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  1. #1
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    Raid-Configured Bow?

    I think I'm missing something vital. I'm a noob at raids, for one reason or another just haven't done a lot of them. I've been trying to get in on the level 85 raids that drop the Tarnished Symbols.

    I know that one big problem for Hunters in raids is stealing aggro from the tanks. I thought if I built a bow to minimize threat, that would be a big help. So, I put together this third-ager. But, in the one raid I got in with this bow, I kept stealing aggro anyway, and getting pounded.

    What am I not seeing or understanding?
    [SIZE=2][B][I]Concerts, Crafting, Cosmetics, Horse Races, Chicken Runs, Role Play, Exploration, Screenshots, Video Capture, ... Oh, yeah, and some fighting the forces of evil bent on world domination and tyranny. [/I][/B][/SIZE]

  2. #2
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    There are varying views about this subject. It's by no means a settled issue, so don't feel too bad that you feel a bit out-to-sea. From my perspective, the true value of threat reducing legacies has never been defined in a clear enough way to trust them. As you said, in practice, it doesn't seem to do a great deal to help, which is unfortunate. Perhaps, as with many things in the game, the scaling as we raise the level cap has not held up.

    I can tell you that for my part, when I pug BG Durch, I just stay in Endurance Stance for the first half of the armor guardians' health at the beginning and just before Durch. Sometimes I'll switch over to Precision, and sometimes I won't. The difference in DPS is not really all that great at that point. Maybe the mob dies 2 seconds earlier, but whatever.

    I find that running in Endurance both helps me keep my power up and lets me pretty much DPS as fast as I want without fear of pulling agro, as long as I fire off a few QS before really getting started. Beneath Notice and Distracting Shot are my safety net if the mob targets me. I'll pop them both, hit a few more QS and then go back to pew pewing. I don't bother using the -threat book, another unclear and seemingly weak bonus. The one drawback from playing this way is the lack of Focus pips that you usually generate from Precision stance. This ends up forcing me to insert more QS than I would normally, but that just equals a safer -threat situation. When the raid leader says full DPS, then obviously I'll switch to Precision, blow all my CDs, etc. but I don't generally feel the need to just go crazy and unleash fury 100% of the time.

    That's just my feeling anyway.
    Last edited by WiltenRose; Jan 17 2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Yeah, sounds more like confusion over the mechanics of Durchest than too much damage.

    Melee classes, mainly tanks, will get a debuff to perceived threat frequently in this fight, leaving a ranged person to take the aggro when that happens. (In PUG groups, the kite strategy seems to be more popular than the way our group does it.) Which is not entirely bad, so long as you are aware when he changes targets so you can start running around in circles. If you're getting pounded, just pay attention and scamper away from him. The toughest part is when you're killing an add and he swaps aggro to a target who doesn't have him targeted to know that he's switching.

    When I know I'm #2 on Durchest's list (running that strat), I tend to not switch over to killing the add, since I like to know when he's coming for me. And if I don't swap off, I solidify the #2 spot more so nobody else gets surprised by moving up to #2 unexpectedly.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  4. #4
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    I really would not ever recommend putting legacies on a bow to lessen the amount of threat you get.

    As Hunters we have a few tools to use to reduce our threat:

    1) Endurance Stance + Quickshot. Quickshot in Endurance stance will allow you to lower your aggro. The "blue feathers" above a mob's head whenever you do this combo lets you know the threat drop is being applied. Remember though - you can still crit on quick shot so the damage from the crit might negate it sometimes.

    2) Distracting Shot. It now has a threat reduction component to it. If you're on a single boss it's a good idea to toss this in every once in a while. Make a bow with a maxed cooldown reduction legacy for this skill and swap it in whenever you use the skill.

    3) Your threat reduction Tome.

    4) You can always just hold off damage at the start of the fight.

    5) Swap out some of your crit/agility gear for vit/morale gear. Lowers your dps (and therefore your threat) but will make you more survivable and less of a burden on healers.


    For bow legacies I would recommend:

    Quick Shot Critical Chance
    Induction Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Power Cost

    Legacy of Agility
    Barbed Arrow Bleed Damage
    Burn Hot Damage

    If you're a red line hunter you may want to swap in Heartseeker Damage or something like that. I relegate that to a swap-in bow though.

