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  1. #1
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    So Wargs what say you about Crit Defence?

    So since RoR ive been trying many different builds, recently settled on a damage/morale hybrid:

    Damage for power 2, health for power 1-2, Mastery boosts for the rest. Its really a middle of the road build and it keeps me alive long enough when im in the freep ball to get some heals while in rvr so its serving its purpose. Now Im not going to profess expertise on the new changes with U9 to crit defense. However my understand is (the dumbed down version) Criticals will occur more often but you will protect against them thus balancing out the damage overall.


    From the diary:

    By making this change, we can maintain protections against spike damage, while increasing the reliability of Critical mechanics.
    So are you slotting crit protection? I normally like to run a burst damage warg set up, even the hybird build I have now is not my preferred build but you do what you must. Id like to know what other wargs around the moors are slotting these days and how its working for you.

    Thor

  2. #2
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    I've gone for full crit defence ... it's called a warg pack. The freeps are dead before they can hit us and so far it seems to have significantly reduced incoming critical damage.

  3. #3
    My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think I remember hearing that the DR was pretty hard on crit defense so the the next "slice" of it was only 25% as effective as the first. If this carrys through to the new system then I believe that raw mitigation would still be better.

    Think of it this way if 5% mitigation was compared to 5% crit mitigation then 5% mitigation would be better just because it effects crits and non crits whereas crit mitigation only effects crits. Also crit defense may only apply 1 out of every 4 hits in a high crit scenario.

    ^These are just my musing on it, don't take any of that as fact so keep the discussion going. Maybe someone could comment on that DR as well to see if i'm right or wrong.

    Maybe someone familiar with the dmg/mitigation equations can roll out some scenarios.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 19 2012 at 10:14 AM.
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  4. #4
    I traited today all 6 crit defence corruptions just to try it out, i had only 15k morale, but the crits from freeps were realy low. Here is an example: Random champ scored a critical hit with Remorseless Strike on Kutyaa for 1,080 Beleriand damage to Morale.
    [center][color=#1F45FC]Rathregraw R10 Hunter ~ Chayse R6 Cappy ~ Lummen-1 R9 RK ~ Chesterr R6 WRD ~ Bammeg R7 Burg [/color]
    [color=#FF0000]Kutyaa R12 Warg ~ Bammeg-1 R11 BA ~ Krashbar R8 Reaver ~ Djangoo R7 Deffy [/color][/center]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    I've gone for full crit defence ... it's called a warg pack. The freeps are dead before they can hit us and so far it seems to have significantly reduced incoming critical damage.
    No warg packs on the server Im on currently, not enough people to do it. My preference would be to be in a warg pack all the time but not in the cards unless I transfer, but point definately taken.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathregraw View Post
    I traited today all 6 crit defence corruptions just to try it out, i had only 15k morale, but the crits from freeps were realy low. Here is an example: Random champ scored a critical hit with Remorseless Strike on Kutyaa for 1,080 Beleriand damage to Morale.
    How was your damage though? See the issue for me is in my current circumstance Im grouping more and am DPS RvR. I need to be able to good DPS, Im getting heals, Im dying its a good run actually Im not complaining. Ill need to either drop morale or drop DPS bonus's for this crit defence.

    I havent convinced myself to do it yet, will test more this weekend I suppose.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    How was your damage though? See the issue for me is in my current circumstance Im grouping more and am DPS RvR. I need to be able to good DPS, Im getting heals, Im dying its a good run actually Im not complaining. Ill need to either drop morale or drop DPS bonus's for this crit defence.

    I havent convinced myself to do it yet, will test more this weekend I suppose.
    I didnt test it with combat analysis, but the damage numbers were sightly lower, if u like to go for full dps than its not the best choice to trait it imo.
    [center][color=#1F45FC]Rathregraw R10 Hunter ~ Chayse R6 Cappy ~ Lummen-1 R9 RK ~ Chesterr R6 WRD ~ Bammeg R7 Burg [/color]
    [color=#FF0000]Kutyaa R12 Warg ~ Bammeg-1 R11 BA ~ Krashbar R8 Reaver ~ Djangoo R7 Deffy [/color][/center]

  8. #8
    Here are some tests that I just did. All on the light dummy.

    All tests were done in shadow stance, and until I ran out of power.

    First test used my build from last update.

    HfD2, HfP2, 2 Masteries, 2 Tact mits

    Time: 1.5 min
    Health: 20,023
    Power: 4,527
    DPS: 818.9
    Max attack: 1,921
    Crits: 27.3%
    Devs: 4.6%

    I'll probably switch the 2 tact mits for 2 crit protects. I have 50.6% with 2 slotted and 40.7% base. Changing the tact mits won't change my dps so I didn't test it.

    With a full crit protect corruption build, here're my stats. I have 63% crit defense.

