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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    Well the elves did craft the rings of power, some of which seem to convey the power of invisability, (dont wish to debate whether its true invisability or entering the shadow world), in the hobbit such rings are desicribed as being common at one time, this would seem to qualify as flashy elemental magic.
    Not even slightly, you're grasping at straws there.

    The magical nature of the rings while undefined seems to have been important enough to fight the war between Sauron and the elves, The war of the last alliance and The war of the ring, if the rings have no "flashy elemental magical quality" which must have been imparted in their crafting with "flashy elemental magic" then there seems to have been considerable wasted energy in trying to get peoples hands on them. The palantir also would seem to require some flashy elemental magic to craft, so would glowing swords, (Eol made a "sentient" sword), even whipping up the phial of Galadrial, a light source with no batteries in under a week would seem to be flashy magic to me.
    You're muddling things up something awful, there. The One Ring was a weapon but not any sort of directly destructive one, its power was to dominate the wills of others. The Three Rings of the Elves weren't weapons of any sort, their power was to protect and preserve (this is explicitly stated in the books). The palantiri were basically just Tolkien's take on that most traditional of magical paraphenalia, the crystal ball and so what has that got to do with this? There's no connection between magical things being crafted slowly and patiently and being able to hurl elemental magic about on the spur of the moment in combat. In any case, just look at who it is who makes things like that. And the Phial of Galadriel isn't 'elemental' in any case: it's holding some of the light from a Silmaril, the one that's bound to Earendil's brow, and that's why evil things are hurt by it.

    So the question is can a crafter imbue a "flashy magical item" like Narya, which seems to aid Gandalf in his pyrotechniques eg flaming pine comes, lightning bolts in goblin town, blinding light at the rescue of Faramir at Pelenor whithout being able to perform the same abilities himself. Could Feanor "see" like a palantir, before building one, can a crafter who can greate a glowing sword whos power fills goblins with toal dread six millenia after its crafting have no flashy elemental power at his disposal?.
    Being able to craft magical items is not at all the same as being able to frazzle Orcs with bolts of lightning. Besides that, you're mistaking the metaphorical for the literal (Narya was not a weapon - it could 'rekindle' lost hope and courage in people's hearts), and putting way too much emphasis on The Hobbit (neglecting to notice that magic is handled differently in LOTR).

  2. #77
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    So out of interest Radhruin, what do you see as Galadriels role in the white councils assault on Dol Guldur?, do you see her putting on chainmail and sword, since you have precluded her from zapping stuff, or does she just run around screaming Elbereth?.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    So out of interest Radhruin, what do you see as Galadriels role in the white councils assault on Dol Guldur?, do you see her putting on chainmail and sword, since you have precluded her from zapping stuff, or does she just run around screaming Elbereth?.
    Let me put it this way: if Tolkien didn't have Luthien going around zapping anyone or anything, what makes you think Galadriel (who was less powerful than Luthien) would be any different? And yes, if Elf-lords are anything to go by she'd wear mail, yes she's carry a sword and likely a shield, too; we know Galadriel was strong and athletic. As to what powers she might have that'd be useful in battle, I can think of various things she might be able to do (terrify or disorient the defenders, maybe?) but the real question here is, why are you immediately assuming that it has to be 'zapping stuff'? Not only are you not thinking outside the box, you haven't even got the right box to start with. This is not generic fantasy.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Feb 04 2013 at 04:44 AM.

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    What is that supposed to show?
    Look at the temperatures alone, and you'll see what it's supposed to show. Mostly it show you know nothing of the mountains or survival therein. Talk to somebody who actually knows before you come in here and try and tell me. I know actual people in Search and Rescue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And as I pointed out, nobody sprays lightning around like that, nor makes casual use of it all the time, nor relies on it as their only means of offense. Nor is Gandalf 'people' (as in 'Free Peoples'), he's a Maia.
    You took it out of context, ignoring who it was. And of course you would do that, because there are no examples of the sort of thing you mean. It's simply not that sort of tale. End of.

    Books also don't show Aragorn eating breakfast everyday, doing his laundry, bathing...doesn't mean it didn't happen. The elves have magic, and just because they weren't known for putting on colorful displays doesn't mean it's not possible. But more than that, all the classes have magical or semi-magical things they can do which ordinary people with swords and axes shouldn't be able to do. So is the real problem the special effects rather than just singing somebody to sleep? And if it's such a problem why do you play this game when all the classes have broken lore in the strictest sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Gandalf's power, like Sauron's, was of a different order because he's a Maia, a higher order of being, more powerful than any Elf and so he could do things that no Elf could do. And if Gandalf could have slipped away from the Nazgul at Weathertop he would have done, but they'd cornered him and left him no option but to fight. There's no real scope for extrapolation from that to other, lesser beings doing that because it's quite evident that other, lesser beings don't. If this was that sort of sword-and-sorcery then magic would be used in battle routinely, which it most definitely is not. It is not a given for people to have destructive magic at their command, just because it's fantasy. All you're doing is what JGP mentioned above, thinking in terms of generic fantasy and ignoring the differences between that and Tolkien's work.