    I've posted some examples of bows when Riders of Rohan was in beta, you can check them out here:

    Thread: Riders of Rohan - Hunter Legendary Weapons


    I hope this helps you out in your decisions.
    Chromite/Grumbletocks/Grumbletunes/Schrade on Landroval, Chromite on Arkenstone, Appendage on Brandywine

  5. #5
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    Get the legacy which reduces the cool down for Beneath Notice. I used the wrong skill name in my original post, sorry for any confusion

    As for BG, as was previously stated the boss puts a debuff on the main tank which causes him to produce less and less aggro (up to 70% for 45 seconds I think). That's why you need 2 tanks for Durch (although I've seen people talk about using an off-tank - champ I think). When the main tank gets the debuff the other tank should be able to get Durch. You will also need a 3rd tank (or off-tank) for the adds. That being said none of these things will necessarily prevent you from grabbing aggro, so if you do pop Beneath Notice and run towards a tank.... then once you are no longer 'it' start using QS for a bit.
    Last edited by Ullr_of_Aesir; Jan 18 2013 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Used wrong skill name

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ullr_of_Aesir View Post
    Get the legacy which reduces the cool down for Needful Haste.
    That's a Main-Hand Weapon legacy, not a bow/crossbow legacy.

    As for BG, as was previously stated the boss puts a debuff on the main tank which causes him to produce less and less aggro (up to 70% for 45 seconds I think). That's why you need 2 tanks for Durch (although I've seen people talk about using an off-tank - champ I think). When the main tank gets the debuff the other tank should be able to get Durch. You will also need a 3rd tank (or off-tank) for the adds. That being said none of these things will necessarily prevent you from grabbing aggro, so if you do pop Needful Haste and run.... then once you are no longer 'it' start using QS for a bit.
    The debuff gets applied to the first few people on the threat list. (Just 3 people). As long as those three people stay in front of Durchest during the cleaves then the tank should not get the debuff. That's why it's not a good idea for the tank to force taunt at the start of a Durchest fight. Let Durchest get a cleave or two off to apply the debuff to people while the tank is doing normal taunts.

    Also, if the tank force-taunts and gets aggro of the add during the Durchest fight then they can sometimes get a debuff called "Gaining Threat" which can sometimes counteract the effects of the Insignificance debuff from Durchest.

    Also some of the armors leading to durchest will put a Non-Threatening debuff on the tank (Usually the ones that try to stun you) and at that point the tank should force taunt those armors to counteract that debuff.
    Chromite/Grumbletocks/Grumbletunes/Schrade on Landroval, Chromite on Arkenstone, Appendage on Brandywine

  7. #7
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    Thanks, folks!

    Certainly some things to think about and try with another bow... Looks like this one is destined for a trip to the Relic Master. :-)

    It can be frustrating for those of us who don't raid often to understand a lot of this. The descriptions of the legacies for threat reduction made me believe this would be a good working concept. Now, I'm wiser.

    Again, thanks for all the info!
    [SIZE=2][B][I]Concerts, Crafting, Cosmetics, Horse Races, Chicken Runs, Role Play, Exploration, Screenshots, Video Capture, ... Oh, yeah, and some fighting the forces of evil bent on world domination and tyranny. [/I][/B][/SIZE]

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ullr_of_Aesir View Post
    Get the legacy which reduces the cool down for Needful Haste.

    That being said none of these things will necessarily prevent you from grabbing aggro, so if you do pop Needful Haste and run.... then once you are no longer 'it' start using QS for a bit.
    Ummmmm one problem, how does needful haste helps you run around? needful haste reduces the inductions of SB, barb, and QS and -25%AD.

    I think you mean to go 5 blue and trait up improve fleetness for the +10% run speed.

  9. #9
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    Using threat reduction legacies is not worth it imo...
    same with burn hot/heartseeker legacies. Just get a switch bow for burn hot
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lioheart View Post
    Ummmmm one problem, how does needful haste helps you run around? needful haste reduces the inductions of SB, barb, and QS and -25%AD.

    I think you mean to go 5 blue and trait up improve fleetness for the +10% run speed.
    ug - sorry, I used the wrong skill name. I meant [skill]Beneath Notice[/skill]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw
    That's a Main-Hand Weapon legacy, not a bow/crossbow legacy.
    True, I should have said that (then again I used the wrong skill name, so probably can't expect me to say that ), my point was to use the [skill]Beneath Notice[/skill] when you get aggro and use this to reduce the cool off.
    Last edited by Ullr_of_Aesir; Jan 18 2013 at 01:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Two things that Hunters are known for: Stealing aggro and burning thru Power.

    Now any hunter worth his salt knows how to manage both. And sometimes you get into a situation where no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try, the boss just wants to pound on a Hunter. However we're talking about lowering overall aggro and when every little bit counts, this is one thing, to me at least, seems to get over looked.

    Who can name me the buff Captains hand out like candy?

