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Thread: Beorn Begins?

  1. #1
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    Beorn Begins?

    The recent talk about Beorn and his line has started me pondering again about the topic of his origins. It might have been brought up here before, but I think y'all could bear it again. (get it? bear?)

    In The Hobbit Gandalf says-
    Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first man who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, but I fancy the last is the true tale.
    and...

    I once say him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears: 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself.
    That's all I know there is about the origins of Beorn. I know the Smaug movie alludes that there were many like him and the goblins made sport of his kind. I wondered when I heard that part if PJ was just making that up or there was an actual reference he pulled from that I was unaware of. Gandalf's statement about Beorn coming before the goblins seems to contradict the movie however. Big shock I know. But that still begs the question who are the 'they' Beorn was talking about?

    So getting down to brass tacks, is there anywhere else in the books that give us more clues about Beorn? I'm curious to what y'all think about it.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

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    I think he refers to the Goblins that sacked Carrock, thus his hate for goblins, orcs.

    I think of Beorn as the ultimate helping friend for anyone of the free-people, I mean if he can tackle his way and kill a HobGoblin Orc he can do anything, he likes bees and honey and its a very compenent fighter, just wonder if other animals he talks about were all beornings bears people or did some take other forms, did they knew Radagast I imagine he would have visited atleast once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I think he refers to the Goblins that sacked Carrock, thus his hate for goblins, orcs.

    I think of Beorn as the ultimate helping friend for anyone of the free-people, I mean if he can tackle his way and kill a HobGoblin Orc he can do anything, he likes bees and honey and its a very compenent fighter, just wonder if other animals he talks about were all beornings bears people or did some take other forms, did they knew Radagast I imagine he would have visited atleast once.
    Err... what

    The Carrock was that great big rock by the river. Beorn had supposedly originally come from the mountains and been driven out by the Goblins, hence the hate. No mention of anywhere being 'sacked'. And no, Beorn wasn't everyone's best friend - he was none too fond of Dwarves in general. He was so helpful to Thorin & Co. because the news of the Great Goblin's death had put him in a really good mood.

    As for skin-changing it was bears or nothing as far as the Beornings went. It's in the book - the men of Beorn's line retained his ability to turn into a bear.

  4. #4

    Naturally, one "sacks" a rock ...

    ... by pulling a sack over a rock: ça va sans dire ... if it happens to be a particularly large rock, it must needs require a proportionately-dimensioned sack.

    Rock-sacking is well-known to be one of the more-unusual of (hob)goblin customs, particularly since its cultural significance has never been adequately identified; it is generally agreed, however, that the failure of the attempt at the Carrock was a stroke of good-fortune for the Free Peoples of the region, as a gust of wind not only inflated the giant sack, thus at once foiling the effort, but indeed carried it aloft and --with it-- the reigning Great Goblin, and not a small few of his attendant peons. I should have written this on Tuesday!

    As to the purpose of this thread, however, there does appear to be a curious issue concerning Beorn's motives for his appearance at the battle of Five Armies, at all: on the one hand, he was a bold man who was not wont to let villainous creatures have their way, uncontested (a similar motive may be ascribed to the eagles), and also he was very-likely "the" archtypical berserker ("bear-sarker": wearer of a/the bear-skin shirt), who would not flinch from either the prospect of "exercise", or "sport", through combat; on the other hand, it was not his fight, it was hundreds of miles from his home on the opposite side of Mirkwood, and the Free Peoples involved could not have claimed his friendship (though the Lake-men might have been able to claim some form of long-sundered kinship).

    We can not say, for certain, because the author reveals nothing about this in the narrative.

    There are very few known reasons to justify his presence, and many straight-forward and rather-obvious reasons to justify his absence; yet, he was there.

    HoG

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    I know what I said, Carrock was home to Beorn, new or old Goblins literally placed his old home in fire, hence his hate.

    Beorn and the people of the Moutains and surrounding place...not the Mountains lived there all could transform to other creatures too, which ones I dont know possibly Bears, wolves, and woods creatures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Beorn and the people of the Moutains and surrounding place...not the Mountains lived there all could transform to other creatures too, which ones I dont know possibly Bears, wolves, and woods creatures.
    And can you cite a source for this very bold statement?
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I know what I said, Carrock was home to Beorn, new or old Goblins literally placed his old home in fire, hence his hate.
    I know what you said, but that's just you making stuff up.

    Beorn and the people of the Moutains and surrounding place...not the Mountains lived there all could transform to other creatures too, which ones I dont know possibly Bears, wolves, and woods creatures.
    And so is that.

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    Oh good gravy I didn't expect Random McWordy to come back and latch onto this. Starting to regret making this thread now...(sigh)
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    And can you cite a source for this very bold statement?
    Yes, its a minor quote but its there, Hobbit Chapter 7 and Ending Chapter.
    "Eventually became a "great chief" in the Vales of Anduin"
    that implies two things: Beorn was Chief of his people, which lived in the Vales of the Anduin.
    Also that his decendants were skin-changers.

