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  1. #1

    Durchest is too easy! (but wait....)

    I've been pugging Durchest a lot. Even though Viaticus does a full BG clear 2 times a week or so, it's fun seeing other people's strategies.

    Some people have said that the Durchest farming is out of control and that Durchest is too easy. Well, last night I found a group that simply couldn't take him down.

    Granted, the group makeup wasn't ideal. We had 1 Guardian, 3 Captains, 2 Champions, 2 Minstrels, and RK, and 2 Hunters and...something else.

    Basically, the Guardian couldn't hold aggro (My HoH traited Captain pulled threat even with the debuff), the Minstrels refused to heal, and the Champions omg-dps'd Durchest from the get-go and fubar'd the threat tables. The Hunters were on full blast as soon as they ran in and, and, and... Death came swiftly and comicly to us all.

    All in all it was a Grade-A cluster, and a complete joy to behold. So the next time some cries out that it's TOO EASY!... there are still groups that can't get it done.


    Epilogue:
    Earlier the same evening, I was with a (much better) group that wanted to go from Durchest to the Twins. A few people were keen to the idea, but a lot were afraid to try. I'm no psychology expert, but it was fascinating watching people who were so accustomed to farming what they knew...but were so afraid to trying something new...something thta might involve dying a few times and failing. <gasp!>

    Today is the day that I appreciate being in a proper raiding kin.
    Last edited by Leadfingers; Jan 10 2013 at 01:28 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000002964/01002/signature.png]Cassandra[/charsig]

    [url]http://my.lotro.com/character/windfola/cassandra[/url]

  2. #2
    was in a group this morning that had to wipe due to too many people dying. In the first run with this group I got plastered by durchest in the first seconds. Note to wardens don't waste NS on the trash pulls. basically the first few seconds can be harrowing especially when the leader wanted to use the front wall instead of the back. It can be trouble in the first few seconds as the group collects itself in the room and gets their bearings. After that though unless a lot of people are defeated its business as usual. Mostly its easy if the tanks know what they are doing and the dps take it easy till the first add enters. Still it takes only a few fools to spoil a run or at least make it last 10 minutes longer than it needs to. I think its easy because we know it well, the strategy is easy to communicate ,and it only really depends on the 2 tanks to execute it well.
    Welleg , Kelleg, and Gelleg - Crickhollow
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    It really is hilarious to see both the strategies pugs come up with and the amount of fail moments you see once you go past Durchest in BG these days(or even at Durchest). Was in a LT fight the other night where people had no clue about not letting corruptions tier up too high despite it being explained, another one where 7 people got caught by the fellbeast and died. Not to mention that any content that has puddle mechanics always stumps at least 2-3 people and they end up standing in them oblivious to the fact they're taking massive damage and somehow managing to ignore the whole raid screaming at them to move.

    All in all it's pure comedy as long as you're in the right mood for it, I personally don't pug anymore unless I'm ok with potentially wasting my time wiping.
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  4. #4
    I don't think Durchest T2 challenge is easy. That fight can be very hectic and technical. Even with a decent raiding team you can wipe if people doze of for a second and aren't paying attention to adds, corruptions and positioning.

    Durchest T1 farming is very easy and forgiving however. But T1 is suppose to be easy. Funny enough people still wipe in there, they wipe because no one is removing corruptions, the tank don't know how the treat-generation work and hunters think they can tank the adds np guys i got this! When you as a healer or tank have to spend half the fight removing corruptions from boss, because airheads aren't doing their jobs, than you should probably just leave the PUG. Haven't encountered any bad PUG in ages tho, probably because most people know the fight by bow.

    So overall i would say Durchest T1 works perfectly fine, its not to easy. Bad, stupid or inexpedience players should also be able to raid and farm symbols.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by clarabelle View Post
    Bad, stupid or inexpedience players should also be able to raid and farm symbols.
    You think bad and stupid players should be able to finish content and get loot?

    erm... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000002964/01002/signature.png]Cassandra[/charsig]

    [url]http://my.lotro.com/character/windfola/cassandra[/url]

  6. #6
    Yeah out of all of BG T2, it definitely feels like the trash and Durchest are the only hard parts now if you don't have the right group makeup.
    In T2 as long as you have a good group that communicates a full BG T2 is more of a fun run now with Twins being a nice relaxing break.

    Speaknig of "but wait..." last night in a kin group we had only 1 tank on T2 Durchest.