    Now, this is not a complaint against Captains, it's a complaint to us Hunters. This is one more item in the arsenal of threat management tools we have at our disposal.

    I'm perfectly happy to have the extra crit, but it's just funny when your in a raid and everyone knows what Hunters can do, what they are famous/infamous for, that *this* is the buff we're given without a second thought.

    Captains seem overly happy about being able to grant everyone a really high Crit buff. It seems they go to great lengths to get that crit buff staggeringly high. Yet I'd prefer Focus, which is apparently not on most captains ToDo list.

    I much prefer ICPR to crit.

    Anyway, just one more thing to help reduce threat gen.

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  12. #12
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    Any decent captain asks if anyone wants anything other than crit before they buff, in my experience. And i agree there are times when you know you'd prefer focus, just ask for it it's your choice.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bregyn View Post
    Any decent captain asks if anyone wants anything other than crit before they buff, in my experience. And i agree there are times when you know you'd prefer focus, just ask for it it's your choice.
    Agreed. Just saying that it's funny that everyone complains about Hunters and aggro, and yet it's rare to find a Captain that has a decent focus buff

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  14. #14
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    Wow... not sure I would agree with all this advice above...

    First off, if you are serious about being a raid hunter, you will want to focus on just four things:

    1) DPS
    2) DPS
    3) DPS
    4) Tactical mitigation
    5) Practice (I lied, there are 5 things)

    To achieve max DPS, you want to focus on the following:
    - Critical rating
    - Physical mastery

    Fortunately, both are increased by our main stat: agility. Stack agility. You will want to have enough crit rating from your agility and equipment that you will be capped at 25% once you get cappy buffs. You do not want more, because that means you are sacrificing Physical Mastery. Having 25% crit unbuffed for a solo hunter is great. A raid hunter is missing out on another stat.
    Tactical mitigation is boosted by virtues, such as Tolerance and Fidelity, as well as some equipment.

    Now, for your bow specifically:
    - Crit magnitudes, QS crit shot, agility, vitality, and fate.
    - If you a full red line, you could add burn hot or bleed instead of fate.
    - Personally, I believe the bleed is worthless for barbed arrow have effectively removed it from my rotation – even with the legacy and trait – still worthless.

    Again, if you are interested in raid, you should not be concerned about stacking ICPR – that’s what cappies and LM’s are for. You should be focused solely on DPS. That’s your job in a raid.

    Now, for practice: you MUST practice controlling your threat. If you are not zerging a boss and you draw agro, it’s on you. Learn to use your Beneath Notice and Endurance:QS skills. Definitely learn about the enemy too – In BG, Durch has specific skills which make it difficult for PUG tanks to keep him locked down.

    A word about relics: DPS DPS DPS. Don’t put a relic with Will, Fate, or some other non-DPS related stat. For example, if picking between a T9 fate gem or agility gem, take the agility. In short, every relic on your bow is wrong. Sorry. But, before you decon you might want to consider buying a relic removal scroll – since you have at least one usable T9 relic and they aren’t cheap.

    Lastly, you do need to be mildly concerned about morale. But really, with the given equipment out there you will almost always have enough morale if you are pick the top 2-3 jewelry items available which max agility or crit/PM rating.

    And of course, the best thing to do is simply inspect other hunters that are in your PUGs. If they consistently draw aggro and die, inspect them, get the same equipment, and learn to use your skills better than them. If they are consistently the raid dps assist, take a serious look at their bow, traits, and jewelry.
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  15. #15
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    Great insights, folks. I've deconned that bow (yep, got the relics off first), and am working on making my second age bow optimal. My jewelry and gear seem to be okay. I run the 3/3 Hytbold armour set, and I have the Eomer jewlery (guild Agility focus), with one double upgraded Battered Ring. I'm pretty much all teal. I am red traited, as I am mostly a solo player, sometimes going out with a Kin-mate who is a Minstrel (they make a great team, I've found).

    I never finished Limlight Gorge, went to the Rohan stuff instead because I wanted to try all the new stuff. I probably should go back there and try to get the Kin to do some roots. I've seen that some of the upgrades Anduin stuff is pretty nice.

    I do inspect most hunters I see, just to learn patterns of what people are using. I know I'll never be Uber-Raider, but I'd like to be the Hunter that the PUG leader comes to know as reliable. I think that the weird specifics of Durchist may have mislead me to put too much emphasis in the wrong place.

    Thanks again for all the advice! Now to work on putting it to practice...
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  16. #16
    My PvE bow has +induction/focus crit multiplier and -focus/induction power cost for majors, barbed arrow bleed damage as minor.