    Time: 1.5 min
    Health: 16,548
    Power: 4,765
    DPS: 752.4
    Max attack: 1,551
    Crits: 25.9%
    Devs: 3.5%

    Seeing the severe DR on the crit defense corruptions, I'll probably only take 2 like I said above. 50.6% is good enough atm.

    Also, I don't like the idea of losing 3.5k moral. I'm squishy enough already...

    I have yet to fight any freeps this update so I can't comment on how useful the changes are in actual combat.
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for taking the time to test Samus + rep for that.

    On my server, in my tribe Im expected to DPS but I need to survive the zerg ball. I simply dont want to give up damage thats kind of a deal breaker for me as warg DPS IMHO is &&&& already for a burst damage class. So for me its going to come down to morale for the defense, ill test it this weekend.

    Numbers are good though, a 3500K morale drop and an 8% dps drop. I agree the morale drop is an eye opener. Nice to have some variation in build options though, I can swing from 15-20K morale now and vary the DPS. A good dps build Im hitting pretty hard but man to I burn fast need to form more packs.

    Again thanks for taking the time.

  10. #10
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    Well, wargs are currently hitting my warden with a 6% crit multiplyer. That's without me actually going out of my way and stacking anything.

    If I was to simply swap stances to determination, that becomes 1%. If I stance danced for a buff, critical hits become normal hits.

    If anything they've just slaughtered the 'reliability of critical mechanics' for all the classes who actually needs to use it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    If I stance danced for a buff, critical hits become normal hits.
    There's the problem... freeps can still stance dance, creeps can't (and devs say they made it such). Needs to be fixed imho.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samus1111111 View Post
    There's the problem... freeps can still stance dance, creeps can't (and devs say they made it such). Needs to be fixed imho.
    You can stance dance from Flayer to Shadow as a warg. But not from shadow to flayer.

    That's a decent trade-off in my opinion, considering the passive attributes each stance gives.

    But, when you gate stance dancing to classes like guardians, you only add salt to the wound of an already &&&&ed up situation.



    Getting rid of stance dancing is a negative change in and of itself. It narrows the customization each player has available to them. The only thing they should aim to do to prevent it, is place significant incentive on the stance you are traited for, much like they have on Raid babes over soloers.

    I haven't logged into my warleader this update, but it was incredibly easy to stance dance during RoI. Now, I'm not so sure how it works with Blackarrows, but I've seen some stance dancing happen easily enough. That would cover all creep classes with stances, no?
    Last edited by Untg99; Dec 20 2012 at 02:09 AM.

  13. #13
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    @Samus

    Can you please confirm your base crit magnitude reduction rating before you have slotted any corruptions please? Can you also confirm the value when slotting two crit defence corruptions please?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I haven't logged into my warleader this update, but it was incredibly easy to stance dance during RoI. Now, I'm not so sure how it works with Blackarrows, but I've seen some stance dancing happen easily enough. That would cover all creep classes with stances, no?
    You can stance dance on most Creep classes just fine, but stances have a power cost on both WL & BA (There is not a sinlge Freep class which has power cost on their stances iirc?). So you power will be gone in no time if you stance dance a lot on a WL or BA, which obviously makes it incredibly un effecient.
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  15. #15
    You can also trait for crit defence - something a freep can't do.

    Would you like them to fix this too?
    Massterchief
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathregraw View Post
    I traited today all 6 crit defence corruptions just to try it out, i had only 15k morale, but the crits from freeps were realy low. Here is an example: Random champ scored a critical hit with Remorseless Strike on Kutyaa for 1,080 Beleriand damage to Morale.
    Let me hit you rath I'm sure I'll hit harder ;D
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zlaughter View Post
    You can stance dance on most Creep classes just fine, but stances have a power cost on both WL & BA (There is not a sinlge Freep class which has power cost on their stances iirc?). So you power will be gone in no time if you stance dance a lot on a WL or BA, which obviously makes it incredibly un effecient.
    Exempting the hunter, the other classes stances all significantly change the way many of said classes skillsets work. For creeps, it only acts upon their founding skillsets.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    You can stance dance from Flayer to Shadow as a warg. But not from shadow to flayer.

    That's a decent trade-off in my opinion, considering the passive attributes each stance gives.

    But, when you gate stance dancing to classes like guardians, you only add salt to the wound of an already &&&&ed up situation.



    Getting rid of stance dancing is a negative change in and of itself. It narrows the customization each player has available to them. The only thing they should aim to do to prevent it, is place significant incentive on the stance you are traited for, much like they have on Raid babes over soloers.

    I haven't logged into my warleader this update, but it was incredibly easy to stance dance during RoI. Now, I'm not so sure how it works with Blackarrows, but I've seen some stance dancing happen easily enough. That would cover all creep classes with stances, no?
    You're right, I had forgotten that wl could stance dance. Not sure about BAs.