    So we improvised with a champ as second tank. This was hairy and took a couple attempts and we finally didn't risk challenge because of a couple deaths. We can probably do it better next time but next time I'd prefer to have 2 proper tanks
    Last edited by Thermight; Jan 10 2013 at 03:33 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000b1e1a/signature.png]Kangas[/charsig]
    [URL="http://helmsdeep.guildportal.com"]Helm's Deep[/URL] Kangas-Captain Kangdoom-Champ Furtive-Burg Wildlife-Hunter

  7. #7
    It's not that that was a bad group make up... sounds more or less like there was no communication. Pugs are iffy. If the tank is new (IE cannot hold agro on a Guard) then they've gotta tell other people to hold off at least a bit. Mini's not healing? They need to make it perfectly clear at the start of the raid that they are there to DPS. It sounds like a great group make up if you ask me. Sure a Burg or LM whatever would have been nice but it's still doable.

    I find the only troubles with Durchest are in PuGs. No one ever wants to talk or strategize, communicate, etc. They all just say "Oh this is easy no need for a plan." Funny they say that though and then cannot complete it eh? He he.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    doesn't change the fact that it's easy :P
    .
    Master Blaster, Up-and-Comer, Explorer of the Brown Lands

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Here's why you lost

    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win. This is because the target of Durchest's aggression will get an increasing threat reduction debuff. Simply put, wait too long, and the guard cannot generate ANY aggro. This means Durchest starts killing people. You need two tanks, and they need to switch between each other for this reason; The tank not in combat will have their debuff removed after 30 or so seconds. Then the tank switches back in. Rinse and repeat.

    ~Migitus

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win. This is because the target of Durchest's aggression will get an increasing threat reduction debuff. Simply put, wait too long, and the guard cannot generate ANY aggro. This means Durchest starts killing people. You need two tanks, and they need to switch between each other for this reason; The tank not in combat will have their debuff removed after 30 or so seconds. Then the tank switches back in. Rinse and repeat.

    ~Migitus
    I've seen Durchest T2c solo tanked many times. My kin used to have captains enter first to get the aggro debuff then the tank came in after a few seconds.
    Admittedly it is easier with 2, but because only 1 tank is required for the rest of BG it seems like a waste of a raid spot.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win.
    We often did Durchest with 1 real tank without particular problem
    The Warden/Guard on Durchest and me, tank geared Champ, on adds (I have already tanked Durchest when the tank was dead in some runs, he doesn't hit strong (for example, Kranklob in WP T2C is a lot stronger (>7.5K hits))
    Last edited by Castorix; Jan 14 2013 at 06:29 AM.

  12. #12
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    Durchest T2C

    Durchest does not hit hard??? Aftet the first 5 adds, he routinely hits the tank for 12k+ with LM and Burg debuffs on hiim.
    Luinmiriel [L105 Elf Hunter], Marisibelle [L105 Burglar], Rosilyn [L105 Captain], Carafindriel [L105 Elf Minstrel], Katellin [L105 Beorning], Vornmiriel [L105 Elf Hunter], Melissabelle [L88 Burglar], Lorindriel [L43 Elf Warden], Tamilynne [L15 Hobbit Burglar]
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  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Stack - Remove Corruptions - Burn adds - Be happy. Unfortunately, some people don't know how to do these steps.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0e2150000000d9e9a/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Durchest does not hit hard??? Aftet the first 5 adds, he routinely hits the tank for 12k+ with LM and Burg debuffs on hiim.
    I've tanked him several times on T2C on my guard and he never once hit for anywhere close to 12k, 5k is about as bad as it got.
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  15. #15
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    XD Actually, I tend to get three tank-ish classes if we ever go past Durchest. It helps makes the few hard trash pulls easier IF you're not using CC. It goes slower, but you get there.

    Could you solo tank it? Yes. Is it much easier to just have two instead? Yes, I guess.

    ~Migitus

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win. This is because the target of Durchest's aggression will get an increasing threat reduction debuff. Simply put, wait too long, and the guard cannot generate ANY aggro. This means Durchest starts killing people. You need two tanks, and they need to switch between each other for this reason; The tank not in combat will have their debuff removed after 30 or so seconds. Then the tank switches back in. Rinse and repeat.

