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  1. #1
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    Jul 2012
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    Red face Add Female Dwarves

    Hello people of Lotro, i have seen the The Hobbit Movie and it was awesome, but that's not the point.
    At the beginning when bilbo tell his story i saw something, there were female Dwarves, so they exist.
    The only have side-whiskers, no beard and no mustache.. That's what i wanted to say, and i hope you like my idea.

    In this link you can see the intro with the female dwarves at 1:50 and 1:53

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...female-dwarves

  2. #2
    We are already here


    Posie in the Vile Maw by wenxue2222, on Flickr


    ScreenShot01135 by wenxue2222, on Flickr
    Fight on my dwavern sisters! May the orc blood always wash right out your frilly dresses.

  3. #3
    Notice that The Hobbit also portrays male dwarves with a staggering absence of full beard...

    Since Tolkiens writings actually say that outsiders simply do not see the difference between male and female dwarves, it would be wrong to actually have looks available to one but not the other.

    I do however strongly support the option to chose gender for your dwarf, in order to affect gender-refering in-game dialog.

    The way I would do it would be to add the gender choice at character creation (with no visual distinction, no different hair or beard options), and then have in-game dialog modified so that dwarf NPC:s will refer to you as your identified gender, while non-dwarf NPC:s would assume you're male.

  4. #4
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    It even clashes with the movie of The Two Towers:


  5. #5
    Those were not dwarves, they were humans. See that is the City of Dale, which is full of humans. Erebor is where the dwarves lived. And the smaller people in Dale, were children.

  6. #6
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    No she is a dwarf, she was there to trade, and if you see the movie at the moment that dwarfs flee the mountian you can see at the background female dwarves run.
    Last edited by NlGuy15; Jan 02 2013 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #7
    I remember Grandma Daisynelle Stonemug telling me all about it when I was just a small dwarf and my beard only fine stubble. There was a terrible rush to save the ale.

    Alas many fine kegs perished that day
    Fight on my dwavern sisters! May the orc blood always wash right out your frilly dresses.

  8. #8
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    Jul 2012
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    And if they add female dwarves its the best to add al the beards of the men dwarfes and side-whiskers to, fore those wo don't want a beard as a female dwarf.

  9. #9
    It's lore that non-dwarf folks can't tell the difference between the guys and gals. I wouldn't be surprised if Gimli was a lady, unless there's a specific reference that says otherwise.
    It would be nice if there was the option in the character creation screen if there were no visual variations - with the exception of maybe just a few whiskers for the ladies.
    But if the lady dwarfs have significantly bigger boobs and more feminine features, that would be defeating the lore. Non-dwarfs would be able to recognize the guys from the gals, and that would break the lore from how I understand it.

  10. #10
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    Nov 2007
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    129
    "In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien writes that they breed slowly, for no more than a third of them are female, and not all marry; also, female Dwarves look and sound (and dress, if journeying—which is rare) so alike to Dwarf-males that other folk cannot distinguish them, and thus others wrongly believe Dwarves grow out of stone. Tolkien names only one female, Dís. In The War of the Jewels Tolkien says both males and females have beards."

    Thus the movies are pretty lorebreaking (duh) and there are some definite limits to what the game can do and stay within the limits of the lore. A) Female dwarves don't travel much, if at all. B)The look and sound just like the males. C)Other folk can't tell the difference anyways!

    :P
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0e21500000003dfd3/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  11. #11
    This - female Dwarves don't fight, and don't even travel unless there's dire necessity. They're too rare to risk their lives by sending them to war. Thus, Dwarf women as anything other than NPCs in safe places would be lorebreaking.

    (Of course, you're free to roleplay your Dwarf as a female, keeping the above in mind.)
    Last edited by Norliriel; Jan 02 2013 at 10:56 AM.

  12. #12
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    When asking for female dwards, please also include male dwarfs too in that request!

    You might sneak a look at the char creation screen: there is no gender selection for dwarfs..
    gender remains unspecified, leaving you free to RP your character as you wish.
    Since dwarfs no matter which gender look the same, all is as it should be

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NlGuy15 View Post
    Hello people of Lotro, i have seen the The Hobbit Movie and it was awesome, but that's not the point.
    At the beginning when bilbo tell his story i saw something, there were female Dwarves, so they exist.
    The only have side-whiskers, no beard and no mustache.. That's what i wanted to say, and i hope you like my idea.

