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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The nudity is optional (she could be shown as wearing rags rather than being entirely naked, it's not essential to the plot). Scenes of battle don't seem to be a problem for PG-13 provided there's no ultraviolence so yes, in general PG-13 looks doable (just as it was for LOTR, without losing anything). The one thing that does make me wonder is the psychological horror of Turin and Nienor's situation - incest is very powerful and disturbing stuff thematically because it's taboo, and such a movie would have to pull no punches when it came to psychological impact on the audience, it's all or nothing with such a darkly tragic tale. Bit of a problem regarding the intended audience, thoigh - would a general audience or people who were simply LOTR fans really be up for something so unremittingly grim?
    Oh I don't know, Game of Thrones seems to be doing fine with it.
    Besides, we've already had the triple-incest of Aragorn and Arwen's union.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Oh I don't know, Game of Thrones seems to be doing fine with it.
    GoT is hardly PG-13 material, is it? And GRRM's work is consistently full of all manner of nastiness, large and small; by contrast, what happens to Turin and Nienor is far, far darker than is typical of Tolkien's tales (and even stands out among the Sil's general doom and gloom) and hence is not at all what people might expect. It's like the twist in Park Chan-wook's Oldboy, which is likewise midnight dark and grim.

    Besides, we've already had the triple-incest of Aragorn and Arwen's union.
    Sorry, what? They're related at such a distant remove (umpteen generations) that it can hardly be called that.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    GoT is hardly PG-13 material, is it?
    I don't know, I have no idea how it's rated over there.


    And GRRM's work is consistently full of all manner of nastiness, large and small; by contrast, what happens to Turin and Nienor is far, far darker than is typical of Tolkien's tales (and even stands out among the Sil's general doom and gloom) and hence is not at all what people might expect. It's like the twist in Park Chan-wook's Oldboy, which is likewise midnight dark and grim.
    Certainly.


    Sorry, what? They're related at such a distant remove (umpteen generations) that it can hardly be called that.
    But wouldn't it be great if those 3 generations of incest caused Aragorn's kids to have physical and/or mental dificulties? I can just imagine the next mouth-breathing monarch of the Reunited Kingdom constantly falling over where he stands.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    I don't know, I have no idea how it's rated over there.
    It's hardly like GoT is a borderline case - lots of nudity and graphic violence. It's rated 'TV MA' in the US, i.e. for mature audiences. Over here in the UK the DVD boxed set is rated '18'. So not family fare, yes? The LOTR movies were rated '12' here. That's what I was getting at, people aren't used to the idea of Tolkien's stuff containing the sort of seriously twisted malevolence that Glaurung inflicts on Turin and Nienor. In GoT, everyone expects it because it's got a well-deserved reputation.

    But wouldn't it be great if those 3 generations of incest caused Aragorn's kids to have physical and/or mental dificulties? I can just imagine the next mouth-breathing monarch of the Reunited Kingdom constantly falling over where he stands.
    Three generations? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there, it'd have been hundreds of generations of Men since Elrond and Elros went their separate ways so Aragorn and Arwen were cousins in only the vaguest possible sense. Joking aside it tends to take consistent inbreeding over many generations to really mess things up - you can see that in the real-life example of how weird the Habsburg dynasty eventually became, it took a while for the oddities to surface.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's hardly like GoT is a borderline case - lots of nudity and graphic violence. It's rated 'TV MA' in the US, i.e. for mature audiences. Over here in the UK the DVD boxed set is rated '18'. So not family fare, yes? The LOTR movies were rated '12' here. That's what I was getting at, people aren't used to the idea of Tolkien's stuff containing the sort of seriously twisted malevolence that Glaurung inflicts on Turin and Nienor. In GoT, everyone expects it because it's got a well-deserved reputation.
    Waw, I had no idea it was rated thusly in US/UK.


    Three generations? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there, it'd have been hundreds of generations of Men since Elrond and Elros went their separate ways so Aragorn and Arwen were cousins in only the vaguest possible sense. Joking aside it tends to take consistent inbreeding over many generations to really mess things up - you can see that in the real-life example of how weird the Habsburg dynasty eventually became, it took a while for the oddities to surface.
    You misunderstand me, I did not mean three generations in Aragorn's line (which would not make a difference in the 42 generations of his ancestors since Elros), but in Arwen's.
    But you're quite right, Aragorn's bloodline should be sufficiently diluted over the generations to not pose a problem.


    ... but it'd still be funny if it did.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    You misunderstand me, I did not mean three generations in Aragorn's line (which would not make a difference in the 42 generations of his ancestors since Elros), but in Arwen's.
    Oh, I see what you mean now

    Thing is, Arwen had obviously turned out okay (and then some), and apparently genetically speaking a bit of inbreeding does little harm and may even do some good (because some shared traits can be beneficial), so there you go. Doesn't exactly come recommended but it seems you can get away with it... up to a point.

  7. #57
    It seems to me that the Tale of the Children of Hurin, in order to make an overall good arc with some really dark spots to it instead of a full on tragedy (which, as has been pointed out, is not the average Tolkien fare), would be better told in visual media as a tale encompassing the fortunes of the House of Hador in general. That would encompass the coming of Men to Beleriand, Hurin and Huor's visit to Gondolin and their subsequent capture and death respectively at the Nirnaeth, the lives of their two children, the Fall of both Nargothrond and Gondolin, and the rise of Earendil, ending in the War of Wrath. Call it the legend of Earendil, perhaps, and interweave it with Beren and Luthien and the Fall of Doriath? That would be the hook, people even from the movies know the name even if they don't know why the Elves hold such reverence for a star. Tell of the destruction of the two trees in retrospect, showing only Morgoth, Ungoliant and the trees, the slaying of Finwe at Formenos and Feanor's subsequent overreaction and the Noldor's flight. I think doing it that way would give an overall hopeful arc (from even the worst can come good) and allow you to touch on all of the high and low points of the Silmarillion without having to delve too much into the creation mythos, which I agree would likely be unfilmable. Well, that's what I think anyway.