    ~Migitus
    Durchest T1 - 6 Players, 1 Tank

    http://youtu.be/2KJHNZljRAY

  17. #17
    Well^^
    Durchest t2 challenge Mode 6 players (but there was the need of 2 Tanks)

    [IMG]http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150325/5dqj4qir.jpg[/IMG]
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win. This is because the target of Durchest's aggression will get an increasing threat reduction debuff. Simply put, wait too long, and the guard cannot generate ANY aggro. This means Durchest starts killing people. You need two tanks, and they need to switch between each other for this reason; The tank not in combat will have their debuff removed after 30 or so seconds. Then the tank switches back in. Rinse and repeat.

    ~Migitus
    Or have the tank take both Durchest and the add and tier the threat debuff down, saves a lot of time. Slap some heavies in front of the boss wait some time and then profit.


    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Durchest does not hit hard??? Aftet the first 5 adds, he routinely hits the tank for 12k+ with LM and Burg debuffs on hiim.
    Corruptions anyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    XD Actually, I tend to get three tank-ish classes if we ever go past Durchest. It helps makes the few hard trash pulls easier IF you're not using CC. It goes slower, but you get there.

    Could you solo tank it? Yes. Is it much easier to just have two instead? Yes, I guess.

    ~Migitus
    With a good tank and a good RAT there's no need for more than one. The only pull that could go wrong are the corner pulls on top of the stair, but even if you'd mess them up once people know what they're supposed to do even a bad pull won't wipe you.
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008000]If it moves, kill it - Then look for more things to kill[/COLOR][/SIZE]

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Durchest does not hit hard??? Aftet the first 5 adds, he routinely hits the tank for 12k+ with LM and Burg debuffs on hiim.
    Then the tank is not correctly geared with mitigations not capped (70%) or Durchest had several corruptions (+10% each)
    I'm a Champ and I receive about 5K max...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Migtus View Post
    If you don't have two tanks for Durchest, ON ANY TIER, you will not win. This is because the target of Durchest's aggression will get an increasing threat reduction debuff. Simply put, wait too long, and the guard cannot generate ANY aggro. This means Durchest starts killing people. You need two tanks, and they need to switch between each other for this reason; The tank not in combat will have their debuff removed after 30 or so seconds. Then the tank switches back in. Rinse and repeat.

    ~Migitus
    Just to ensure this horse gets properly beaten to death.....
    I've routinely done it [short manning T1] with 2 capts going in 1st getting the insignificance debuff to -50% each and having a tank step in and the run went just fine. The key is 2 ppl step in front, the raid does little dps, focus on debuffs and corruption removal.

    The original poster's group was a cluster fock that's why, as he/she indicated, the run failed. Minis not healing, huntards and chimptards blasting away. Hell probably melee classes weren't properly positioned resulting in debuff wipes or the chimps were running in and out from the front of Durchest as part of borking the development of the debuff (I saw this last night).

    The main issue is people think raiding is /rawr and /faceroll as opposed to using a strategy. I have on multiple occasions explained the "2 go in, get 50% insignificance, and then the tank steps in" strategy, ask if there are questions, comments, concerns, or alternate strategies only to get idiots doing w/e they think they should do (note: discussion of how to address this isn't the point so let's set aside how to fix a non-compliant raid member).

    Personally I detest the all in front strategy:
    1. it lacks elegance, finesse, is reckless, and basically sloppy/lazy
    a. you only need 3 ppl there and that is it
    b. you hinder your ability to maneuver
    c. someone might have a huge debuff that renders their ability to pull a target off of a hunter, lm, rk, or mini and that means buh bye bye and a heal debuff onto Durchest
    2. you have people getting punted all over the place by the adds
    3. you might have an idiot or weak character get the aggro and end up tanking
    4. you put squishy classes/ill-prepared raiders at risk of dying
    5. your healers now are worrying about healing a bunch of people
    6. finally it likely won't work for you in a T2 run b/c of the increased difficulty and the additional 5 adds

    My 2 coppers on the matter.

    /Chuck
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress? A 4th fix to get Draigoch to "dragon up" that still doesn't fix the persistent bug in the raid is not how I define progress.

  21. #21
    another horse that should be beat is the misconception that the corruptions increase his melee attacks.

    Durchest does common damage.
    When fire or (in tier 2) lightning ads die are the only time he does tactical damage,

    and I've been in multiple raids where someones chirping about a corruption removal rotation full time on t2/t2c, and the only time you really need corruptions removed are right when the fire/lightning ads die, or when you're burning him down before the last ad.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    another horse that should be beat is the misconception that the corruptions increase his melee attacks.