    In this link you can see the intro with the female dwarves at 1:50 and 1:53

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...female-dwarves
    That is what you saw in the MOVIE.

    In the BOOKS, Tolkien says that female Dwarves look so much like the males that members of the other races cannot tell the difference.

    Female Dwarves, being few in number, generally stay in their caverns where they're safe -- but of course nobody's safe anywhere in Middle-earth here in the last days of the Third Age. So when female Dwarves go traveling, they present themselves as males, and nobody is the wiser. (How male Dwarves would tell the difference, I don't know. Pheromones, maybe?)

    If you want to play a female Dwarf, make a Dwarf character, tell yourself she is female, and don't tell anybody else.

    I did that for a while; but my female Dwarf was a Rune-keeper and I could not make the character work. So I let her go back into the Ewigkeit.

    An indication that Turbine got it right: there's a Dwarf NPC in Noglond who occasionally says to another NPC, "My wife's gone up to Thorin's Hall to get her beard braided."
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuuma View Post
    It's lore that non-dwarf folks can't tell the difference between the guys and gals. I wouldn't be surprised if Gimli was a lady, unless there's a specific reference that says otherwise.
    It would be nice if there was the option in the character creation screen if there were no visual variations - with the exception of maybe just a few whiskers for the ladies.
    But if the lady dwarfs have significantly bigger boobs and more feminine features, that would be defeating the lore. Non-dwarfs would be able to recognize the guys from the gals, and that would break the lore from how I understand it.
    I believe that during the Council of Elrond Gimli is introduced as 'Gimli, Son of Gloin' but I have not read the books recently.

  15. #15
    In times of war gender roles are often thrown out of the window. Look at what women did in WWII. They were flying planes, spying - all kinds of things that took them away from their traditional roles. Is it not possible that the war in Middle Earth has had the same effect on Dwarven women?
    Fight on my dwavern sisters! May the orc blood always wash right out your frilly dresses.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    I believe that during the Council of Elrond Gimli is introduced as 'Gimli, Son of Gloin' but I have not read the books recently.
    That is correct. Gloin was one of Thorin Oakenshield's companions, and at the Council he brings with him his son Gimli, who winds up going south with the Fellowship. Gimli's mother is never mentioned, and in fact the only female Dwarf Tolkien names is Dis, who was the sister of Thorin and the mother of Fili and Kili. Hence the matter-of-fact statement at the end of The Hobbit: "Of the twelve companions of Thorin, ten remained. Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mother's eldest brother."

    This is a very Old Norse behavior; and if you have (as Dwarves have, because of their low female/male ratio) few kinsfolk, they are important to you.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosiebelle View Post
    In times of war gender roles are often thrown out of the window. Look at what women did in WWII. They were flying planes, spying - all kinds of things that took them away from their traditional roles. Is it not possible that the war in Middle Earth has had the same effect on Dwarven women?
    True. Although in WWII women were not allowed to go into combat.

    And after the war, when the men came home, they got their jobs back and the women were relegated to housekeeping and motherhood again; and indeed many of them were glad to go, having learned that most jobs are not exciting careers, they're just dumb jobs. It took American women decades to bounce back from that. Cf. The Feminine Mystique for a look at American women's life in the 1950s.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosiebelle View Post
    In times of war gender roles are often thrown out of the window. Look at what women did in WWII. They were flying planes, spying - all kinds of things that took them away from their traditional roles. Is it not possible that the war in Middle Earth has had the same effect on Dwarven women?
    But in this case we have to go after what the author wrote, so no.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    I did that for a while; but my female Dwarf was a Rune-keeper and I could not make the character work. So I let her go back into the Ewigkeit.
    OOC: where did you get this last word from? In German, it means Eternity.

    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    An indication that Turbine got it right: there's a Dwarf NPC in Noglond who occasionally says to another NPC, "My wife's gone up to Thorin's Hall to get her beard braided."
    Not only that; when you pass the statue on Frerin's square, you can see a dwarf pondering if (s)he should have her beard braided into five strands. I was really surprised to find a dwarf that made a fuss about her outer appearance.