    Distracting shot also lowers threats on unstunnable targets, so thats a nice tool to use. Also, if you start off with slow DPS in endurance, you can really open up later in durchest and switch to precision/strength depending on build, as it will be almost impossible to climb the latter that quickly. Alternatively, you can learn through practice and watching crits when you will take aggro and preemptively beneath notice.
    Dum spiro, spero - Cicero

  17. #17
    Great thread - nice to see what others are doing and why. Gives me some new ideas for my Hunter (main).

    I play a lot and am a semi-casual player. Meaning, not a hard-core raider, but I do like running group content including raids/skraids, many of them PUG-ed. I want to be reliable especially in PUGs; running with kin tanks and healers is easier of course because we know how one another play. But in a PUG you never know what you're getting.

    And to me, when it comes to gearing and LIs, PUG reliability as a Hunter really boils down to
    1) Hurt stuff. Hurt it bad.
    2) Don't draw threat
    3) Don't ever lose sight of #1 and #2
    4) Seriously, 1 & 2 are why you exist
    5) oh yeah, and keep a hold of your power situation if possible

    So I built my level 85 2nd age bow with this in mind (I'm not hard-core enough a player to level up 2 LI bows and switch them out based on situation). My bow has:
    - focus and induction crit multiplier legacies maxed out (+25%)
    - focus and induction threat reduction legacies at rank 8 (out of 9)
    - remaining points mostly into Heart Seeker
    - All Eastemnet True Relics focused on Agilty, Physical Mastery, and Crit/Damage

    Traits: 5 red almost always
    Jewelry: fully upgraded GR agility set, plus Eastemnet guild Agility jewelry (all teals)
    Armor: 3/3 Hytbold, plus guild Agility cloak


    When solo: I swap a couple Morale/Vitality jewels in to bump morale a little, and run in Precision stance with the Wind Rider book
    When grouped: I run all Agility gear, take crit cappy buff, and run Endurance with Whisper Draw book.

    I find this setup works really well. With the group configuration I pause briefly at the start of a fight to let the tank get aggro (esp if Warden), and then go pretty all-out for the entire fight. Endurance lets me mange power easily, and I hardly ever run out. I rarely, RARELY ever pull anything off the tank unless he makes a mistake of some kind, and I still do pretty good damage (which is what I'm there for, after all).

    In the rare moments where I'm just smokin' the crits or the tank loses aggro (wrong Warden stance, stun, etc.), Beneath Notice and Distracting Shot usually bail me out. The one thing I don't do enough (and this thread has brought to my attention) is to rely more on QS for threat reduction when needed. Since I'm already in Endurance I need to work QS into the regular rotation just to bleed off some threat periodically.

    Thanks for the tips!
    Last edited by Troutdude; Feb 04 2013 at 07:32 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    I really would not ever recommend putting legacies on a bow to lessen the amount of threat you get.

    As Hunters we have a few tools to use to reduce our threat:

    1) Endurance Stance + Quickshot. Quickshot in Endurance stance will allow you to lower your aggro. The "blue feathers" above a mob's head whenever you do this combo lets you know the threat drop is being applied. Remember though - you can still crit on quick shot so the damage from the crit might negate it sometimes.

    2) Distracting Shot. It now has a threat reduction component to it. If you're on a single boss it's a good idea to toss this in every once in a while. Make a bow with a maxed cooldown reduction legacy for this skill and swap it in whenever you use the skill.

    3) Your threat reduction Tome.

    4) You can always just hold off damage at the start of the fight.

    5) Swap out some of your crit/agility gear for vit/morale gear. Lowers your dps (and therefore your threat) but will make you more survivable and less of a burden on healers.


    For bow legacies I would recommend:

    Quick Shot Critical Chance
    Induction Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Power Cost

    Legacy of Agility
    Barbed Arrow Bleed Damage
    Burn Hot Damage

    If you're a red line hunter you may want to swap in Heartseeker Damage or something like that. I relegate that to a swap-in bow though.

    I've posted some examples of bows when Riders of Rohan was in beta, you can check them out here:

    Thread: Riders of Rohan - Hunter Legendary Weapons


    I hope this helps you out in your decisions.
    you forgot to mention traiting stealthy shot which lowers your hate by 10%, the same as endurance stance.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    I really would not ever recommend putting legacies on a bow to lessen the amount of threat you get.

    As Hunters we have a few tools to use to reduce our threat:

    1) Endurance Stance + Quickshot. Quickshot in Endurance stance will allow you to lower your aggro. The "blue feathers" above a mob's head whenever you do this combo lets you know the threat drop is being applied. Remember though - you can still crit on quick shot so the damage from the crit might negate it sometimes.