    That's bull. If Tolkien didn't want that type of magic in there, he would have simply had the eagles rescue Gandalf yet again or some similar trick that he employed through the novels. And I assure you that I understand well the differences. Tolkien's fantasy relies more on miracles of a sort such as a hobbit throwing a ring in a volcano, the idea that no man can kill the lord of the Nazgul so a woman does it instead, etc. rather than people actually having special abilities. My favorite one was the Nazgul just stabbing Frodo and then leaving him there with the Ring, thereby giving him a second chance, instead of just taking it. Would it really kill you to, while appreciating what Tolkien did, acknowledge there were obvious weaknesses in the stories?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    There's use of explosives in war as well as some destructive machinery to be found in LOTR, but there the source for them is the cruel inventiveness of fallen Maiar (i.e. Saruman and Sauron) rather than anybody else. The Hobbit was originally written as a stand-alone fairy-story, putting it in a different context where imagining wicked goblins inventing nasty devices fits right in, but that's entirely absent from Tolkien's more serious work. And regardless of that, it has no bearing whatsoever to do with the use of elemental magic. You're not seeing anything clearly, you're seeing everything reflected and distorted in the funhouse mirror that's over-commercialised generic fantasy, so let's have a little less talk from you about the 'big picture' here. Tolkien was aiming for something in the style of myth and legend, within which only seriously supernatural individuals are capable of any really powerful magic and things like calling down lightning are entirely reasonably limited to beings of near-godlike power. If you can't see the difference between that and the sort of setting where mere mages can hurl lightning around, you simply haven't been paying attention.
    Over-commercialized generic fantasy. Some of you really love that concept, don't you, even if LOTR is largely inspired by Norse mythology which you probably don't have the luxury of accusing as such, and yet displays some of the same elements. It would have made far more sense for the Valar to send these wizards to teach people new abilities rather than just talk them into forming armies one more time to finally deal with Sauron, something the Valar shoudl have dealt with themselves as they dealt with Melkor. Sauron gave power to his lieutenants? Why should not the Istari do the same? God forbid they should try and even the odds. Especially when one of the them has fallen under Sauron's sway, and two others have gone completely missing.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdBreakfast View Post
    Look at the temperatures alone, and you'll see what it's supposed to show. Mostly it show you know nothing of the mountains or survival therein. Talk to somebody who actually knows before you come in here and try and tell me. I know actual people in Search and Rescue.
    This is just so much waffle.

    Books also don't show Aragorn eating breakfast everyday, doing his laundry, bathing...doesn't mean it didn't happen. The elves have magic, and just because they weren't known for putting on colorful displays doesn't mean it's not possible. But more than that, all the classes have magical or semi-magical things they can do which ordinary people with swords and axes shouldn't be able to do. So is the real problem the special effects rather than just singing somebody to sleep? And if it's such a problem why do you play this game when all the classes have broken lore in the strictest sense?
    Elves having magic doesn't necessitate or even imply Elves hurling lightning. End of.

    That's bull. If Tolkien didn't want that type of magic in there, he would have simply had the eagles rescue Gandalf yet again or some similar trick that he employed through the novels. And I assure you that I understand well the differences. Tolkien's fantasy relies more on miracles of a sort such as a hobbit throwing a ring in a volcano, the idea that no man can kill the lord of the Nazgul so a woman does it instead, etc. rather than people actually having special abilities. My favorite one was the Nazgul just stabbing Frodo and then leaving him there with the Ring, thereby giving him a second chance, instead of just taking it. Would it really kill you to, while appreciating what Tolkien did, acknowledge there were obvious weaknesses in the stories?
    Tolkien said he'd used the Eagles to the absolute limit of their usefulness as it was, so that's a non-starter. And one thing his fantasy does not rely on is people hurling lightning around at the drop of a hat, all over the place. You say there are plot weaknesses, but how does that justify making it cheesy as well?

    Over-commercialized generic fantasy. Some of you really love that concept, don't you, even if LOTR is largely inspired by Norse mythology which you probably don't have the luxury of accusing as such, and yet displays some of the same elements.
    Sorry, don't recall Dwarves firing lightning at people in Norse myth either. As for Thor, well, the guy was a god and gods get to do outrageous things. That doesn't mean everyone gets in on the act. This is why everything you're saying about that is such baloney.