    Durchest does common damage.
    When fire or (in tier 2) lightning ads die are the only time he does tactical damage,

    and I've been in multiple raids where someones chirping about a corruption removal rotation full time on t2/t2c, and the only time you really need corruptions removed are right when the fire/lightning ads die, or when you're burning him down before the last ad.
    Oh yes i always start laughing when after some dies he blame the corruptions for it.
    [CENTER][B][SIZE="1"][color="red"]"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." [/color]
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by voalkrynn2 View Post
    Just to ensure this horse gets properly beaten to death.....
    I've routinely done it [short manning T1] with 2 capts going in 1st getting the insignificance debuff to -50% each and having a tank step in and the run went just fine. The key is 2 ppl step in front, the raid does little dps, focus on debuffs and corruption removal.
    I haven't tanked it since I read more details about debuff mechanics, going usually with my cap or mins, but does the tank indeed has to wait for such debuff value (-50%) on cappies before he takes aggro and goes in front?
    I understood that two first people being hit by Durchest gain the debuff that may go high up to -90%, but if they are constantly being hit, a third person will have -10% debuff at most for the whole fight.
    That would mean that the tank doesn't have to wait to long and can grab Durchest just after two cappies gain any debuff, knowing that only their debuffs will go higher than -10%.
    Is it so, or there is a purpose to wait for that debuff on capts to reach -50%?
    Although cappies wear heavy armour and can endure significant damage, it is safer to have Durchest on tank than any other character as soon as possible...
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/20224000000100363/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irowen View Post
    Well^^
    Durchest t2 challenge Mode 6 players (but there was the need of 2 Tanks)

    Hmm ... looking at the fight duration (~3:49) something begins to smell fishy here. Durchest has a morale pool of 1,529,688 morale and then you also have to kill 10 adds worth of 97,900 morale each. That makes up for a combined 2,508,688 morale. Thats means your 6-man-raid (why was it trasnformed to a raid anyways, when you could've just went in there with a group?) would have done a total of almost 11k raid-wide DPS with just one DPS class (while having to deal with kicks, probably some kiting on the adds and being forced to use sub-optimal DPS rotations for corruption removal reasons).
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerzol View Post
    I haven't tanked it since I read more details about debuff mechanics, going usually with my cap or mins, but does the tank indeed has to wait for such debuff value (-50%) on cappies before he takes aggro and goes in front?
    I understood that two first people being hit by Durchest gain the debuff that may go high up to -90%, but if they are constantly being hit, a third person will have -10% debuff at most for the whole fight.
    That would mean that the tank doesn't have to wait to long and can grab Durchest just after two cappies gain any debuff, knowing that only their debuffs will go higher than -10%.
    Is it so, or there is a purpose to wait for that debuff on capts to reach -50%?
    Although cappies wear heavy armour and can endure significant damage, it is safer to have Durchest on tank than any other character as soon as possible...
    The last time I employed the 1-tank-strategy was back at level 65 but the threat and debuff mechanics haven't changed as far as I know. Things are a bit more complicated than described here in this thread.

    Lets start of with some basics:

    - the debuff can split across a maximum of three people at a time
    - the sum of all debuffs can never exceed 210%
    - the chance for people standing in front of Durchest to get the debuff is not equal for each and every member of your raid

    So basically when the tank steps in too early his debuff will reach higher levels than you will want him to have, that's why the tank should wait for the debuff to build up on the two people standing in front of Durchest, so his own debuff (which he will definitely get once he steps in) stays kind of low (due to the limit of a combined 210%). If things work out perfectly, the tank gets a 10% debuff while your other two guys standing in front of Durchest are at 100%. But even a 30% debuff on the tank (with the other guys sitting at 90% each) is still manageable if the tank gets time to establish aggro prior to the DPS going crazy. Once the Debuffs are settled you got to make sure that no other people (who may have a higher probability to get the debuff) step in front of Durchest to accidently fetch the debuff in place of you original three debuff bearers, also none of the three guys in front of Durchest is allowed to die (if tank dies, a DPS class will have aggro and turn away the boss from the 90/100% guys for too long for the debuff to be renewed on them; if one of the other two dies, the debuff on the tank has room to increase; in both scenarios the aggro is completely borked and the distribution of the debuff gets out of hands).
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
    Vodomir - Champion (105) | Shae - Captain (97)
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