    2) Distracting Shot. It now has a threat reduction component to it. If you're on a single boss it's a good idea to toss this in every once in a while. Make a bow with a maxed cooldown reduction legacy for this skill and swap it in whenever you use the skill.

    3) Your threat reduction Tome.

    4) You can always just hold off damage at the start of the fight.

    5) Swap out some of your crit/agility gear for vit/morale gear. Lowers your dps (and therefore your threat) but will make you more survivable and less of a burden on healers.


    For bow legacies I would recommend:

    Quick Shot Critical Chance
    Induction Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Critical Multiplier (MUST HAVE!)
    Focus Bow Power Cost

    Legacy of Agility
    Barbed Arrow Bleed Damage
    Burn Hot Damage

    If you're a red line hunter you may want to swap in Heartseeker Damage or something like that. I relegate that to a swap-in bow though.

    I've posted some examples of bows when Riders of Rohan was in beta, you can check them out here:

    Thread: Riders of Rohan - Hunter Legendary Weapons


    I hope this helps you out in your decisions.

    Not a fan of HS leg, even if traited red. HS sucks and there are huge opportunity costs to HS
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000000b4e77/signature.png]Wayolen[/charsig]

  20. #20
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    Regarding threat... I have experimented with the threat down legs for years and I still can't figure out how much of an impact it has. I can tell you its rather small. I really wish Turbine would make Threat a more transparent system.

    Also,

    Threat is a balance between the Tank and the hunter. If the hunter does everything right they can still pull threat if the tank sucks. But rest assured, you will be blamed for it either way.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000000b4e77/signature.png]Wayolen[/charsig]

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    Threat is a balance between the Tank and the hunter. If the hunter does everything right they can still pull threat if the tank sucks. But rest assured, you will be blamed for it either way.
    Unfortunately I find that true in many cases. Ive been running the new 85 scaled content, skraids, and other new content, (not Durch.) still with L75 second age, no crystals, and old &&&& L70 relics, and still manage to grab aggro from the tank (and not wardens either...) in PUGS --- all I can say is..... c`moooooonnn maaaaan...

    There are just as many bad tanks as there are bad hunters... Same probably goes for all the classes tbh.

  22. #22
    A tip from a warden tank. If the tank is a warden and doesn't pump his spear in the air at least 2-3 times in the start of the fight you have a bad tank. If the tank does that 2-3 times quickly, well I haven't seen anyone pull threat when I have done 3 EOB's as yet. I am sure there is someone out there who could. Durchest is of course a huge exception to aggro holding period. On a guard well always start slow and gradually increase DPS as the fight goes on is a solid best practice.
    Welleg , Kelleg, and Gelleg - Crickhollow
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    A tip from a warden tank. If the tank is a warden and doesn't pump his spear in the air at least 2-3 times in the start of the fight you have a bad tank. If the tank does that 2-3 times quickly, well I haven't seen anyone pull threat when I have done 3 EOB's as yet. I am sure there is someone out there who could. Durchest is of course a huge exception to aggro holding period. On a guard well always start slow and gradually increase DPS as the fight goes on is a solid best practice.

    ^^^The bit about wardens tanking aggro, I've tested around the edges and in many cases, i can full out dps from the start (almost) if I know the warden knows about aggro
    Last edited by myforumacc2; Feb 13 2013 at 04:24 PM.
    Mirkwoodian - Savior of the Ettenmoors

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    Regarding threat... I have experimented with the threat down legs for years and I still can't figure out how much of an impact it has. I can tell you its rather small. I really wish Turbine would make Threat a more transparent system.

    Also,

    Threat is a balance between the Tank and the hunter. If the hunter does everything right they can still pull threat if the tank sucks. But rest assured, you will be blamed for it either way.
    Rereading this thread reminded me of one I read quite some time back regarding threat down legacies.
    This thread here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-probably-work did an excellent job of going over what we think the threat legacies do.

    There's a fair bit of info in there, but ultimately the TL;DR version of it is the legacies didn't scale well and are pretty useless at the current cap. They do more by taking the place of a useful legacy than the actual benefit they provide.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by myforumacc2 View Post
    ^^^The bit about wardens tanking aggro, I've tested around the edges and in many cases, i can full out dps from the start (almost) if I know the warden knows about aggro
    if warden wants aggro he will have.. nothing can u d against it (same on every class) except some aggro resetting bosses, and durchest but that isnt our fault XD

    so if having trouble with aggro -> search a good tank

 

 
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