    It would have to be a TV series, one that spans many seasons. Otherwise, don't even bother. I won't bother to see any movie made of the Sil.

  8. #58
    I'd rather watch http://www.stormovergondolin.com/ than a Peter Jackson or Hollywood version.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by druidofbreeland View Post
    I'd rather watch http://www.stormovergondolin.com/ than a Peter Jackson or Hollywood version.
    That website have no date of release, so did they already started filming? Are they still filming? Are they done? Do you know any estimate time about when they will be done?

  10. #60
    No I do not know any of those things. On the very first page there's a video diary (the first one) from September of this year. This tells me the project is still in its infancy, in fact, their facebook page (link on the website) says they're still in pre-production. So it may still well be a while before it comes to full fruition, but that is still quicker than anything "official" we'd get.

  11. #61
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    Well, thanks, i keep an eye. I hope it result in a nicely done movie & that none one jump over them about copyrights...

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    . Joking aside it tends to take consistent inbreeding over many generations to really mess things up - you can see that in the real-life example of how weird the Habsburg dynasty eventually became, it took a while for the oddities to surface.

    I had to Google that family, I had never heard of them. Wow, inbreeding led to their extinction. Is there a website or actual book that with detailed information on their history? Wiki just has an abridged version. I'm a major history freak and would love to know more.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  13. #63
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I had to Google that family, I had never heard of them. Wow, inbreeding led to their extinction. Is there a website or actual book that with detailed information on their history? Wiki just has an abridged version. I'm a major history freak and would love to know more.
    Here is some reliable resource but the website is heavy about genetics. You will need a text book beside you if is not your specialization.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal .pone.0005174
    Let me mention that Habsburg was not the only royal family, with severe genetical defects, reinforced by inbreeding. Royal families are a scientist favorite resource, to study all sort of mutations, that normally will be wiped of the population by natural selection.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Nov 01 2013 at 12:07 AM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I had to Google that family, I had never heard of them. Wow, inbreeding led to their extinction. Is there a website or actual book that with detailed information on their history? Wiki just has an abridged version. I'm a major history freak and would love to know more.
    Perhaps you may have heard of them when I say they are either the ancestors of or married into nearly every european monarchy that exists and has existed in the past 500 years. In your high school history classes they will have likely popped up everywhere, but with different names as the the names of the royal houses would be combined.
    For example my current monarch (Belgian) is a descendant the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which combined the family names of the two greatest duchies in its recent history. But this family branch styled themselves "of Belgium" rather than "of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" since the first World War to distance themselves from their german ancestry, as did the British monarchy (half a century earlier they too had a king of the same house and name). They are related to various other imperial and royal houses(*), including imperial House Habsburg, but that one is left out because it just wasn't recent enough to have any meaning. In contrast the most recent addition, a 'mere' noble house of baron d'Udekem d'Acoz, isn't added to the royal house name because it isn't important enough. Plus they have sort of stopped the whole combining house names here, they simply keep it at "of Belgium".


    (*) Most notably the imperial Houses Bonaparte, Reuss and Romanov (France, Holy Roman Empire and Russia respectively) and royal Houses Bernadotte (Sweden), Bourbon (France), Savoye (Italy), Windsor (Britain), Sleeswijk-Holstein (Danish and Norse), Wittelsbach (Bavaria), Bragança (Portugal), Wettin (Germany), and various smaller royal and noble houses. This was in a time when royalty and nobility interbred as much as possible to both maintain and expand their wealth (what good is marrying into a poor family?), and because they were divinely chosen rules and thus couldn't be seen mingling with commoners. >.>
    As Yamide correctly points out, they are a favourite study subject on genetic mutations because they have had a lot of inbreeding but without most of the natural selective stress that goes with it. They just required to produce children before they die, everything else was done for them.

  15. #65
    I would love a movie focusing on the Secone Age and Numenor. It could have a prologue like FotR where they establish past events such as Morgoth, Sauron, and the War of Wrath. I think it would be amazing to see Numenor on the big screen. There are a lot of people and events that tie directly into LotR like Sauron, the rings, Isildur, Elendil, etc. The climactic battle of the film could be the Last Alliance, and although they would probably have to go with the bastardized version shown in the FotR prologue, it would still be cool to see. They wouldn't even have to show Isildur getting killed later. Just showing him riding off with the ring would be ominous enough.

    One of the scenes that I would absolutely love to see in movie form is the part where Sauron is sitting in the temple to Morgoth that he erected in Numenor basically laughing that he just sent the Numenoreans to their doom. And then the entire island just gets nuked along with him.

  16. #66
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    I hate the LOTR movies in comparison to the books. I'm so glad it'll take that long before they destroy the greatest novel on the face of the earth. Wish it would be longer. I'd rather be dead by the time they do it. They should wait until 2073 at the average human lifespan.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    I have nothing good to say about Peter Jackson's moviemaking lately other than that he can make entertainment. Light and fluffy but mostly entertaining. This sells. He has no fixed goal from the investors who make the movies happen, other than to sell and sell well. Preservation of some sort of Tolkien legacy is not part of the agenda.

    Blatant alterations, omissions, extra storylines out of the blue and downright misunderstanding of the Tolkien text was bound to happen, and it did.

    Not a bad thing from a money-making point of view but not so good from the viewpoint of someone like me who is obsessing over the original written content. It's entertaining but it's not Tolkien. That's OK.
    I don't think what Tolkien was aiming for when he wrote The Lord of the Rings was so far from 'entertainment.'

 

 
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