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Thread: Questions:

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Questions:

    Hello,
    im about to start reading the Silmarillion. But I have some questions about LOTR I'm not sure if they will be answered.

    1. Since Saruman betrayed the Istari/Mission, why didn't he ignore the rules and stayed human. He didn't fight, he didn't change his appearance. He still followed part of the rules. He didn't even use his magic in the battles of LOTR. Why? Is there any reason?

    2. If the Istari where almost too weak to fight Sauron, why didn't the gods just send one Valar in`? Sauron was just a Maiar, one single Valar would probably have ended the whole thing in a few days, one would think.

    3. If the Istari knew about the Balrog, wich was an evil Maiar, why didn't they do anything about it until it was almost too late? Wouldn't it be the Istaris mission to kill anything that came from Morgoth?

    It seems like they intentionaly let things happen so it would be a little death involved. I don't get that. The God and the Half-Gods semm to be pretty cruel.

    Btw, do the people of Middleearth know about the Creation, Iluvatar and the Maiar f.e.? Do they even know whats in the undying lands? I mean, everybody there seems to be god-like, so it would be like heaven to us, just reachable with a ship.

    some questions, hope to find answers!
    Thank you

  2. #2
    1. Well, as Gandalf put it 'Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?' So I guess in answer to your question, how do we know he didn't? He may have had any number of reasons not to fight himself, in much the same way Morgoth and Sauron both opted not to fight if they could possibly avoid it, even when they were clearly far more powerful than their opponents. However, Tolkien never really expanded on this, so that's really just my speculation; other people could still come up with different reasons you find you like better. xD

    2. The two wars the Valar engaged in, the War of Wrath and the Battle of the Powers, both nearly destroyed the world, and the Valar didn't want to risk a similar confrontation until there was no other alternative. So they sent the Istari to help and assist the peoples of Middle Earth, just not as an elite fighting force.

    Which brings us to 3. They actually didn't know about the Balrog originally. When Gimli asked about it, Gandalf only replied that he did not know. 'But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
    `As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh; that is "fire". Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
    'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.'

    4. The Elves at least know what's in the Undying Lands. Galadriel, Glorfindel, and in some versions Celeborn all came to Middle Earth from Valinor. Elves occassionally came from the Undying Lands to Numenor during the Second Age, and the Istari in the Third, so yes, there are people in Middle Earth who know first-hand what's there.

    Hope this is helplful.

    If you really want to know more about the Istari, I suggest reading Unfinished Tales.
    Well, I suppose you could always say "flame resistant sunglasses" if you prefer that to "shoes"

  3. #3
    Since you are about to start reading the Sil I'll try not to spoil it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schaine11 View Post
    1. Since Saruman betrayed the Istari/Mission, why didn't he ignore the rules and stayed human. He didn't fight, he didn't change his appearance. He still followed part of the rules. He didn't even use his magic in the battles of LOTR. Why? Is there any reason?
    good question - based on what little we know of the Maia origins of the Istari, Saruman was a servant (pupil might be a better term) of the Vala Aule. This attuned him to crafting instead of battle and you can see it in LOTR. Saruman had a love of devices. In addition Gandalf suggest Saruman's most potent weapon was his voice. It's also possible that if any of the Istari dropped their 'human' incarnation it might have been game-over for them. When Gandalf perished in the Balrog fight he was sent back with a slightly revised mandate and powers or perhaps the rules were relaxed a little for him. It doesn't appear that Gandalf had the ability to return on his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schaine11 View Post
    2. If the Istari where almost too weak to fight Sauron, why didn't the gods just send one Valar in`? Sauron was just a Maiar, one single Valar would probably have ended the whole thing in a few days, one would think.
    - revealed in the Sil

    Quote Originally Posted by Schaine11 View Post
    3. If the Istari knew about the Balrog, wich was an evil Maiar, why didn't they do anything about it until it was almost too late? Wouldn't it be the Istaris mission to kill anything that came from Morgoth?

    It seems like they intentionaly let things happen so it would be a little death involved. I don't get that. The God and the Half-Gods semm to be pretty cruel.

    Btw, do the people of Middleearth know about the Creation, Iluvatar and the Maiar f.e.? Do they even know whats in the undying lands? I mean, everybody there seems to be god-like, so it would be like heaven to us, just reachable with a ship.

    Thank you
    - no one knew exactly what Durin's Bane was, including the Istari. What we know of the Creation, etc. is what the Eldar knew of, most of which came from the Noldor that returned to Middle-earth. It's not exactly reachable with just 'any ship', at least not anymore - keep reading and find out why....

    Enjoy
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    13
    I'm pretty sure the scene with the Balrog must be diffrent then in the movie. There, Saruman sais something like "You know what s in moria, the dwarves dug too deep." and when asked in Moria, Gandalf initially knows what it is, since he says to gimli, that its a Balrog. If thats diffrent in the books, then it would make sense.

    Btw. i accidentally made two posts with the same content, don't know how. In the other thread, someone talked about the scene with the Balrog, and it seems like they really didn't know. But why did Gandalf say "Its something ive never felt/seen before". If the Balrogs were wariiors of Morgoth, he must have heard of it at least in his Maiar-days.

    anyways, mods can close this thread, since its doulbe. Thank you for all the information. Can't watit to read the books!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaine11 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the scene with the Balrog must be diffrent then in the movie. There, Saruman sais something like "You know what s in moria, the dwarves dug too deep." and when asked in Moria, Gandalf initially knows what it is, since he says to gimli, that its a Balrog. If thats diffrent in the books, then it would make sense.

    Btw. i accidentally made two posts with the same content, don't know how. In the other thread, someone talked about the scene with the Balrog, and it seems like they really didn't know. But why did Gandalf say "Its something ive never felt/seen before". If the Balrogs were wariiors of Morgoth, he must have heard of it at least in his Maiar-days.

    anyways, mods can close this thread, since its doulbe. Thank you for all the information. Can't watit to read the books!
    It is my understanding (could be wrong) that the balrogs only existed in middle earth. As far as we know Gandalf was never in middle earth until the 3rd age so he may never have seen a balrog before. It seems as if he should have a clue what it is and he should have heard of them before.

    When Saruman hints at what is in moria I don't believe they are talking about a balrog. They just know there is something evil and powerful down there (Durin's Bane). As far as I know very few knew what a balrog was who were left in middle earth.
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  6. #6
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    Well if you believe Bilbo was "fated" to find the ring and this was somehow divinely arranged by Iluvatar, then first they had to place the Balrog below Moria in order for the Moria dwarves to move to Erebor, then they had to arrange for Smaug to show up in order to place Bilbo in Gollums' cave at a time after Gollum looses his precious. So if the white council had acted against the evil in Moria when it first showed up, history would have been quite different.
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