    It would have made far more sense for the Valar to send these wizards to teach people new abilities rather than just talk them into forming armies one more time to finally deal with Sauron, something the Valar shoudl have dealt with themselves as they dealt with Melkor. Sauron gave power to his lieutenants? Why should not the Istari do the same? God forbid they should try and even the odds. Especially when one of the them has fallen under Sauron's sway, and two others have gone completely missing.
    Because the Istari weren't supposed to do that. They were there to make sure that Sauron didn't have things all his own way, not to show off their power openly and encourage people to follow them. Besides which, such knowledge could prove dangerous in the long run. Saruman was turned, and if he could be then so could your imagined apprentices, and then what? Besides which, magical power was innate rather than learned so the Istari couldn't simply teach people to do what they did. As for the Valar dealing with Sauron, they'd given up on that sort of intervention after the War of Wrath because it was so spectacularly destructive. Sending in the Istari was a deliberately low-key way of dealing with the situation without wholesale devastation.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Let me put it this way: if Tolkien didn't have Luthien going around zapping anyone or anything, what makes you think Galadriel (who was less powerful than Luthien) would be any different? And yes, if Elf-lords are anything to go by she'd wear mail, yes she's carry a sword and likely a shield, too; we know Galadriel was strong and athletic. As to what powers she might have that'd be useful in battle, I can think of various things she might be able to do (terrify or disorient the defenders, maybe?) but the real question here is, why are you immediately assuming that it has to be 'zapping stuff'? Not only are you not thinking outside the box, you haven't even got the right box to start with. This is not generic fantasy.
    No where in my post do I offer my interpretation of what Galadriels role at Dol Guldur was, I merelly suggested that your view would be against seeing her "zapping" stuff, which I was correct in assuming, similarly when discussing the rings of power is said "The magical nature of the rings while undefined", nowhere did I describe them as weapons. You seem to have a bad habbit of misquoting and misrepresenting peoples views, which precludes civil discussion, and you have turned what used to be the most civil section of the forums into a vehicle for your bullying fundementalism.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    No where in my post do I offer my interpretation of what Galadriels role at Dol Guldur was, I merelly suggested that your view would be against seeing her "zapping" stuff, which I was correct in assuming, similarly when discussing the rings of power is said "The magical nature of the rings while undefined", nowhere did I describe them as weapons. You seem to have a bad habbit of misquoting and misrepresenting peoples views, which precludes civil discussion, and you have turned what used to be the most civil section of the forums into a vehicle for your bullying fundementalism.
    The magical powers of the Rings weren't wholly undefined, we know what they weren't destructive weapons, and that the Three Rings of the Elves weren't weapons at all. 'That is not their power', Elrond says, if I remember rightly. So in the context of this discussion, the RK and all its flashy, destructive, weaponised elemental magic, what was your point in even mentioning them? There's nothing to connect the two.

    You also made a pointedly sarcastic remark about what Galadriel could do since I'd 'precluded' her from zapping people. The clear implication of that is that you think she would go around zapping people, or else there'd have been no reason for you to take exception to what I was saying. And don't try and pretend you weren't being sarcastic, not with that bit about "does she just run around screaming Elbereth?" on the end.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    You seem to have a bad habbit of misquoting and misrepresenting peoples views, which precludes civil discussion, and you have turned what used to be the most civil section of the forums into a vehicle for your bullying fundementalism.
    If we are truly being accurate, I do not think that there is another person posting in this forum who has been bullied or insulted more than Radhruin. The reason for this: A defense of Tolkien as it stands in the written word and the implied desire that the essence of the Professor's works survive the translation into the forms of movies or games.

    I understand that there are many of you that prefer the watered down and puerile versions of Tolkien as represented by the concept of the Rune-Keeper. I will go on the record as saying that I do not and am in complete agreement with Radhurin on this issue.

    This is a Tolkien forum. A modicum of respect for the Professor and those who appreciate his work is the least that one should show before posting. For those who do not wish to do so, the marvelous and magical worlds of Dungeons and Dragons and World of Warcraft await you.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGP View Post
    If we are truly being accurate, I do not think that there is another person posting in this forum who has been bullied or insulted more than Radhruin. The reason for this: A defense of Tolkien as it stands in the written word and the implied desire that the essence of the Professor's works survive the translation into the forms of movies or games.

    I understand that there are many of you that prefer the watered down and puerile versions of Tolkien as represented by the concept of the Rune-Keeper. I will go on the record as saying that I do not and am in complete agreement with Radhurin on this issue.

