small pictures. I thought maybe someone had blown them up and written them down. Maybe we will never know what JRR was saying or what the original question was that the lady’s son asked. It is not an important thing anyway. I was just curious because of all the doubt this forum has generate about the meaning of the snipet.
    With respect, it seems obvious to me what he's saying. You can intuit the question from the reply: it'd presumably have been some variation on the theme of where Orcs come from. Back before the Sil was published, people had loads of questions about LOTR's background, things we now take for granted. It's the Sil that tells us how Orcs bred and multiplied ('after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar'), which agrees with what Tolkien says in that letter, that there must have been Orc-women. They're never so much as mentioned in the tales (only implied, at best, and that only in the Sil), and the reason for that is that as he says, Orcs appear in the tales as the soldiery of 'evil lords'. We never get to see Orcs 'at home' because that was never germane to the limited role he had in mind for them as the Enemy's grunts.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's abundantly evident from what Tolkien says that he didn't think of Orc-women as warriors, in just the same way that with only the rarest of exceptions, he didn't see anybody's womenfolk as warriors. However one might otherwise imagine Orc-women we know from what he said that he only thought of them, when prompted, as being off in the background somewhere, existing but playing no part in the tales because they didn't go to war. It was the male Orcs who did the fighting, just as everybody else's warriors were almost inevitably male. That's simply the way he wrote, and nothing you can say will change that.

    The whole way through, all you've been doing is engaging in special pleading, as if Tolkien would really have changed the habits of a lifetime and made such an odd exception in this one case. As I pointed out earlier, there is no valid reason to assume such an exception, still less to start calling it likely or probable.

    I'm also calling shenanigans here because you're demanding that I prove a negative. You're the one making wild conjectures, so it's up to you to make a valid case.
    As this get off topic, it is incorrect & doesnt make any sence. Next time you want to say that there are no female warriors, look to all sides & start running before to get the 1st word out. Dont let Arwen catch you or she will 1-hit kill you. LOL

    ~ Check my Kinship at Gladden server: The Fate of Middle Earth ~

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    As this get off topic, it is incorrect & doesnt make any sence. Next time you want to say that there are no female warriors, look to all sides & start running before to get the 1st word out. Dont let Arwen catch you or she will 1-hit kill you. LOL
    You're having a 'movie moment' there: in the books, the sum total of Arwen's contribution to the war effort was to embroider a really nifty war-banner for Aragorn. No riding around on a big white horse (in the book that belonged to the Elf who 'really' met up with them, a guy called Glorfindel), no heroically keeping Frodo out of the clutches of the Ring-wraiths, no summoning the flood that takes out the Ring-wraiths either (in the book it was Elrond who did that, with some help from Gandalf).

    In any case, I didn't say there were no female warriors. What I did say is that the way Tolkien wrote, they were rare exceptions and that's fair enough, as he wasn't writing a comic-book.

    Oh, and by the way: you should be running

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpiefood View Post
    There is at least one female orc in The Return of The King:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_RgNLI1rYY

    The female orc is the one who says "catapults!". Just listen to her voice, that is a woman.

    EDIT: And I strongly believe that this goblin from Moria is also a female:

    Just look at those beautiful eyes, stunning!
    (:
    sorry...*anything* from the movies is just bogus. PJ is an idiot.

 

 
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