    Greetings, Polymachos

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosiebelle View Post
    In times of war gender roles are often thrown out of the window. Look at what women did in WWII. They were flying planes, spying - all kinds of things that took them away from their traditional roles. Is it not possible that the war in Middle Earth has had the same effect on Dwarven women?
    Not at all likely, because traditional warfare wouldn't require that sort of total commitment by the populace to the war effort. That sort of modern mass warfare and the accompanying huge shifts in gender roles at home didn't occur until the First World War, and not straight away even then (I've just finished reading G J Meyer's A World Undone: The Story of the Great War 1914-1918, which I recommend to any fellow armchair historians out there). As far as LOTR goes, the War of the Ring is over pretty quickly, it's not like it had chance to grind on for years and force women to take on more and more of the roles that men had done previously.

    TL;DR: not really, it's not that sort of war...

  21. #21
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    You know, I don't understand how there are NOT any dwarf women. If there were no dwarf women, then how on Middle-Earth could the dwarves reproduce over thousands of years? It's possible that dwarf society was extremely patriarchal and dwarf women were hardly presented as important as their male counterparts; much like European society in the 18-19th centuries where women were hardly mentioned in academic writing. I think it shameful that Turbine still use this view simply under the pretext that it's lore-breaking to not add dwarf women just because they were not mentioned as much as dwarven males. Of course, there were genders! Just because dwarves may look alike doesn't mean there is NO gender.
    [CENTER][I]Mephistopholes - Level 100 Champion (Focus: Tank)
    ~Never Alone~[/I][/CENTER]

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymachos View Post
    OOC: where did you get this last word from? In German, it means Eternity.
    Yes. I got it from Dorothy L. Sayers's novel Gaudy Night. In a context where a lot of people are running around at random at night (details supplied only on request), one of the characters says, "I tried to find {Name}, but she had gone off into the Ewigkeit." I don't know if Sayers invented the use of 'Eternity' to mean "I don't know where", or whether it was common usage in the 1930s when she was writing, but I like it.

    ["My wife's gone off to get her beard braided...."]

    Not only that; when you pass the statue on Frerin's square, you can see a dwarf pondering if (s)he should have her beard braided into five strands. I was really surprised to find a dwarf that made a fuss about her outer appearance.
    And at that, we don't know that that's a female Dwarf. He could be a male Dwarf who's just concerned with being neatly groomed.

    If you've done the Fall of Moria instance, you'll remember that Durin the Sixth and (so far) Last has a long flowing beard with a braid in its central strands. Very becoming.

    In the very early days of the Society for Creative Anachronism, I knew a guy who had long hair and a long beard and an early Welsh persona. He wore his beard in one braid and his hair in two, and somebody drew a cartoon showing him angrily brandishing a very large axe and saying, "No, I DON'T want a 'widdle wed wibbon' for my braids!!"
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephistophelis View Post
    You know, I don't understand how there are NOT any dwarf women. If there were no dwarf women, then how on Middle-Earth could the dwarves reproduce over thousands of years? It's possible that dwarf society was extremely patriarchal and dwarf women were hardly presented as important as their male counterparts; much like European society in the 18-19th centuries where women were hardly mentioned in academic writing. I think it shameful that Turbine still use this view simply under the pretext that it's lore-breaking to not add dwarf women just because they were not mentioned as much as dwarven males. Of course, there were genders! Just because dwarves may look alike doesn't mean there is NO gender.
    More to the point, as I said upthread, Dwarven women are very few in number. Let me find the cite:

    /e heads off to the bookshelf....

    Dis was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other people cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'

    It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.
    --The Return of the King, Appendix A, subsection "Of the Dwarves"

    So if you want to RP a female Dwarf, you must assume that she's left her secure dwelling either out of necessity (because it was attacked by orcs or Dourhands or something) or out of an unusual degree of wanderlust. She will wear male garb, and braid her beard or not as the fancy takes her, and no member of any other race will suspect a thing.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephistophelis View Post
    I don't understand how there are NOT any dwarf women
    Turbine have never said there aren't any, so far as I recall. It's just that from our PoV (as we're not Dwarves!) we simply can't tell which ones are male and which are female, and the Dwarves wouldn't be in any hurry to point out their women to outsiders, either.

  25. #25
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    There is a reason why there is no gender selection on the character creation screen for all the lore reasons stated above.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

 

 
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