    This is a Tolkien forum. A modicum of respect for the Professor and those who appreciate his work is the least that one should show before posting. For those who do not wish to do so, the marvelous and magical worlds of Dungeons and Dragons and World of Warcraft await you.
    I fully agree with you here. I was deceived over the nature of the RK in the beginning, but I did hold this position the entire time. Once I realized that we didn't have the same basic facts(difficult to debate when you don't start from the same place :-D ) I corrected my perception and found that Radhruin and I aligned nearly perfectly. Rad really is quite brave for standing up for his position, as most of the others who hold it are incapable of playing the game due to their annoyance. He is the one being bullied, not the bully.
    Lore-Monkey(not a Lore Guardian) and proud of it.

    .

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by JGP View Post
    If we are truly being accurate, I do not think that there is another person posting in this forum who has been bullied or insulted more than Radhruin. The reason for this: A defense of Tolkien as it stands in the written word and the implied desire that the essence of the Professor's works survive the translation into the forms of movies or games.

    I understand that there are many of you that prefer the watered down and puerile versions of Tolkien as represented by the concept of the Rune-Keeper. I will go on the record as saying that I do not and am in complete agreement with Radhurin on this issue.

    This is a Tolkien forum. A modicum of respect for the Professor and those who appreciate his work is the least that one should show before posting. For those who do not wish to do so, the marvelous and magical worlds of Dungeons and Dragons and World of Warcraft await you.
    Well said. We all know there's a game to go with this website and there are many forum categories here in which one can discuss and debate it's various aspects. This is the only forum that is intended to be devoted to the actual literature and the Author himself. For some of us these are very important books, right on par with works by Tolstoy, Twain, Kafka, etc. There's something important Tolkien is trying to say here, beyond the actual plot-line and it shouldn't be cheapened with the suggestion that it's just D&D type stuff. The man literally wrote thousands of pages about this world. He had the time and the paper to add as much magic as he wished into the tales but he didn't. A lack of outright denial does not validate something as fact. Take the entire scope of his writings into consideration, not just a few chosen moments.

    Peace all
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  11. #86
    Magic should be mostly subtle and rare in ME. I don't really like LM's or RK's much as they tend to kill the ME immersion for me. Those two classes seem to just be around to attract gamers that would whine because there is a lack of flashy spells in the game.

  12. #87
    [QUOTE/]
    Originally Posted by BotLike
    "I'd rather have RK's deleted : P ( Yeah absurd right ? )

    They have nothing to do with the lore , no matter how hard turbine tried to make us think so.
    In my eyes, it's just a flashy class , needed for every MMO : |

    If we ever get new race/class combos it should be Elf captains.

    Ow , and remove man lore-master too : * Makes no sense."

    Mellonbeleg

    "There are three types of magic in Middle Earth(in the books and from Tolkien)

    Music-Luthien Tinuviel and the Aniur who sang the whole thing to be in the first place.

    Nature(the subtle shaping thereof)-Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Cirdan the Shipwright.

    Language-Celebrimbor the ring smith, Fegulund, any elf or dwarf who uses magic without music or nature(all of the dwarven magic items)

    What are our three caster classes based off of the use of:Music, Nature, and Language.

    [/QUOTE]

    Silly Bot.... all caster classes are based based on this... but just to clarify, Tolkein ripped most of his world from the Norse and surrounding mythos, and Runes are norse....
    runo (cf. Old Norse run "a secret, magic sign, runic character,")
    Runes are the secret language of magic.

    And there you are wanting elf captains.... an elf cannot be a captain because an elf is a dwarf and a dwarf cannot be a captain. Whats that you say... elves are not dwarfs?
    In his The Book of Lost Tales, Tolkien develops a theme that the diminutive fairy-like race of Elves had once been a great and mighty people, and that as Men took over the world, these Elves had "diminished" themselves. This theme was influenced especially by the god-like and human-sized Ljósálfar of Norse mythology.... and if you check you will find that Elf and dwarf are the same in norse myth, ergo if a dwarf cannot be a captain, neither can a dwarf! HAHA! (if you do not understand the last line, read the paragraph again)

    Alfr is norse for elf, and as you notice is human character, the name would have been Ljosalfar which was my minstrel on another another server and not wanting to confuse myself, Alfr, a god-like human sized elf... go ahead, make a Elf of any class and call him a captain... do not reply on turbine to make all the fantasy for you, do some of it yourself.
    Last edited by crazyfoxx; Feb 15 2013 at 08:07 PM. Reason: addition
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  13. #88
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    Did I miss something?

    I kind of understand some people's arguments, BUT.....