    So yes they didn't lived in Moutains...like radhruin says, plainly dumb statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Yes, its a minor quote but its there, Hobbit Chapter 7 and Ending Chapter.

    that implies two things: Beorn was Chief of his people, which lived in the Vales of the Anduin.
    Also that his decendants were skin-changers.

    So yes they didn't lived in Moutains...like radhruin says, plainly dumb statement.
    Beorn had apparently come from the mountains; Gandalf had overheard him saying to himself that he wanted to go back there!

    "I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself."

    - The Hobbit, 'Queer Lodgings'

    And like I said, the Carrock was just a local landmark that Beorn frequented, 'a great rock, almost a hill of stone'. Oh, and to remind you once again the book says that the men of Beorn's line could take the shape of bears, specifically, not anything else. Stop making things up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Beorn had apparently come from the mountains; Gandalf had overheard him saying to himself that he wanted to go back there!

    "I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself."

    - The Hobbit, 'Queer Lodgings'

    And like I said, the Carrock was just a local landmark that Beorn frequented, 'a great rock, almost a hill of stone'. Oh, and to remind you once again the book says that the men of Beorn's line could take the shape of bears, specifically, not anything else. Stop making things up.
    That is out of context, Gandalf implies Beorn distant linage, and dont try to persuade people your goody-two shoes, Carrock was Home of Beorn its in the Hobbit at least part of it.

    Old as Mountains, is the correct analogy, you really have problems with those.

    Last edited by Al.; Apr 05 2014 at 08:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    That is out of context, Gandalf implies Beorn distant linage, and dont try to persuade people your goody-two shoes, Carrock was Home of Beorn its in the Hobbit at least part of it.

    Old as Mountains, is the correct analogy, you really have problems with those.

    Uhhh this picture you posted shows Beorn's house (aka his home) in the background. The Carrock which was some miles away was just a landmark as Rad said, not where he lived.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    Uhhh this picture you posted shows Beorn's house (aka his home) in the background. The Carrock which was some miles away was just a landmark as Rad said, not where he lived.
    His Home is also Carrock, do you count your yard as your home?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    His Home is also Carrock, do you count your yard as your home?
    Like I said in the Gondor thread, give us a quote from the Hobbit or anywhere else for that matter which even suggests that the Carrock may have been used by Beorn as a home. The fact is that there is none. I've never heard of anyone ever claiming that before. Once again it's just a case of you misinterpreting Tolkien and then to save embarrassment claiming that you are right and everyone else is stupid.

    I'd suggest to you to give up before you make a complete idiot of yourself, but I'm afraid that opportunity has long since passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    His Home is also Carrock, do you count your yard as your home?
    Here ya go. Pulled right from the book.

    Gandalf says as the group is traveling from The Carrock:
    'He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly as marvelous as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not eat them; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals.'
    Don't get much plainer than that. And before you go off on one of your lil rabbit trails again, that last bit does not imply that any of the other animals were skin-changers like Beorn.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Your delusional bambu, really. His Home extends its not like if Carrock was "his living quarters" but its his home too, just like Tom Bombadil is Master of the Old Forest his "realm", same goes with Beorn.
    It wasn't even on the same side of the river. It was just a place he liked to go. It's only 'the' Carrock because 'carrock' is what he called great big rocks like that, and that one was the only carrock anywhere near his home. Not at his home, near his home (as Gandalf says in the book). So you can stop calling people things like 'delusional' right now and settle down, because you're just plain wrong.

    'Carrock' apparently comes from an old Cumbrian word, carrec, meaning (unsurprisingly) a rock. That's all it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It wasn't even on the same side of the river. It was just a place he liked to go. It's only 'the' Carrock because 'carrock' is what he called great big rocks like that, and that one was the only carrock anywhere near his home. Not at his home, near his home (as Gandalf says in the book). So you can stop calling people things like 'delusional' right now and settle down, because you're just plain wrong.

    'Carrock' apparently comes from an old Cumbrian word, carrec, meaning (unsurprisingly) a rock. That's all it is.
    A rock close to his home, go figure.

    and yes your delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Your delusional bambu, really. His Home extends its not like if Carrock was "his living quarters" but its his home too, just like Tom Bombadil is Master of the Old Forest his "realm", same goes with Beorn.
    I tell you what AI, I kinda missed you if only for the fact that you're just a hoot and a half! Now you're just tryin to wiggle out of this with some fancy wordplay or something. Here is what you said:

    Carrock was Home of Beorn its in the Hobbit at least part of it.
    I took this literally to mean you were saying the Carrock was where Beorn lived or lived at some point. There is nothing in the book to indicate this. Beorn lived in a house. Gandalf speculated Beorn used to live in the mountains. The Carrock was simply part of the landscape. It did not belong to Beorn and nowhere in the book do I remeber Beorn laying claim to it. If you can find something to the contrary from the book, please post it.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    A rock close to his home, go figure.

    and yes your delusional.
    A rock on the other side of the river, some miles from his home... a long and tiring walk for Thorin & Co., 'up slope and down dale', that took them hours (from the morning until mid-afternoon). So no, not really that close.