    However, in order to stance dance from flayer to shadow, we have to actually give up a trait slot and have the Enhanced: Flayer trait equipped (which, imo, is not worth the slot with so many other important things). However, if the devs are going to take a stance on stance dancing (aha aha... ><), then they need to either make it so no one can or so everyone can. None of this, "this class can, but this class can't". I do agree that I prefer being able to since it adds variety to builds and strategies.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    @Samus

    Can you please confirm your base crit magnitude reduction rating before you have slotted any corruptions please? Can you also confirm the value when slotting two crit defence corruptions please?
    Just checked.

    0 crit protection corruptions: 1,200 40.7%
    2 crit protection corruptions: 2,645 50.6%
    6 crit protection corruptions: 5,534 63.0%

    TBH, I think that these numbers are too high and the base crit defense (of wargs at least) should be lowered a bit. 40.7% is a bit crazy.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samus1111111 View Post
    Just checked.

    0 crit protection corruptions: 1,200 40.7%
    2 crit protection corruptions: 2,645 50.6%
    6 crit protection corruptions: 5,534 63.0%

    TBH, I think that these numbers are too high and the base crit defense (of wargs at least) should be lowered a bit. 40.7% is a bit crazy.
    Er, I just checked my own Warg and he has the same CD rating as yours, but the reduction is 22%, not 40.7.

    Not sure what's going on with that. Perhaps you had the Defiler buff on you at the time?
    Last edited by Nyrion; Dec 20 2012 at 11:33 AM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Er, I just checked my own Warg and he has the same CD rating as yours, but the reduction is 22%, not 40.7.

    Not sure what's going on with that. Perhaps you had the Defiler buff on you at the time?
    Ah, you're right... coulda sworn that I had waited it off... oh well, new numbers.

    0: 22.0%
    2: 38.4%
    6: 56.6%

    Ignore my comment about lowering warg's base crit defense.

    Oh, and LFDefiler to spam me with their sick flesh .
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Samus1111111 View Post
    Ah, you're right... coulda sworn that I had waited it off... oh well, new numbers.

    0: 22.0%
    2: 38.4%
    6: 56.6%

    Ignore my comment about lowering warg's base crit defense.

    Oh, and LFDefiler to spam me with their sick flesh .
    DR looks pretty heavy here.

    Base 22.0
    add two corruptions and you get 8.2% per corruption
    add four corruptions and you get 4.55% per corruption

    ^ very rough look at it.

    I'd like to see how this % gets put into the equation. How much would a crit of 1k be reduced by? Does it only apply to the added crit amount or total? How effective is 56.6%?

    In the end I would imagine that as your mitigation reaches a certain DR point then you should start to add crit mitigation. I might work on this some, got a bunch of days off this weekend. No promises.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 20 2012 at 04:29 PM.
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  22. #22
    Alright I got 2 rounds of data with the slugs weak attacks. My inherent crit defense was 29.8%, using a rank 8 reaver, all tests done with 20% relentless.

    ROUND1 = using 0 traits as a base, then 0traits plus 1PMIT, then 0Traits plus 1CMIT.

    Base attack = 122dmg
    1PMIT = 117dmg Difference =5
    1CMIT = 110dmg Difference =12

    ROUND2 = using 3PMIT traits as a base, then 3PMIT traits plus 1 PMIT, Then 3PMIT traits plus 1CMIT. This round represents a more likely trait build.


    Base attack = 108dmg (base attack includes 3 constant PMITS)
    1PMIT = 103dmg Difference = 5
    1CMIT = 97dmg Difference = 12 (actually 11 but only due to small dmg size and rounding, for our sake lets say 12)

    How it works. Crit defense only works on crits, so if we assume every freep has say 20% crit chance, then crit defense will only work 20% of the time. However each mitigation only works half of the time due to mitigations only being physical or tactical mit, so 50% of the time.

    With that in mind here are the values when the difference is applied to the rate it works.
    5 *.50 = 2.5 for mitigations
    12 * .20 = 2.4 for crit defense

    Due to my small dmg size this is within the margin of error for being equal.
    HOWEVER - masteries are a 5 if you can trait for the damage type you are going to encounter.

    Here is how it looks for various freep crit chances
    25%=3
    24%=2.88
    23%=2.76
    22%=2.64
    21%=2.52
    20%=2.4
    19%=2.28
    18%=2.16
    17%=2.04
    16%=1.92
    15%=1.8

    So this means that when your next opponent is unknown, crit defense is better than dual mitigation traiting when the freep crit chance is over 21%. When the next opponent is known then traiting all of 1 mitigation type is far better regardless of the crit rate.

    Someone check my math and logic before anyone believes this is fact.
    Last edited by Armitas; Dec 21 2012 at 08:35 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samus1111111 View Post
    Ah, you're right... coulda sworn that I had waited it off... oh well, new numbers.

    0: 22.0%
    2: 38.4%
    6: 56.6%

    Ignore my comment about lowering warg's base crit defense.

    Oh, and LFDefiler to spam me with their sick flesh .
    I forgot about slick flesh. So potentially, warleaders can get up to ~80% Crit defence.

    Good to know.

 

 

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