    Since J.R.R. Tolkein did not write it, it does not fit...
    WHAT? Yes, Middle Earth is HUGE, with a LOT of content, but he did not write about everything. This would be impossible.

    Did he ever specifically write that it was impossible for someone in his world to exclusively use "Battle Magic"?

    Did he ever specifically write that a magic user cannot use a runestone to conjure his magic?

    Did he ever specifically write that a magic user cannot "shoot lightning from his fingers"?

    If the answers to this are "YES", then the RK does not fit. If the answers are "NO", then all that Turbine has done is create a class based on an area of what you call "lore" that hasn't been expounded on.

    Also, if the answers are "NO", the why are we arguing? It is up to the creators of the LOTRO "lore" to make whatever they will of it.

    And, it is up to us, as the consumers, to either go along with it(i.e. Continue to pay and/or play), or to reject it (i.e. shut down our accounts, uninstall the game, and allow LOTRO to go bankrupt).

    Since LOTRO and Turbine are still going strong, I guess we have made our choices.

    You can grumble about it if it makes you feel better, but this is the way things stand, and all it does is lower your enjoyment of the game to get so worked up.

    My 2 coppers on the subject!

  14. #89
    From what I recall of the books is that magic is fading along with the Elves during this time period....so there should not be a slew of casters running about. Dwarves were not casters from what I remember....though they did craft magical items. Most other magic was just blessings, curses, and visions. I have yet to see the shadow realm mentioned in this game. Of the wizards(Istari) in Middle Earth...there are only five.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BdxZjcGkac View Post
    I kind of understand some people's arguments, BUT.....

    Since J.R.R. Tolkein did not write it, it does not fit...
    WHAT? Yes, Middle Earth is HUGE, with a LOT of content, but he did not write about everything. This would be impossible.

    Did he ever specifically write that it was impossible for someone in his world to exclusively use "Battle Magic"?

    Did he ever specifically write that a magic user cannot use a runestone to conjure his magic?

    Did he ever specifically write that a magic user cannot "shoot lightning from his fingers"?

    If the answers to this are "YES", then the RK does not fit. If the answers are "NO", then all that Turbine has done is create a class based on an area of what you call "lore" that hasn't been expounded on.

    Also, if the answers are "NO", the why are we arguing? It is up to the creators of the LOTRO "lore" to make whatever they will of it.

    And, it is up to us, as the consumers, to either go along with it(i.e. Continue to pay and/or play), or to reject it (i.e. shut down our accounts, uninstall the game, and allow LOTRO to go bankrupt).

    Since LOTRO and Turbine are still going strong, I guess we have made our choices.

    You can grumble about it if it makes you feel better, but this is the way things stand, and all it does is lower your enjoyment of the game to get so worked up.

    My 2 coppers on the subject!
    By your logic, using machine guns, lightsabers, space ships and radioactivity-derived superpowers in LOTRO is fine too then, because
    1) Tolkien did not specificially write they were impossible to use
    2) Consumers like them



    Sometimes it's best not to say "he didn't write about X, so using X is fine.", but instead look at the available material and saying "X was written about, so X is fine, and a Y logically derived from X can probably be used as well because of Z written here."

    Or in this case; "Magic was written about, so magic is an element in the world, yet Tolkien stresses its diminished nature and subtlety, and that it can only be used in two ways. Therefore generic fingertip-lightning from certain other fantasy worlds are best put aside."
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  16. #91
    I personally have no problem with the Runekeeper as a game construct. To say it matches Tolkien's vision of ME is absurd, but I disagree with the arguments that dwarves were non-magical in nature.

    Tolkien's writings changed wholesale throughout his lifetime. The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are the only extant Middle Earth tales that he personally released, and the use of magic differs between the two markedly. In "Roast Mutton," the dwarves place "a great many spells" on the treasure they do not carry away from the troll hole. The map that Gandalf provides to Thorin is undoubtedly of Dwarvish make and contains "magical" runes that can only be read on a certain day by a certain moon. There is obviously mention of Dwarves casting spells and using runes in just the Hobbit, and the LOTR is a continuation of the Hobbit and solidifies the incidents that occur therein.

    If you return to partial works that were released posthumously, a dwarf curses the gold of Glaurung and indirectly causes the destruction of Doriath (in earlier versions printed in the Book of Lost Tales). He later changed this and the curse is omitted from the Silmarillion, but it again shows that Tolkien at least at some point saw Dwarves having potent magical powers.

    As to the magic of elves, and the people of the Valar, it is obvious that the use of "magic" diminishes them. Sauron puts his power into the ring and is totally unmade when it is destroyed. Galadriel is a shadow of her youth by the LOTR. Even the Valar are diminshed, such as when Yavanna is unable to recreate the trees devoured by Ungoliant, as she no longer has the power that she put into them.