    And don't bother arguing or calling me names: I've got the book open in front of me, right now as I type this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    His Home is also Carrock, do you count your yard as your home?
    Good point Al.


    Another fictional example: The home of the Cartwright family was the Ponderosa. How long would it take for a person to walk from one end of it to the other?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonanza

    The family lived on a 600,000+ acre (937+ square-mile) ranch called the Ponderosa on the eastern shore of Lake Tahoe in Nevada.



    The only question is: to what extent did Beorn consider his current domain to extend to.
    Last edited by RKL; Jun 18 2014 at 11:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    I tell you what AI, I kinda missed you if only for the fact that you're just a hoot and a half! Now you're just tryin to wiggle out of this with some fancy wordplay or something. Here is what you said:



    I took this literally to mean you were saying the Carrock was where Beorn lived or lived at some point. There is nothing in the book to indicate this. Beorn lived in a house. Gandalf speculated Beorn used to live in the mountains. The Carrock was simply part of the landscape. It did not belong to Beorn and nowhere in the book do I remeber Beorn laying claim to it. If you can find something to the contrary from the book, please post it.
    This is interesting. So Beorn used to live in the mountains. And now he lives in a house. Does this mean that Beorn did not have a house in the mountains? If Beorn now lives in a house, and where he lives now does not include surrounding areas: Then by Gandalf’s statement (if your interpretation of it was correct and also if Gandalf guessed correctly) he could not have lived in a house in the mountains; because the mountains would have been "simply part of the landscape". (unless of course, he build a huge house that encompassed the entirety of the mountains) Furthermore, by extension; if he lived in a cave or any structure, that would also mean he did not live in the mountains. So we can conclude by your definition that Beorn was homeless when he lived in the mountains. (if you equate home and house as being the same thing)

    Or perhaps your statement: “Gandalf speculated that Beorn once lived in the mountains” was a misinterpretation of the actual quote that Rad provided. "I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself."
    Last edited by RKL; Jun 18 2014 at 03:01 AM.

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    Here is another interesting quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    Here ya go. Pulled right from the book.

    Gandalf says as the group is traveling from The Carrock:

    'He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly as marvelous as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not eat them; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals.'


    Don't get much plainer than that. And before you go off on one of your lil rabbit trails again, that last bit does not imply that any of the other animals were skin-changers like Beorn.

    So Gandalf himself says “He lives in an oak-wood”. He has defined the definition of where someone lives: as including “part of the landscape” exterior to the house. (again; unless his house is so big that it encompasses the entire oak-wood)
    Last edited by RKL; Jun 18 2014 at 01:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post

    His Home is also Carrock, do you count your yard as your home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    Like I said in the Gondor thread, give us a quote from the Hobbit or anywhere else for that matter which even suggests that the Carrock may have been used by Beorn as a home. The fact is that there is none. I've never heard of anyone ever claiming that before. Once again it's just a case of you misinterpreting Tolkien and then to save embarrassment claiming that you are right and everyone else is stupid.

    I'd suggest to you to give up before you make a complete idiot of yourself, but I'm afraid that opportunity has long since passed.

    I am not sure why you rephrased Al’s statement: but in light of the multiple definitions of the word home; I can’t say that I understand your objection to it.




    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/home?s=t


    5: the place or region where something is native or most common.




    Perhaps it takes a person to whom English is a second language to expand our own definitions, since we occasionally get used to using words in limited ways.

  24. #24
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    Some last questions.


    Was the Shire the home of the hobbits?

    Was Gondor the home of Boromir?

    Was Rivendell the home of Elrond?

    Was Lorien the home of Galadriel?

    Was the Vales of Anduin the home of Beorn?
    Last edited by RKL; Jun 18 2014 at 02:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    Perhaps it takes a person to whom English is a second language to expand our own definitions, since we occasionally get used to using words in limited ways.
    Or more frequently, to misunderstand (through no fault of their own) the subtle shades of meaning some words may have.

    You can talk loosely about a region or town being your home but once you start talking about specific places within that locale, 'home' becomes more narrowly defined. You can see this in The Hobbit - we might say that the Vales of Anduin were home to Beorn, but Gandalf draws a clear distinction between the Carrock and Beorn's home because they were different places. As I mentioned in an earlier post, according to Gandalf the Carrock was 'the' Carrock because 'carrock' was what Beorn called that sort of huge rock, and it happened to be the only one near his home. Given that to get from the Carrock to Beorn's house they had to ford the Anduin and then walk for hours, 'up slope and down dale', making that distinction seems obvious. It wasn't as if the Carrock was at the end of Beorn's garden, or anything like that: it was miles away, on the other side of a major river.

 

 
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