    The Numenoreans, being born of half-elven blood, would presumably have had this reserve of power that elves had, though Tolkien himself never verbalized certainty of it to my knowledge ( a note to a letter he sent [156] has a question mark next to the idea of spells being cast by men on swords). Additionally, some men were given power directly or through relics by elvish or valar sources (the Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron). I see no possible argument for human loremasters.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdon1 View Post
    I personally have no problem with the Runekeeper as a game construct. To say it matches Tolkien's vision of ME is absurd, but I disagree with the arguments that dwarves were non-magical in nature.

    Tolkien's writings changed wholesale throughout his lifetime. The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are the only extant Middle Earth tales that he personally released, and the use of magic differs between the two markedly. In "Roast Mutton," the dwarves place "a great many spells" on the treasure they do not carry away from the troll hole. The map that Gandalf provides to Thorin is undoubtedly of Dwarvish make and contains "magical" runes that can only be read on a certain day by a certain moon. There is obviously mention of Dwarves casting spells and using runes in just the Hobbit, and the LOTR is a continuation of the Hobbit and solidifies the incidents that occur therein.
    Sorry, but that argument's bogus. The style of magic used in LOTR is different to that in The Hobbit - no more of the 'firework' style of magic from Gandalf, in particular - and so LOTR doesn't lend credence to its older sibling in so straightforward a manner. The two tales are presented differently, in different contexts and in different styles (The Hobbit was originally written as a stand-alone fairy-tale, LOTR as an epic with ties back to the Quenta Silmarillion). The thing to remember about Dwarves is that yes, they were magical but in specific ways: in crafting, above all, and in keeping their treasures hidden.

    If you return to partial works that were released posthumously, a dwarf curses the gold of Glaurung and indirectly causes the destruction of Doriath (in earlier versions printed in the Book of Lost Tales). He later changed this and the curse is omitted from the Silmarillion, but it again shows that Tolkien at least at some point saw Dwarves having potent magical powers.
    He changed his mind about a lot of things, you shouldn't simply pick the point that best suits whatever argument you're trying to make - what would matter here would be what he'd got in the back of his mind when writing LOTR. There's no sign of Dwarves possessing potent magical powers there, except as regards the things they made.

    The Numenoreans, being born of half-elven blood, would presumably have had this reserve of power that elves had, though Tolkien himself never verbalized certainty of it to my knowledge ( a note to a letter he sent [156] has a question mark next to the idea of spells being cast by men on swords). Additionally, some men were given power directly or through relics by elvish or valar sources (the Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron). I see no possible argument for human loremasters.
    The Numenoreans weren't collectively of Half-elven descent - you're thinking of the Line of Kings, there. On the whole, the Numenorean people were the descendants of the Edain who were blessed by the Valar after the War of Wrath - the first generation of children born on Numenor were different from their ordinary Edain parents, having been blessed with all that business of being very tall, long-lived and so on. There's a definite thread that on the whole Men weren't 'meant' to use magic - not divinely intended to do so - and that the sorcerers in Sauron's employ had effectively done the Middle-earth equivalent of a deal with the Devil in order to gain power. They're 'cheating', if you like, but it's evil and there's a price to be paid. So yeah, lore-wise, as a rule you shouldn't expect to find magicians among the good guys (at least, not among Men). That, of course, clashes wholesale with what's generally seen in modern fantasy and hence player expectations for a game like this - I've seen people really struggle with this or flat-out reject it because it's so different from what they're used to.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Feb 16 2013 at 07:10 AM.

  18. #93
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    The roots of the subject are far upstream, as Tolkien himself uses popular mythologies from North, Uk, Germany etc. You use quite references from the Silmarion for exemple, but this work until his last breath was subject to so many "remaniements" (sorry i'm french^^)/changes, reorganisations. As any creator does, he took what inspired him from what was already imagined, and push it his own way -without touching the essence of it. As it is a timeless, common tresor. And magic is a full part of it. As he said:
    « Ne vous mêlez pas des affaires des magiciens, car ils sont subtils et prompts à la colère. »
    (trad."don't mess up with magician business, because they are subtils and quick to anger.")

    In my opinion this game came as close as possible to reflect his wonderfull interpretation/mix/vision, of quite a few old myths,
    and the Rune keeper is just a succesfull interpretation/vision/mix of the ultimate sorcer: the writer himself (J.R.R.T.). His powerfull worlds will keep us alive and happy for everlasting.

    A Lotro friend and artist playing in the Sirannon server.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symbolika1 View Post
    In my opinion this game came as close as possible to reflect his wonderfull interpretation/mix/vision, of quite a few old myths,
    and the Rune keeper is just a succesfull interpretation/vision/mix of the ultimate sorcer: the writer himself (J.R.R.T.). His powerfull worlds will keep us alive and happy for everlasting.
    I'm afraid I must disagree on both points.
    This game isn't nearly as close as possible to reflect his vision, because the storyline, geography and lore are changed from his books so often and sometimes quite severely. Heck...even PJ's movie trilogy, which was pretty terrible in following the storyline, has now become a better reflection than this game imo.

    As for the RK class being an interpretation of the writer himself...
    a) What makes you think that? I don't see the analogy. They both use words to reshape reality, is that it?
    b) Why would a class be the writer? Especially when there are so many running around.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Sorry, but that argument's bogus. The style of magic used in LOTR is different to that in The Hobbit - no more of the 'firework' style of magic from Gandalf, in particular - and so LOTR doesn't lend credence to its older sibling in so straightforward a manner. The two tales are presented differently, in different contexts and in different styles (The Hobbit was originally written as a stand-alone fairy-tale, LOTR as an epic with ties back to the Quenta Silmarillion). The thing to remember about Dwarves is that yes, they were magical but in specific ways: in crafting, above all, and in keeping their treasures hidden.


    He changed his mind about a lot of things, you shouldn't simply pick the point that best suits whatever argument you're trying to make - what would matter here would be what he'd got in the back of his mind when writing LOTR. There's no sign of Dwarves possessing potent magical powers there, except as regards the things they made.


    The Numenoreans weren't collectively of Half-elven descent - you're thinking of the Line of Kings, there. On the whole, the Numenorean people were the descendants of the Edain who were blessed by the Valar after the War of Wrath - the first generation of children born on Numenor were different from their ordinary Edain parents, having been blessed with all that business of being very tall, long-lived and so on. There's a definite thread that on the whole Men weren't 'meant' to use magic - not divinely intended to do so - and that the sorcerers in Sauron's employ had effectively done the Middle-earth equivalent of a deal with the Devil in order to gain power. They're 'cheating', if you like, but it's evil and there's a price to be paid. So yeah, lore-wise, as a rule you shouldn't expect to find magicians among the good guys (at least, not among Men). That, of course, clashes wholesale with what's generally seen in modern fantasy and hence player expectations for a game like this - I've seen people really struggle with this or flat-out reject it because it's so different from what they're used to.
    You seem to forget or be ignorant of the fact that Tolkien continued to change his mind about things until he died. He was still changing the things he wrote between the Hobbit and the LOTR, and if he had written more fiction for public consumption, no doubt it would have changed more. That is one of things I was pointing out, and the argument was to make clear that saying that Dwarves were non-magical in Tolkien's mind is false: they clearly were meant to have some magical ability, albeit small.

    I did not say ALL Numenoreans were of half-elven decent, I said the ones "being born of half-elven blood." Don't put words in my mouth.

    I don't support the idea that RKs or even Lore-masters are canonical, but they make for a fun game that is richly tied to the complete works of Tolkien, start to finish, not just the LOTR. I think the fuss over them is frankly silly.

  21. #96
    Dwarves did have some magical ability but it was related to crafting...not spellcasting. And even artifact crafting was very rare among the dwarves. Other than Elves and the Istari there were no flashy caster types. Magic is fading out, which is why the Elves are going bye-bye.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdon1 View Post
    You seem to forget or be ignorant of the fact that Tolkien continued to change his mind about things until he died. He was still changing the things he wrote between the Hobbit and the LOTR, and if he had written more fiction for public consumption, no doubt it would have changed more. That is one of things I was pointing out, and the argument was to make clear that saying that Dwarves were non-magical in Tolkien's mind is false: they clearly were meant to have some magical ability, albeit small.
    Not at all. Tolkien did keep changing things, but the point is that if we're talking about LOTR, then what matters is his thought process in writing that book and not ideas he'd already discarded or ideas he'd yet to have. In turn, what you're still missing is that LOTR isn't a straight sequel to The Hobbit. I know you were saying that Dwarves were magical, I'm just pointing out that it was in a much more specific way than with the Elves. I don't recall anyone saying Dwarves were non-magical, as they obviously couldn't be if they could make neat stuff like, say, the Sword of Kings or the Nauglamir.

    I did not say ALL Numenoreans were of half-elven decent, I said the ones "being born of half-elven blood." Don't put words in my mouth.
    What you said implied they all were. If that wasn't what you meant, fair enough but don't say I'm putting words in your mouth. You said 'The Numenoreans, being born of helf-elven blood' and phrased that way that very much suggested you meant all of them.

    I don't support the idea that RKs or even Lore-masters are canonical, but they make for a fun game that is richly tied to the complete works of Tolkien, start to finish, not just the LOTR. I think the fuss over them is frankly silly.
    There's nothing about the RK that's tied to anything except generic fantasy. Hence the fuss. I thought I smelled a rat when you came out with that line about Dwarves 'using runes', as if that alone were sufficient to justify all the other nonsense.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Feb 16 2013 at 11:49 AM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Symbolika1 View Post
    The roots of the subject are far upstream, as Tolkien himself uses popular mythologies from North, Uk, Germany etc. You use quite references from the Silmarion for exemple, but this work until his last breath was subject to so many "remaniements" (sorry i'm french^^)/changes, reorganisations. As any creator does, he took what inspired him from what was already imagined, and push it his own way -without touching the essence of it. As it is a timeless, common tresor. And magic is a full part of it. As he said:
    « Ne vous mêlez pas des affaires des magiciens, car ils sont subtils et prompts à la colère. »
    (trad."don't mess up with magician business, because they are subtils and quick to anger.")

    In my opinion this game came as close as possible to reflect his wonderfull interpretation/mix/vision, of quite a few old myths,
    and the Rune keeper is just a succesfull interpretation/vision/mix of the ultimate sorcer: the writer himself (J.R.R.T.). His powerfull worlds will keep us alive and happy for everlasting.
    Two things there:

    - Tolkien himself didn't make the act of writing out to be magical in anything other than a poetic sense. He has runes being invented by an Elf for the simple purpose of writing things down, unlike the Norse version where runes were inherently magical and used by the gods themselves, with Odin having learnt the runes through great personal sacrifice. That's a huge contrast. Sometimes it's important to understand which bits of Northern myth he didn't borrow.

    - let's not forget that whatever flowery imagery you try to wrap round it, it still involves Elves and Dwarves blasting Orcs with lightning, something which is miles away from anything Tolkien wrote about and painfully contemporary rather than 'timeless'. The RK is a comic-book style sorcerer, and oddly enough JRRT wasn't writing a comic-book.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mellonbeleg View Post
    First, I thank Hallasan for agreeing with me that we all really agree that, in concept, the runekeeper fits in the lore, and the only argument is how far it is from fitting in actuality and for realizing that this thread was designed to debate that, not the Lore V. "good game" stuff which belongs elsewhere.
    Wow, talk about delusional. There is NO way the runekeeper fits in the lore. Loremasters are pretty much a break with lore too but nowhere near as bad as RKs -- and I'd willingly give up my LM if they deleted RKs tomorrow. RKs annoy me even more than Turbine continuing to draw a distinction between orcs and goblins in the game. There is absolutely nothing about the runekeeper based in the lore other than the word "rune". The dwarves and elves inscribed runes into objects to mark them and sometimes to imbue them with innate power but they did NOT throw curses, argue with animals or fart lightning.

    The black powder used as a storyline in North Downs fits the lore, throwing fireballs BARELY fits (if you're Gandalf, wearing the Ring of Fire and using pine cones as a base for your fireballs) -- calling down lightning or any of the other garbage doesn't. The RK was introduced because some idiots thought this game needed the traditional "glass cannon" to draw in customers -- not because they'd read The Hobbit, TLOTR or any of Christopher Tolkien's collections of his father's works -- and it shows.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000003f4e4/01007/signature.png]Felaguin[/charsig]

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felaguin View Post
    Wow, talk about delusional. There is NO way the runekeeper fits in the lore. Loremasters are pretty much a break with lore too but nowhere near as bad as RKs -- and I'd willingly give up my LM if they deleted RKs tomorrow. RKs annoy me even more than Turbine continuing to draw a distinction between orcs and goblins in the game. There is absolutely nothing about the runekeeper based in the lore other than the word "rune". The dwarves and elves inscribed runes into objects to mark them and sometimes to imbue them with innate power but they did NOT throw curses, argue with animals or fart lightning.

    The black powder used as a storyline in North Downs fits the lore, throwing fireballs BARELY fits (if you're Gandalf, wearing the Ring of Fire and using pine cones as a base for your fireballs) -- calling down lightning or any of the other garbage doesn't. The RK was introduced because some idiots thought this game needed the traditional "glass cannon" to draw in customers -- not because they'd read The Hobbit, TLOTR or any of Christopher Tolkien's collections of his father's works -- and it shows.
    I explained this later on, and took a whole lot of flack before I did. I am not writing it out again. Please continue reading.
    I agree that the RK does not fit in implementation.
    Lore-Monkey(not a Lore Guardian) and proud of it.

    .

 

 
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